Vikes @ Curly Lambeau Field 11/23

[TheLeviathan]

I had the details wrong - it was Hockeson who picked him up!

 

[gunnarthor]

30 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

I had the details wrong - it was Hockeson who picked him up!

 

Yep, that was the play. 

[gunnarthor]

5 hours ago, TheLeviathan said:

You keep reducing the success of the GM to wins and losses.  Yes, those matter, but they aren't all that matters.  

If your GM can't draft: you're in trouble.  As pointed out by Nick...we still have more starters that were drafted by Spielman than we do KAM.  There is no way to sugarcoat how TERRIBLE that is.  

You're welcome to your opinion, but you're on the flat earther side of this and trying passionately to argue science.  It doesn't compute man. 

Yeah, wins is a pretty good barometer of success. 

But all the anti-KAM arguments are so nuanced to the point of absurdity. He can't draft, but ignore other young cost controlled talent he's brought in. He can't draft, but ignore that he's willing to trade picks for immediate help. He can't draft, but ignore the teams success. And it also requires people to think he actually drafts, he doesn't, and that the teams actual draft results are atypical of expectations. They aren't. And it requires that you ignore how a team is constructed. But you don't like hearing that so you insult and make more strawmen. 

[TheLeviathan]

4 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

Yeah, wins is a pretty good barometer of success. 

But all the anti-KAM arguments are so nuanced to the point of absurdity. He can't draft, but ignore other young cost controlled talent he's brought in. He can't draft, but ignore that he's willing to trade picks for immediate help. He can't draft, but ignore the teams success. And it also requires people to think he actually drafts, he doesn't, and that the teams actual draft results are atypical of expectations. They aren't. And it requires that you ignore how a team is constructed. But you don't like hearing that so you insult and make more strawmen. 

Rick Spielman was fired 1,414 days ago.  If you strip him of guys like Metellus and give KAM Redmond and anyone else under the sun you want that isn't a veteran FA....Spielman STILL is impacting that 14 win roster last year and this year on a larger level.  By snap count.  By PFF grade.  By impact of any measure you want.  Read that again, the dude fired over 1400 days ago is still having a greater impact.

There is no insult.  No strawman.  I don't need to point out that his draft trades were for a guy in Hockenson we're about to cut with no real benefit gained.  For McCarthy who looks terrible.  For Turner who is significantly behind other guys taken after him.  

No, I don't need to do any of that.  An argument predicated on "Ed Ingram was a hit for the Vikings draft room!" has lost before it began.  That's the stretch of absurdity you ought to really focus on rethinking.

[gunnarthor]

Sporting news is saying that McCarthy was using smelling salts during the game. I don't see it in the video but he does seem to reach into his pocket at the end of the clip and bring something up to his nose? I dunno, if it is it doesn't look good on the Vikings. But he could also just be blowing snot out of a nostril after a big hit. 

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/minnesota-vikings/news/vikings-jj-mccarthy-smelling-salts-concussion/09635103aa3bfb81904da193

[Danchat]

23 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

2) Did sitting and practicing for 11 weeks help?

Interestingly, JJM's best two games at QB have been the Week 1 Bears game and the Lions game... both happening to be after a very long layoff and a 6 week gap. It's almost as if the more he gets settled into playing KOC's system, the worse he performs. He plays his best when they're in no-huddle mode where there is less time for KOC to talk to him in the mic.

JJM's playing like one of the worst QBs of all time, he looks like he's light years away from being a quality starter but I think KOC's complete inability to coach him is a factor. A young player, even a bust of a QB should improve with experience. Is it unreasonable to expect KOC to get him to play at the level of a backup QB even if he doesn't have what it takes to be a starter? They even got him to stop scrambling, which was a big factor in moving the chains in the Lions game. It's the same when Dobbs was QB, KOC got him to stop scrambling and didn't design a single play to take advantage of his running ability and he got worse as he learned the system.

And unfortunately he's also fragile, if it is true he was concussed on the scramble play. That'll be his third injury on a run in his career. I'd like to see if Brosmer's any better, but my suspicion is that KOC isn't very good at mentoring young QBs, he needs a vet to run his scheme. He sure as hell isn't going to adjust to his personnel to his players. It'll be just like the last two games of Darnold, most of JJM and Wentz's games - a lot of holding onto the ball, KOC trying to make him throw deep too often, poorly blocked screens, and no slants.

