Vikes @ Curly Lambeau Field 11/23

[Vanimal46]

The Rams, even when trading away their 1st round pick every year, manage to find 10 starters in the mid rounds since 2022. Kwesi has 1 starter from the mid rounds (Nailor). 

[Mike Sixel]

35 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

I know this isn't really the point but using stats in this context always bothered me. It's not helpful. It's not an apple to apple comparison. It's comparing 6 games of JJ to everyone else's career. I'd love to see what all 852 QB's EPA was after six games, I'd bet JJ wasn't 851 on that list. 

We did something similar with Berrios after his rough rookie starts, showing he was the worst pitcher ever after his first 10 starts or whatever. 

Outplayed by Sanders yesterday. In his first start. In his first year. Without Jefferson and Addison. 

[gunnarthor]

3 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

The Rams, even when trading away their 1st round pick every year, manage to find 10 starters in the mid rounds since 2022. Kwesi has 1 starter from the mid rounds (Nailor). 

I certainly don't dispute their draft success. It's why they are one of the best orgs. But it's always that one result that KAM haters rely on to attack him, for whatever reasons they have, ignoring everything else that makes the comparison relevant or irrelevant. Since KAM took over - 38-24 v 34-28. Obviously, by the end of the season, the Rams will likely go ahead and also have a third playoff appearance. 

[gunnarthor]

2 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Outplayed by Sanders yesterday. In his first start. In his first year. Without Jefferson and Addison. 

Cool. Is there anything we can learn from that? Or is it just "man, JJ must really suck because" post? 

For instance,

1) Did Stefanski do things that helped him that KOC isn't doing? 
2) Did sitting and practicing for 11 weeks help?
3) Was his offense easier to learn/adapted by the coaches to him?
4) Does the Raiders defense suck?
5) Was Sanders an underrated prospect coming out of college and teams that passed on him will regret it? 

With JJ, we're basically stuck. He needs to play and he's playing really, really badly right now. Not sure how Sanders or Jackson Dart matter unless you're trying to suggest those teams did something else that made their transition easier. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

38 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Are we reading the same message boards?!? Derek Falvey might be as reviled as the Pohlads based on the posts that I've been reading.

Well right, easy to say now.

What about after Falvey’s third season? 100 wins and first round playoff loss, which is pretty much the same as KAM’s third season last season 14-3 and playoff loss. I won’t be defending KAM four-five years from now even with more playoff appearances, yet we still have or had Falvey defenders up until recently. 

[Mike Sixel]

2 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

Cool. Is there anything we can learn from that? Or is it just "man, JJ must really suck because" post? 

For instance,

1) Did Stefanski do things that helped him that KOC isn't doing? 
2) Did sitting and practicing for 11 weeks help?
3) Was his offense easier to learn/adapted by the coaches to him?
4) Does the Raiders defense suck?
5) Was Sanders an underrated prospect coming out of college and teams that passed on him will regret it? 

With JJ, we're basically stuck. He needs to play and he's playing really, really badly right now. Not sure how Sanders or Jackson Dart matter unless you're trying to suggest those teams did something else that made their transition easier. 

I'm suggesting JJ isn't good and should not have been picked. Like nearly every Kam pick. That clearly this team either picked the wrong guy, or they are failing him, as KOC said teamns do all the time. 

 

[gunnarthor]

3 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

I'm suggesting JJ isn't good and should not have been picked. Like nearly every Kam pick. That clearly this team either picked the wrong guy, or they are failing him, as KOC said teamns do all the time. 

 

Cool. 

[Vanimal46]

6 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

Well right, easy to say now.

What about after Falvey’s third season? 100 wins and first round playoff loss, which is pretty much the same as KAM’s third season last season 14-3 and playoff loss. I won’t be defending KAM four-five years from now even with more playoff appearances, yet we still have or had Falvey defenders up until recently. 

Apples and oranges comparison. NFL is a year to year business. MLB is a slower burn. 

[Mike Sixel]

4 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

Cool. 

We disagree, but I'm hard pressed to understand why. 

[Vanimal46]

18 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

I certainly don't dispute their draft success. It's why they are one of the best orgs. But it's always that one result that KAM haters rely on to attack him, for whatever reasons they have, ignoring everything else that makes the comparison relevant or irrelevant. Since KAM took over - 38-24 v 34-28. Obviously, by the end of the season, the Rams will likely go ahead and also have a third playoff appearance. 

