Twins do not sign much internationally

[drjim]

AROG, thanks for the illuminating post. But I'm finding it hard to believe that the industry regards the Twins as being in elite company-one of four-who devote more resources to the international market. I guess what makes me most skeptical is my perception of the Twins' relative presence in the Dominican Republican, the source of more players than any other foreign market. From admittedly a paltry amount of information, I would classify the Twins' Dominican operation as not much better than average.

 

Sure wish the mainstream guys would ask these questions for us.

 

This information is out there if you search for it. The Twins look "average" in the DR because they were a little late there with resources and don't throw money around haphazardly. Twind are leaders in Australia and Europe and strong in other regions.

[YourHouseIsMyHouse]

I'm completely ok with what the Twins are doing. I think the Twins scouting department is much better than BA's and the rankings for both are likely much different. If a player is top 30 on BA and the Twins don't like what they see, they clearly shouldn't sign him. Why should they spend money on players they don't like? Minnesota has been fairly successful the past few years with international prospects and I think they should continue what they are doing. Bill Smith deserves a lot of credit for that. Although, I've begun to sour on Terry Ryan and I'm unsure if the Twins will be as good in this area in the coming years.

[bird]

Bill Smith deserves a modicum of credit for the organization's international success, and certainly far less credit than Terry Ryan, who deserves perhaps 10% of the credit that people commenting here never give to Howard Norsetter, to name one international scout.

[drjim]

Another thing to consider for BA scouting reports is that they obviously don't do it themselves. They gather information from sources with agendas. It is a much shadier market than say the Rule 4.

[AROG]

AROG, thanks for the illuminating post. But I'm finding it hard to believe that the industry regards the Twins as being in elite company-one of four-who devote more resources to the international market. I guess what makes me most skeptical is my perception of the Twins' relative presence in the Dominican Republic, the source of more players than any other foreign market. From admittedly a paltry amount of information, I would classify the Twins' Dominican operation as not much better than average.

 

Sure wish the mainstream guys would ask these questions for us.

 

To go along with drjim, it's not that the Twins were necessarily late to the DR, it's more so the value of the players there. The DR has a population of 10 million, which is like saying that everyone is scouting Georgia (pop. 10 million), because it is the easiest and cheapest to scout but would leave California and Texas and Florida alone. The last few HS players taken the last few years are from Georgia so it must be where all the talent is. Fist and foremost, baseball is a company that is a for profit organization. Since the Twins aren't philosophically going to get into bidding wars unless they are completely sold on the player and that would happen if they kept themselves mainly in the DR like other teams, ie Sano, Buxton, Stewart (which they drafted high knowing they would have to spend a ton just to sign them).

 

I understand your skepticism. I have business owners everyday tell me they can't find good employees and think the only way to do it is to pay more for them. In actuality, it is a recruiting problem, they are trying to find someone like themselves to fill a void and relying on hiring out of the same pool of people as everyone else. If you want the best employee you need to find them in different places.

[diehardtwinsfan]

We paid 3.1 million for him. That's more than our allotted amount for this year isn't it? In any event, you said it's better to spread out risk with these young international signings by getting more mid-tier guys while going for less quantity and more quality in normal free agency. Getting Sano certainly didn't fall under that premise.

 

Nope, this year was 4M...

[Thrylos]

The signing period doesn't end for another 10 months. In that case, isn't it wise to hold some money back, in case some diamond in the rough suddenly emerges out of nowhere?

 

 

This.

Plus another simple practical reason: Several 15 year olds will be 16 within that 10 month period and can sign then, but cannot sign now...

[nicksaviking]

I understand your skepticism. I have business owners everyday tell me they can't find good employees and think the only way to do it is to pay more for them. In actuality, it is a recruiting problem, they are trying to find someone like themselves to fill a void and relying on hiring out of the same pool of people as everyone else. If you want the best employee you need to find them in different places.

 

I understand the analogy in regards to scouting from many regions, but if that bell is ringing from the Twins, it rings a bit hollow considering the reference taken literally is the exact opposite of the Twins philosophy. When hiring and promoting, they do not look in other areas but instead set their gaze within the organization to fill a void with someone who actually is of exctly the same mind as those in charge.

 

The Twins likely do scout Australia better than any other team and are strong in Europe and Venezuala, but I'd trade dominance in two of those regions for a strong presence in the DR because population aside, that's where a vast majority of the talent is.