[Aggies7]

18 minutes ago, Danchat said:

Interestingly, JJM's best two games at QB have been the Week 1 Bears game and the Lions game... both happening to be after a very long layoff and a 6 week gap. It's almost as if the more he gets settled into playing KOC's system, the worse he performs. He plays his best when they're in no-huddle mode where there is less time for KOC to talk to him in the mic.

JJM's playing like one of the worst QBs of all time, he looks like he's light years away from being a quality starter but I think KOC's complete inability to coach him is a factor. A young player, even a bust of a QB should improve with experience. Is it unreasonable to expect KOC to get him to play at the level of a backup QB even if he doesn't have what it takes to be a starter? They even got him to stop scrambling, which was a big factor in moving the chains in the Lions game. It's the same when Dobbs was QB, KOC got him to stop scrambling and didn't design a single play to take advantage of his running ability and he got worse as he learned the system.

And unfortunately he's also fragile, if it is true he was concussed on the scramble play. That'll be his third injury on a run in his career. I'd like to see if Brosmer's any better, but my suspicion is that KOC isn't very good at mentoring young QBs, he needs a vet to run his scheme. He sure as hell isn't going to adjust to his personnel to his players. It'll be just like the last two games of Darnold, most of JJM and Wentz's games - a lot of holding onto the ball, KOC trying to make him throw deep too often, poorly blocked screens, and no slants.

Talk about a quote that will come back to bite him: teams fail young quarterbacks more than young quarterbacks fail teams 

[gunnarthor]

27 minutes ago, Danchat said:

Interestingly, JJM's best two games at QB have been the Week 1 Bears game and the Lions game... both happening to be after a very long layoff and a 6 week gap. It's almost as if the more he gets settled into playing KOC's system, the worse he performs. He plays his best when they're in no-huddle mode where there is less time for KOC to talk to him in the mic.

JJM's playing like one of the worst QBs of all time, he looks like he's light years away from being a quality starter but I think KOC's complete inability to coach him is a factor. A young player, even a bust of a QB should improve with experience. Is it unreasonable to expect KOC to get him to play at the level of a backup QB even if he doesn't have what it takes to be a starter? They even got him to stop scrambling, which was a big factor in moving the chains in the Lions game. It's the same when Dobbs was QB, KOC got him to stop scrambling and didn't design a single play to take advantage of his running ability and he got worse as he learned the system.

And unfortunately he's also fragile, if it is true he was concussed on the scramble play. That'll be his third injury on a run in his career. I'd like to see if Brosmer's any better, but my suspicion is that KOC isn't very good at mentoring young QBs, he needs a vet to run his scheme. He sure as hell isn't going to adjust to his personnel to his players. It'll be just like the last two games of Darnold, most of JJM and Wentz's games - a lot of holding onto the ball, KOC trying to make him throw deep too often, poorly blocked screens, and no slants.

I'm probably a bigger fan of KOC but you do raise some interesting points. That said, I did say that KOC was limited to a type of QB - the pocket passer like Cousins, Darnold, or Mullens. Guys who would stand in the pocket and take a hit, keep their eyes downfield. Thing is, I think JJ is in that mold as well. The first drive in the Ravens game being a good example. But you're right that he does have some run tendency. Still, I think JJ's biggest problem with KOC is that he's not as good in play action. He seems more comfortable in shotgun. But we still have really small sample size issues here but tendency is he's getting worse, not better. 

When he gets to start again, I hope the offense looks more like the Bears game than the Packers game. Let him throw out of shotgun a bit more in longer drop backs. But, regardless, JJ has to be better. The last two games have been pretty hard to defend.

[gunnarthor]

I haven't seen Warner's QB reviews before but this one was pretty good. Explains some of the stuff we all already knew - JJ needs to work on touch v. 100 mph throws and general concerns about his accuracy. But also points out some other mechanical flaws and also minor mistakes made by others (Addison running a route slightly wrong based on corner's leverage) as well as scheme and read progression. Seems to catch a lot in his review. Pretty interesting.

 

[nicksaviking]

On 11/24/2025 at 6:46 PM, gunnarthor said:

Yep, that was the play. 

Might have been this one: