Article: Catching No Longer an Option For Mauer

[jokin]

Come on. Below you go on to say he is a HOF career guy. I just don't understand your logic. It still amazes me how people cannot see how exceptional he is as a hitter....at any position.

 

Because he's primarily a singles hitter. Mark Grace would be the prototype for Mauer at 1st, and that type of career ain't going to get it done for the HOF. And Grace actually has a lower percentage of hits being singles than Mauer. 70.2% of Grace's hits are singles, versus 71.2% of Mauer's.

[Steve Penz]

Originally Posted by Steve Penz

Come on. Below you go on to say he is a HOF career guy. I just don't understand your logic. It still amazes me how people cannot see how exceptional he is as a hitter....at any position.

jokin - Today, 12:04 PM

Because he's primarily a singles hitter. Mark Grace would be the prototype for Mauer at 1st, and that type of career ain't going to get it done for the HOF. And Grace actually has a lower percentage of hits being singles than Mauer. 70.2% of Grace's hits are singles, versus 71.2% of Mauer's.

 

 

I would still be happy to have that production at first vs not at all. I hear what others have said about his best value being tied to being a catcher. That may be his best value game to game. What about his best value over the life of his contract? The bat is worthless if not in the lineup. I feel it would be a good business decision for the organization to set up a situation that gives the best chance to maximize that value. At the very least they should shift his time at catcher very, very significantly to the lesser side.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Is there a list anywhere of suspected MLB careers ended or dramatically affected by concussions? Even just anecdotally?

 

I know not much attention was paid to concussions until recently, but given the apparent sudden severity of the Koskie, Morneau, and now Mauer concussions, you would think there would be some evidence of previous occurrences in MLB, at least some flags about generic missed time + sudden severe performance decline.

 

I just can't think of any other examples than those Twins connected ones.

[jm3319]

Because he's primarily a singles hitter. Mark Grace would be the prototype for Mauer at 1st, and that type of career ain't going to get it done for the HOF. And Grace actually has a lower percentage of hits being singles than Mauer. 70.2% of Grace's hits are singles, versus 71.2% of Mauer's.

 

Mauer, compared to the rest of the AL, is 15th in slugging, 9th in OPS, 3rd in OBP, tied for 16th in doubles (which is only 4 away from being 6th, by the way), and 2nd in average.

 

If mauer were a 1B this year, he'd rank 6th in slugging, 3rd in OPS, 1st in OBP, and 3rd in doubles and first in batting average....

 

I realize not all the stats I listed are necessarily power numbers, but it's pretty obvious the dude can hit, and he is far more than a singles hitter. Maybe that 71.2% is due largely to previous seasons, but this year he is clearly not a "singles hitter." Also, Mark Grace had a career BA of .303 while Mauer's is currently .323. This means that while Grace is producing outs at a higher rate than Mauer, Mauer is getting more hits as singles which is inflating his "singles percentage." I'd take the guy getting on base more than the guy who produces outs more often. This means that the comparison to Mark Grace is flawed when comparing just "singles percentage." You'd need to compare guys with identical batting averages.

 

In terms of this silly "value only at catcher" argument, it's pretty obvious this kind of production would be valuable at any position on the diamond.

[jokin]

Mauer, compared to the rest of the AL, is 15th in slugging, 9th in OPS, 3rd in OBP, tied for 16th in doubles (which is only 4 away from being 6th, by the way), and 2nd in average.

 

If mauer were a 1B this year, he'd rank 6th in slugging, 3rd in OPS, 1st in OBP, and 3rd in doubles and first in batting average....

 

I realize not all the stats I listed are necessarily power numbers, but it's pretty obvious the dude can hit, and he is far more than a singles hitter. Maybe that 71.2% is due largely to previous seasons, but this year he is clearly not a "singles hitter." Also, Mark Grace had a career BA of .303 while Mauer's is currently .323. This means that while Grace is producing outs at a higher rate than Mauer, Mauer is getting more hits as singles which is inflating his "singles percentage." I'd take the guy getting on base more than the guy who produces outs more often. This means that the comparison to Mark Grace is flawed when comparing just "singles percentage." You'd need to compare guys with identical batting averages.

In terms of this silly "value only at catcher" argument, it's pretty obvious this kind of production would be valuable at any position on the diamond.

 

It really isn't that silly. Joe has been better at hitting for power, but his percentage of singles in 2013 is still 68.1%, and his triple slash for 2013 is virtually identical to his career averages.

 

I hadn't said that Grace and Mauer were identical, but they are similar, close enough that Mauer would still be at best, a close call for the HOF as a 1st baseman. And their career wOBAs are pretty close- .364 vs. .377 for Mauer (and Mauer will probably fall closer to Grace's wOBA number as he ages).

 

The main point is that there is a distinct dearth of run-producers on the roster. Putting Mauer at first and taking away one of the few positions where a proven run-producer can thrive without hurting the team much defensively will definitely hurt the Twins- I''m not sure what the exact formula would be, but I'm guessing that the Twins would have to significantly raise their team OBP, possibly by as much as 30 points, to offset the loss of yet another run producer in the lineup. As bad a year as Morneau had, by moving Mauer to 1st, you would be replacing Morneau's .323 wOBA with a catcher's wOBA like Hermann's (.281) or Doumit (.309). Signing a proven run producer Morales (.341), Loney (.339) or even a Swisher- (.336) type would help the Twins overall offense substantially.

 

As for an alternative position, think of Joe's .377 wOBA at 3rd versus Plouffe's wOBA there of .306. The League Average wOBA at 1st is .334, at 3rd it's .314- the other Twins in-house options won't even cut close to those numbers. Think of a Morales (career average nearly .350 wOBA) or the Cuban first baseman potentially giving you a .350 wOBA or better number at First Base. That's how this team, in one set of simple steps can get incrementally much better going into 2014. Call Sano up in late June, platoon him at one of the positions or RF, and now you've added a 3rd step to significantly upgrading the run-producing potential.

[YourHouseIsMyHouse]

Come on. Below you go on to say he is a HOF career guy. I just don't understand your logic. It still amazes me how people cannot see how exceptional he is as a hitter....at any position.

 

He's a Hall of Fame guy because of what he's done in the past AS A CATCHER. If he were a 1B his entire career he's not a Hall of Famer at this point. Is it really that hard to understand that 1B hit better than catchers?

2013 Average OPS for 1B: .808

2013 Average OPS for C (Excluding Mauer): .742

 

Mauer's a career .873. His .880 this year is #1 for catchers. #6 for 1B.

[Mike Sixel]

He's useless on the bench, and most catchers decline quickly. I want him out there for years. I don't think anyone is changing their side here......

[YourHouseIsMyHouse]

So a guy who usually is among league leaders in OBP, batting average, and OPS has "hardly any value"? That's shocking news to me. Please tell me, what exactly makes a player valuable if being really good at hitting a baseball and getting on base doesn't mean "value" to you? And don't say "he's overpaid" because the Twins have tons of payroll space and can cover the $23 million, no question.

 

His OPS is .831 while playing 1B and like I said the average is .808 at first. It's clear to see he that he has performed better when catching. Mauer is above average behind the plate defensively and league average at first. Value to me is a player who performs better than 15 other starters and Mauer isn't much above that at 1B.

[cmathewson]

His OPS is .831 while playing 1B and like I said the average is .808 at first. It's clear to see he that he has performed better when catching. Mauer is above average behind the plate defensively and league average at first. Value to me is a player who performs better than 15 other starters and Mauer isn't much above that at 1B.

 

There's a reason catchers who can hit don't often stay at the position beyond 30: They find they can produce more value with their bats than with their gloves. Mauer with fresh hands is an MVP hitter. Catching deadens his hands to the point where he becomes a singles hitter, or rolls over every other swing to the second baseman. I think he'd consistently put up 900+ OPSes at first, which, if you add in his outstanding glove over there, you've got a top-tier first baseman.

 

Before his catching-related injuries this year, I think he was third in WAR in the entire league. And that was while catching four of five games a week.

 

The other thing is, his defense behind the plate is starting to become a liability. Sure, he's been better this year with throws and such. Be he's so tall, umps give up on the low strike as often as not. This is a really bad thing for guys like Kyle Gibson and Scott Diamond, who have to live at the knees.

 

Besides the injury issue, you have to ask: Would the Twins be better with Mauer at first and Pinto behind the plate or Mauer behind the plate and Parmelee/Calobello at first? I think the former. As some have said, Mauer's wishes are irrelevant. Let's make the best team we can with what we have. And I have a hard time believing he wouldn't do what is in the team's best interest.

[TheLeviathan]

It bugs me we feel we can completly bypass having a competent replacement. The proposals here basically are calling for us to go from one position at league average and one well above to one below and one average. And that's if Pinto is only bad defensively and not both.

 

Just not a fan of that with no reliable alternative and no assurance it will extend his career.

[jokin]

It bugs me we feel we can completly bypass having a competent replacement. The proposals here basically are calling for us to go from one position at league average and one well above to one below and one average. And that's if Pinto is only bad defensively and not both.

 

Just not a fan of that with no reliable alternative and no assurance it will extend his career.

 

Not in my proposal. I'm proposing the Twins sign a slugging FA 1st baseman, Mauer to 3rd (w/ a platoon with Plouffe)/PT catcher. You upgrade/maintain ~2.33 positions to significantly above average.