Because it’s the only thing that drives sustainable success. If you can’t draft, which Kwesi can not, then you’re doomed for this roller coaster we’re on winning 13 games followed up with a 10 loss season. 

[Aggies7]

This is actually the preferable outcome. With ponder, he was bad but not totally lost so he got multiple years. If McCarthy is not it, it will be much better to know right away. Quarterback purgatory is hell 

[nicksaviking]

10 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

Well right, easy to say now.

What about after Falvey’s third season? 100 wins and first round playoff loss, which is pretty much the same as KAM’s third season last season 14-3 and playoff loss. I won’t be defending KAM four-five years from now even with more playoff appearances, yet we still have or had Falvey defenders up until recently. 

Most fans don't like Falvey because he seems insincere and talks like a huckster. KAM is the complete opposite, he's likeable. However, Favley did build an excellent rotation and bullpen, his problem was that the team didn't develop hitters. But that's baseball; you don't know for 4+ years if the guys you draft will pan out, in the NFL you should know after two years. Hence, KAM absolutely SHOULD have a shorter leash.

[Vanimal46]

6 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Most fans don't like Falvey because he seems insincere and talks like a huckster. KAM is the complete opposite, he's likeable. However, Favley did build an excellent rotation and bullpen, his problem was that the team didn't develop hitters. But that's baseball; you don't know for 4+ years if the guys you draft will pan out, in the NFL you should know after two years. Hence, KAM absolutely SHOULD have a shorter leash.

In the NFL you can finish with the 2nd worst record in the league and end up in the NFC Championship game the following year with a good draft class/free agency. That’s nearly impossible to do in MLB. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

7 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Most fans don't like Falvey because he seems insincere and talks like a huckster. KAM is the complete opposite, he's likeable. However, Favley did build an excellent rotation and bullpen, his problem was that the team didn't develop hitters. But that's baseball; you don't know for 4+ years if the guys you draft will pan out, in the NFL you should know after two years. Hence, KAM absolutely SHOULD have a shorter leash.

Well I don’t disagree it’s not apples to apples but it’s not apples to oranges either. If there are people on this board who see something in JJMc that screams ‘certain bust’ then more power to them.

I think what you said upthread is the most likely outcome at this point—JJMc struggles here but bounces around and catches fire somewhere else. 

[gunnarthor]

27 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

Because it’s the only thing that drives sustainable success. If you can’t draft, which Kwesi can not, then you’re doomed for this roller coaster we’re on winning 13 games followed up with a 10 loss season. 

This is just two opinions pushed as fact. We lost 10 games in 2023 because Cousins went down. If he had been healthy, they would have made the playoffs.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I think going into 2026, McCarthy needs a ton of those pre-season reps, which as people mentioned at the time, is inexplicable he didn’t get many reps this preseason. (Yes that is one of my excuses for him, along with having baby, ankle injury, Oline and funky schedule early on.)

Heck at this rate JJM will more likely than not be the backup going into next season anyway, and backups do get most of the preseason reps. 😁

 

[gunnarthor]

Good article on the game - 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/47078333/nfl-minnesota-vikings-jj-mccarthy-justin-jefferson

On JJ, it points out that "71 quarterbacks have opened their careers with at least six starts over the past decade. McCarthy ranks No. 67 in QBR (25.6) and completion percentage (54.1%), No. 66 in passing yards per game (154.8), No. 52 in off-target throws (20.6%) and No. 69 in interceptions (10) when comparing their first six starts."

[nicksaviking]

12 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

This is just two opinions pushed as fact. We lost 10 games in 2023 because Cousins went down. If he had been healthy, they would have made the playoffs.

And bounced in the first round again. This team is constantly one of the oldest in the league; that's not sustainable, if they want to be a year-to-year contender, they have to start building a strong group of good, young and cheap core players and every year they have to continue to draft good, young, cheap players for when the last crop become expensive free agents.

[Aggies7]

1 minute ago, nicksaviking said:

And bounced in the first round again. This team is constantly one of the oldest in the league; that's not sustainable, if they want to be a year-to-year contender, they have to start building a strong group of good, young and cheap core players and every year they have to continue to draft good, young, cheap players for when the last crop become expensive free agents.

This is as good a year to do it if anything is. I believe we have ten picks? This is one year I wouldn’t mind if they lost out.

But someone else needs to be making the picks.