 

It's nice to be a pioneer and plant a flag down under, but when you consider that the best player from that continet is a contest between Dave Nilsson and Grant Balfour, who have a combined two All-Star game appearneces between them, I'd rather bank on the more productive nation, even if it means battling with other clubs. I think Ryan's passiveness and aversion to going to go toe-to-toe with other GM's is a pretty big issue.

[Jim H]

This has turned into a very good thread. Thank you all who presented some interesting ideas. Especially I appreciate AROG thoughts about the Astros and what they preceive the Twins to be doing. I hope at some point the people here at this site can get someone from the Twins international department to explain their philosophy in the international market. It might be quite different from what the Astros seem to think it is.

 

It seems that what the Twins have been doing internationally is working, although with the rules changing it is hard to say if it will continue to work. The Twins work in Europe and Australia seems to reflect their philosphy of finding toolsy kids who need to be coached up. It might make more sense than overpaying for the DR kids that every team is after. In any case I appreciate most of the thoughts expressed on this thread.

[ThePuck]

Nope, this year was 4M...

 

appreciate the correction...that's why I asked. The attached top article says 3,208,600. The one below it says 3.9. How did it go up?

 

 

Allotment for international signings vital to clubs | MLB.com: News

 

 

The Twins have $3.9 million to spend on international free agents this year, and the $1.4 million for Diaz takes up a large chunk of that, but the Twins are expected to be active in the international market, according to general manager Terry Ryan.

"We'll be active everywhere internationally -- in the Dominican, Venezuela, Europe, Australia, Asia," Ryan said. "Every team has money earmarked for international signings, and we hope to spend it all. It won't just be one guy. It'll be a bunch."

[AROG]

I understand the analogy in regards to scouting from many regions, but if that bell is ringing from the Twins, it rings a bit hollow considering the reference taken literally is the exact opposite of the Twins philosophy. When hiring and promoting, they do not look in other areas but instead set their gaze within the organization to fill a void with someone who actually is of exctly the same mind as those in charge.

 

The Twins likely do scout Australia better than any other team and are strong in Europe and Venezuala, but I'd trade dominance in two of those regions for a strong presence in the DR because population aside, that's where a vast majority of the talent is.

 

It's nice to be a pioneer and plant a flag down under, but when you consider that the best player from that continet is a contest between Dave Nilsson and Grant Balfour, who have a combined two All-Star game appearneces between them, I'd rather bank on the more productive nation, even if it means battling with other clubs. I think Ryan's passiveness and aversion to going to go toe-to-toe with other GM's is a pretty big issue.

 

debating this point seems useless at this point. There is a lot of data available from Forbes to MLB.com about the player development in all the places. I encourage you to look up the data on your own and draw your conclusions from there.

[Oxtung]

Many of you are claiming the Twins have done a nice job with the international market the last few years, and you might turn out to be right, but at this point I think it is a bit early to judge. So far the prospects have a grand total of 267 PA in the majors. I think the same point applies to this years international acquisitions, nothing really will be known about them for several years. Having a highly ranked farm system can give us hope but in the end what matters is what makes it to the majors and succeeds.

[old nurse]

Many of you are claiming the Twins have done a nice job with the international market the last few years, and you might turn out to be right, but at this point I think it is a bit early to judge. So far the prospects have a grand total of 267 PA in the majors. I think the same point applies to this years international acquisitions, nothing really will be known about them for several years. Having a highly ranked farm system can give us hope but in the end what matters is what makes it to the majors and succeeds.

 

If one can't praise the recent signings then you should also chastise those that rip also. If it is to early to tell success, it is to early to lament failure.

[diehardtwinsfan]

appreciate the correction...that's why I asked. The attached top article says 3,208,600. The one below it says 3.9. How did it go up?

 

 

Allotment for international signings vital to clubs | MLB.com: News

 

 

The Twins have $3.9 million to spend on international free agents this year, and the $1.4 million for Diaz takes up a large chunk of that, but the Twins are expected to be active in the international market, according to general manager Terry Ryan.

"We'll be active everywhere internationally -- in the Dominican, Venezuela, Europe, Australia, Asia," Ryan said. "Every team has money earmarked for international signings, and we hope to spend it all. It won't just be one guy. It'll be a bunch."