 

(And Brian McCann and Salty are available for big bucks, while Doner Navarro or AJ would be available on the cheap- to get the full 3 position upgrade)

[DJL44]

If even a neurologist can't convince you then you're stubbornly ignoring medical evidence. What Mauer wants IS important. He's not an infant who needs to be protected from harm. He's an adult who can determine if he's willing to take a risk.

[Trev44]

Mod note: nice thread so far. The moderators will be taking a dim view of trolling, so keep up the good work.

Not worth the money at any other position-plain and simple- zero power!

[jokin]

Yeah, the idea that Mauer should go learn 3rd base in his Age 31 season is something out of fantasy baseball, video games, or whatever...but it isn't set in reality.

 

Except for the reality that Josh Donaldson has done it cold turkey and is a plus defender, but not nearly the athlete that Mauer is.... and Joe Torre did it at age 30 virtually cold turkey and was the NL MVP......and Miguel Cabrera did it at 29 and was the AL MVP and Triple Crown winner.......and Killebrew.

 

Donaldson and Cabrera are the #1 and #2 ranked 3rd baseman, and Donaldson ranks 3rd in WAR, with Cabrera #4 overall. Moving there to third opened up options for both clubs to putting more offense on the field. This is not that hard to delineate.

 

And not only can Mauer hit well enough to play third, he would quite likely play it better for most of the entirety of the current contract, than any of the above names, and certainly far better than Plouffe or Sano. Makes a lot of sense to me. (BTW---Colabello returning for anything other than call-up fill-in duty next year would be absolutely shocking.)

[cmathewson]

It bugs me we feel we can completly bypass having a competent replacement. The proposals here basically are calling for us to go from one position at league average and one well above to one below and one average. And that's if Pinto is only bad defensively and not both.

 

Just not a fan of that with no reliable alternative and no assurance it will extend his career.

 

I don't think Pinto is bad offensively or defensively. He's no Pudge or anything, but he's a better hitter than either of the first base candidates. And the combination of him behind the plate and Mauer at first is a better defensive alignment than the combination of one of the first basemen and Mauer behind the plate.

[cmathewson]

Not worth the money at any other position-plain and simple- zero power!

 

A .476 SLG is not zero power. It's among the best at his position. Further, his power is dampened at catcher. When he has fresh hands, it goes about .500, which is elite power.

[Alex]

A .476 SLG is not zero power. It's among the best at his position. Further, his power is dampened at catcher. When he has fresh hands, it goes about .500, which is elite power.

 

Not to mention that his money is moot since it's not keeping the Twins from spending.

[Steve Penz]

He's a Hall of Fame guy because of what he's done in the past AS A CATCHER. If he were a 1B his entire career he's not a Hall of Famer at this point. Is it really that hard to understand that 1B hit better than catchers?

2013 Average OPS for 1B: .808

2013 Average OPS for C (Excluding Mauer): .742

 

Mauer's a career .873. His .880 this year is #1 for catchers. #6 for 1B.

 

It is not hard to understand at all. I was clear on that before this thread was posted. You said, "He hardly has any value if you move him somewhere else." This I do not understand.

 

Early in this thread I said, "His career hitting numbers vs the 1B numbers from the whole league this year would have him 1st in Avg, 2nd in OB% and 6th in OPS. Not to mention that I feel he could step in and contend strongly for a gold glove right away. I'll take it."

 

If that makes him not a HOF player then that stinks but vs not playing due to injury I would prefer he spend most of his time at 1B putting up those numbers.

[KGB]

[besides the injury issue, you have to ask: Would the Twins be better with Mauer at first and Pinto behind the plate or Mauer behind the plate and Parmelee/Calobello at first? I think the former. As some have said, Mauer's wishes are irrelevant. Let's make the best team we can with what we have. And I have a hard time believing he wouldn't do what is in the team's best interest.

 

Agree, the Twins need to do what's best for the team, not what make Mauer more likely to get voted into the HOF or what he wants. I'm sure he wants to win and keeping him on the field and making the best lineup is the best way to do that.

[TheLeviathan]

I don't think Pinto is bad offensively or defensively. He's no Pudge or anything, but he's a better hitter than either of the first base candidates. And the combination of him behind the plate and Mauer at first is a better defensive alignment than the combination of one of the first basemen and Mauer behind the plate.

 

By all accounts Pinto has a long way to go defensively but is working hard, but hes still not nearly as good as Mauer. And i would address 1B in FA, finding an average to above average 1B in FA is easier and cheaper than maybe any other position.

[DJL44]

There are two things a third baseman has to do that a first baseman doesn't have to do.

 

1) Make long throws across the diamond. I am 100% certain Mauer can do that.

2) Charge bunts. That is an open question but Mauer can probably do it as well as A-Rod or Cabrera.

[cmathewson]

By all accounts Pinto has a long way to go defensively but is working hard, but hes still not nearly as good as Mauer. And i would address 1B in FA, finding an average to above average 1B in FA is easier and cheaper than maybe any other position.