[Aggies7]

16 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

I think going into 2026, McCarthy needs a ton of those pre-season reps, which as people mentioned at the time, is inexplicable he didn’t get many reps this preseason. (Yes that is one of my excuses for him, along with having baby, ankle injury, Oline and funky schedule early on.)

Heck at this rate JJM will more likely than not be the backup going into next season anyway, and backups do get most of the preseason reps. 😁

 

Every game it becomes more certain they will bring someone in. There is a basic minimum standard that needs to be met with the quarterback. Otherwise it’s not fair to the players and staff. It sounds great in theory to be ultra sucky for a whole year, but games still need to be played and you can’t do that with a guy putting up a high school stat line. If this continues on at its current pace, you may indeed see Brosmer. Not that that’s probably a solution either.

[gunnarthor]

4 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

And bounced in the first round again. This team is constantly one of the oldest in the league; that's not sustainable, if they want to be a year-to-year contender, they have to start building a strong group of good, young and cheap core players and every year they have to continue to draft good, young, cheap players for when the last crop become expensive free agents.

It's a bit odd to argue that the team can't win if they do it differently that how the Rams (for instance) are doing it and, at the same time, have won more games over that period than the Rams. 

[gunnarthor]

1 minute ago, Aggies7 said:

Every game it becomes more certain they will bring someone in. There is a basic minimum standard that needs to be met with the quarterback. Otherwise it’s not fair to the players and staff. It sounds great in theory to be ultra sucky for a whole year, but games still need to be played and you can’t do that with a guy putting up a high school stat line. If this continues on at its current pace, you may indeed see Brosmer. Not that that’s probably a solution either.

It is also possible that McCarthy improves but your general point is right. The last few weeks have been extremely bad. He had a QB rating of 73 after his first 3 games. His last 3 games it's been 47. That's not sustainable at all. So if continues in the sub-50 rating, we will see Brosmer. If he plays better, we won't. 

[nicksaviking]

12 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

It's a bit odd to argue that the team can't win if they do it differently that how the Rams (for instance) are doing it and, at the same time, have won more games over that period than the Rams. 

They haven't won more Super Bowls, and that should be the only goal for this franchise at this point.

They haven't had back-to-back double-digit win season or even back-to-back playoff seasons since 2009 and they haven't had a streak of three such seasons since Denny Green was here. They are not going to be a legit contender until they regularly start getting top playoff seeds and actually start winning those games.

[gunnarthor]

12 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

They haven't won more Super Bowls, and that should be the only goal for this franchise at this point.

They haven't had back-to-back double-digit win season or even back-to-back playoff seasons since 2009 and they haven't had a streak of three such seasons since Denny Green was here. They are not going to be a legit contender until they regularly start getting top playoff seeds and actually start winning those games.

I generally agree but the points you are making don't necessarily support that (and the Rams haven't won a SB in the same timespan either). If Cousins was healthy, they probably win 10 games in 2023 and you have your three straight playoff years. 

[RpR]

Time to put Wentz back in. unless they want to imitate Les Steckel's year again from this point on.

[gunnarthor]

59 minutes ago, RpR said:

Time to put Wentz back in. unless they want to imitate Les Steckel's year again from this point on.

I believe Wentz is out for the entire season. Not the short-term IR that others had been on earlier this year. 

[Vanimal46]

The 3rd injury this season alone that was reported after the game. Missing yet another week of much needed practice. It’s all adding up for him. 

[RpR]

16 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

I believe Wentz is out for the entire season. Not the short-term IR that others had been on earlier this year. 

As one of the radio announcers said: "Put Brosmer in."

[TheLeviathan]

2 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

This is just two opinions pushed as fact. We lost 10 games in 2023 because Cousins went down. If he had been healthy, they would have made the playoffs.

You keep reducing the success of the GM to wins and losses.  Yes, those matter, but they aren't all that matters.  

If your GM can't draft: you're in trouble.  As pointed out by Nick...we still have more starters that were drafted by Spielman than we do KAM.  There is no way to sugarcoat how TERRIBLE that is.  

You're welcome to your opinion, but you're on the flat earther side of this and trying passionately to argue science.  It doesn't compute man. 

[The Great Hambino]

4 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

I generally agree but the points you are making don't necessarily support that (and the Rams haven't won a SB in the same timespan either). If Cousins was healthy, they probably win 10 games in 2023 and you have your three straight playoff years. 

What timeframe are we talking about here?  I've lost track.  Cuz the Rams won the Super Bowl like four years ago