 

It was always 3.9. I believe they've spent around 3.1, but I could be wrong on that. The dollar amount is assigned based on a "slot" so to speak. The slot is based on how they did last year.

[Oxtung]

If one can't praise the recent signings then you should also chastise those that rip also. If it is to early to tell success, it is to early to lament failure.

 

Let me direct you to this post.

 

And this post.

 

How about this post?

One more?

 

My argument all along has been we know very little about the international prospects. Certainly not enough to judge anything at this point. Good or bad. The same goes for Ryan. He has no history suggesting we should just trust that he will get things right. On the other hand he hasn't had the opportunity or budget to either. So again, we must wait a few years before we really know anything.

[ThePuck]

It was always 3.9. I believe they've spent around 3.1, but I could be wrong on that. The dollar amount is assigned based on a "slot" so to speak. The slot is based on how they did last year.

 

The link that I posted said 3,208,600 though...so I asked. Apparently the article was wrong.

[Major League Ready]

I understand the analogy in regards to scouting from many regions, but if that bell is ringing from the Twins, it rings a bit hollow considering the reference taken literally is the exact opposite of the Twins philosophy. When hiring and promoting, they do not look in other areas but instead set their gaze within the organization to fill a void with someone who actually is of exctly the same mind as those in charge.

 

The Twins likely do scout Australia better than any other team and are strong in Europe and Venezuala, but I'd trade dominance in two of those regions for a strong presence in the DR because population aside, that's where a vast majority of the talent is.

 

It's nice to be a pioneer and plant a flag down under, but when you consider that the best player from that continet is a contest between Dave Nilsson and Grant Balfour, who have a combined two All-Star game appearneces between them, I'd rather bank on the more productive nation, even if it means battling with other clubs. I think Ryan's passiveness and aversion to going to go toe-to-toe with other GM's is a pretty big issue.

 

Promoting from within and scouting multiple regions of the world are two completely separate functions/strategies. One has virtually nothing to do with the other.

 

I can appreciate the Twins loyalty and hiring from within and there are some benefits to that philosophy. Personally, I make sure employees have every opportunity to improve their skillsets and advance. However, you have to believe the organization would benefit from aggressively recruiting the very best from other organizations. I would love to see the Twins go hard after FO / scouting personnel from the Rays, As and Cardinals.

[bird]

Let me direct you to this post.

 

And this post.

 

How about this post?

One more?

 

My argument all along has been we know very little about the international prospects. Certainly not enough to judge anything at this point. Good or bad. The same goes for Ryan. He has no history suggesting we should just trust that he will get things right. On the other hand he hasn't had the opportunity or budget to either. So again, we must wait a few years before we really know anything.

 

Oxtung, I am one of tose willing to trust them based on the current evidence. But I agree 100% with you that until we see more results at the MLB level, it's too early to judge the organization's track record relative to their competors. Old Nurse's point is well taken in that it's too early for both praise AND criticism. Pointing to the current evidence (like Arcia Polanco, Kepler et al) to refute the criticism has substance, especially compared to citing the fact that they "only" got one guy off BA's list and ignoring that they got two guys last year off the same list.

 

Lastly, MLB appears to be seeking more equal distribution of talent. That would imply that all 30 teams would "only" get one player off BA's list, making the silly assumption that BA's list deserves a huge amount of credibility.

[nicksaviking]

Jim Callis says the Rangers and Cubs will only face minor penalties for exceeding their international spending cap. It sounds like they found some kind of loophole. It's behind BA's paywall, does anyone have any more information about this? The rules seemed pretty clear, they should not be able to spend more than 500K next year.

 

I really hope this is still the case and Callis just thinks the restriction is a minor penalty.

[old nurse]

Jim Callis says the Rangers and Cubs will only face minor penalties for exceeding their international spending cap. It sounds like they found some kind of loophole. It's behind BA's paywall, does anyone have any more information about this? The rules seemed pretty clear, they should not be able to spend more than 500K next year.

 

I really hope this is still the case and Callis just thinks the restriction is a minor penalty.

 

While it may be difficult to sign players next year, they can trade slots for prospects. Their pool money doesn't go away. They can sign as many players as they can for 250K, as they may have blown the budget by more than 15%. They can still trade players for this year's money (wouldn't Levi love a Arrietta for Twin's remaining international money trade). Do you think Cuellar and Anderson can fix Arrietta's command issues?