 

I'm not convinced Pinto is that big of a downgrade from Mauer, especially with the tall catcher/low strike issue. Yes, he's a downgrade, but not huge. It comes down to risk/reward: The risk of losing your best player maybe forever vs. the small reward in improved defense. Plus I do think he's a better hitter when he doesn't catch, especially multiple games in a row.

[jokin]

I'm not convinced Pinto is that big of a downgrade from Mauer, especially with the tall catcher/low strike issue. Yes, he's a downgrade, but not huge. It comes down to risk/reward: The risk of losing your best player maybe forever vs. the small reward in improved defense. Plus I do think he's a better hitter when he doesn't catch, especially multiple games in a row.

 

Like everyone, I 'm encouraged by what Pinto's done thus far, but it's very premature to seriously be contemplating ensconsing him behind the plate full-time next year. Just last night it was obvious for all to see that Albers and Pinto not only weren't on the same page, they were barely on the same planet in terms of pitch-by-pitch game-planning....and this wasn't the first time we'd seen this. As far as his bat, despite his heroics last night, his overall gaudy numbers are rapidly falling back to earth>>>>ie, his slash over the last 14 days: .244/.292/.444. It remains to be seen if he's a Parmelee/Lou Ford September mirage or the real thing. From what I've seen and read, he's a great kid who wants to learn and is willing to put in the work. At the plate, he uses all fields like an advanced major leaguer and the ball jumps off his bat, but to categorically say that in the Pinto/Mauer "What If?" equation that it's only a slight downgrade by going with Pinto is still very premature.

 

 

Were you referring to Mauer or Pinto in your last sentence? Mauer defies convention, he's clearly better hitting when he catches. In 2013 he had a .330 BA and .901 OPS while catching////.286 BA .810 OPS @ 1st base////.319 BA .854 OPS @ DH. These numbers are similarly indicative of his career stats: .329 BA .889 OPS @ C////.324 BA .831 OPS @ 1st////.308 BA .828 OPS @ DH.

 

If you meant Pinto, his 2013 minor league split between C and DH were virtually identical.

[by jiminy]

I would be curious to hear from those who have advocated him remaining as catcher because of the greater difficulty of finding a catcher who can produce offensively than a first baseman. I wonder if the length of his being sidelined, which is far longer than most people were anticipating, has given them any pause.

 

I'm one of those people, and yes, Nick just convinced me. This injury is a tipping point for me.

 

I have always thought that what made Mauer uniquely valuable was the incredible offensive production he brought to a defensive position. It was almost like having an extra DH: Starting a batting champion at catcher, AND being able to park a slugger at first, is way more valuable than playing him at first. Moving Mauer to first means swapping a hitter like Butera for a hitter like Morneau. That drop off is so huge, I always thought you should drag out his catching as long as possible, or at least phase it out slowly.

 

But this concussion changes everything. Once you have one this bad, you're primed for another. Even a small collision can reactivate symptoms. You saw it with Coskie and you saw it with Morneau. (Both of whom were Canadian, and presumably took a lot of shots to the head playing hockey, leaving them primed for further brain damage.) When you have as much invested in one player as you do in Mauer, it just makes taking that risk even more unthinkable. But the money is minor compared to the physical risks.

 

It was almost worth moving him just to protect his knees, because of that long term contract. But now, playing catcher has become like putting a gun to his head. So to answer your question, yes, this column changed my mind.

[by jiminy]

p.s. This scenario is exactly what made me gnash my teeth when they foolishly, foolishly traded Ramos. The idea that Ramos was expendable because we had Mauer was insane. He was indispensable BECAUSE we had Mauer. Mauer needed to be protected, and he couldn't be properly protected because if he didn't catch, you were stuck with Butera. Dumb, dumb trade.

[Don't Feed the Greed Guy]

Earlier quote by me: "I tend to enjoy and agree with your articles. Not this time. You write, 'And here's another reality we must face: Mauer's days of catching are done.'

 

Reality? Are you sure you want to name reality as a columnist/blogger, or would you be willing to defer to a neurologist?"

 

Nick, you were an accurate predictor of reality. I apologize. Still, It's a sad day when a player with Mauer's tools hangs up his catching gear.

[LaBombo]

Earlier quote by me: "I tend to enjoy and agree with your articles. Not this time. You write' date=' 'And here's another reality we must face: Mauer's days of catching are done.'

 

Reality? Are you sure you want to name reality as a columnist/blogger, or would you be willing to defer to a neurologist?"

[/quote']

 

At which point Mr. Nelson said that he would more or less tell a neurologist who cleared Mauer for catching duty to go stuff himself.

 

It probably makes perfect sense to Nick to think way despite his having dismissively ridiculed people who were critical of the Twins' medical staff in 2012 because they were 'not doctors', but it doesn't to me.