[TheLeviathan]

They can still trade players for this year's money (wouldn't Levi love a Arrietta for Twin's remaining international money trade). Do you think Cuellar and Anderson can fix Arrietta's command issues?

 

Considering 2 of the 3 starts Arrietta has had for the Cubs have been very promising (and one very big clunker) - I'd still say they did pretty well for themselves. A player with even a little bit of promise is worth more than nothing.

 

I don't see fit to keep bringing him up, I'm not sure why you insist on it. I know if I compared a former opening day starter and team top 10 prospect to Pedro Hernandez, I'd probably appreciate any opportunities to avoid that conversation.

[nicksaviking]

While it may be difficult to sign players next year, they can trade slots for prospects. Their pool money doesn't go away. They can sign as many players as they can for 250K, as they may have blown the budget by more than 15%. They can still trade players for this year's money (wouldn't Levi love a Arrietta for Twin's remaining international money trade). Do you think Cuellar and Anderson can fix Arrietta's command issues?

 

Did you read the article? Because the tease made it sound as if they would not incur any substantial penalties. I think most teams would consider not being able to top 250k for an individual player quite a sacrafice.

 

Everyone assumed the Cubs and Rangers liked this free agent class so they decided to go all in despite the hinderence next year. I'm just wondering if for some reason there is less of a penalty than we assumed. Again it is behind the paywall.

[Vervehound]

Did you read the article? Because the tease made it sound as if they would not incur any substantial penalties. I think most teams would consider not being able to top 250k for an individual player quite a sacrafice.

 

Everyone assumed the Cubs and Rangers liked this free agent class so they decided to go all in despite the hinderence next year. I'm just wondering if for some reason there is less of a penalty than we assumed. Again it is behind the paywall.

 

it's just a re-hash of how they were all-in this year because they anticipated the pool being much deeper. also raises the question that they'll have a $4 million pool next year with a cap of $250k/player so they're thinking they may trade their space the other way.

[Oxtung]

it's just a re-hash of how they were all-in this year because they anticipated the pool being much deeper. also raises the question that they'll have a $4 million pool next year with a cap of $250k/player so they're thinking they may trade their space the other way.

 

If it works out that they can way over spend this year acquiring many good/great prospects AND trade their full allotment of millions of dollars next season for other prospects......genius.

[kab21]

There are several loopholes that can explain why the Cubs/Rangers did what they did. And maybe some others.

 

1st - Once you have started incurring penalties then you might as well break the soft cap by as much as possible since the penalties don't get worse as you spend more. IIRC the Cubs signed two top 30 talents after they had spent their allotted money.

 

2nd - you don't lose your cap space the following season so they can trade it away.

 

3rd - The penalties only affect one season. So the Cubs probably signed as many prospects in one year as they would have if they in 2 normal years. Those prospects will also be one year closer to the majors since it takes int'l 16 yr old a long time to make it.

[old nurse]

Did you read the article? Because the tease made it sound as if they would not incur any substantial penalties. I think most teams would consider not being able to top 250k for an individual player quite a sacrafice.

 

Everyone assumed the Cubs and Rangers liked this free agent class so they decided to go all in despite the hinderence next year. I'm just wondering if for some reason there is less of a penalty than we assumed. Again it is behind the paywall.

 

No, I did not go behind the paywall.

1. Story teases are teases to get you to buy. The rules are out there and known. A couple of different stories had mentioned that the Cubs were enamored with this year's class of prospects.

2. Penalties that involve a fine are not restrictive to the Cubs.

3. If there was something earth shattering out there another site would have picked up on it by now.

[old nurse]

Considering 2 of the 3 starts Arrietta has had for the Cubs have been very promising (and one very big clunker) - I'd still say they did pretty well for themselves. A player with even a little bit of promise is worth more than nothing.

 

I don't see fit to keep bringing him up, I'm not sure why you insist on it. I know if I compared a former opening day starter and team top 10 prospect to Pedro Hernandez, I'd probably appreciate any opportunities to avoid that conversation.

 

If the Cubs were looking to trade for international pool money from the Twins Arrietta would be preferable to the soft tossing lefthander Russin. Earlier comenters on Morneau thought that Ryan was looking for near major league ready players. The Cubs lack that in the pitching department, hence those that have shuttled between Iowa and the Cubs.