Reusse: Let Gardy go

[Parker Hageman]

So says the Star Tribune's Patrick Reusse:

 

http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/215015351.html

 

It’s time to go, Gardy, for no real reason, other than it’s time to go.

 

{snip}

 

You have no chance for a third straight year, but Jim and Bob Pohlad aren’t their dad, and there’s a huge nut to crack in Target Field. If you figure in the difference in going from receiver to payer of revenue sharing, it’s roughly $60 million more expensive than operating in the Dome.

This generation of the family proved after the 2011 season, in firing Bill Smith as general manager, that it no longer can be loyalty above all else with the Twins.

That’s why you were sent into this season without an extension, and that’s why Ryan would be a pal if he would get together with you on return from New York on Sunday and say, “It doesn’t look good for 2014, Gardy. What do you want to do?”

 

What do you think? Is it best to take him out behind the woodshed and Ol' Yeller him before the end of the season or let him bow out at the conclusion?

[Nick Nelson]

I tend to agree. This slide hasn't been Gardenhire's fault but sometimes change is needed and he's had a great run here. Frankly, although I enjoy Gardy's personality and wit, I'd like to get someone with a bit more of a new-school mindset at the helm to usher in the next wave.

[JB_Iowa]

I have always wanted a graceful parting of the ways. I hoped last summer that Gardenhire would manufacture a brief "health" excuse (need a few months off kind of thing) and leave the Twins gracefully. Obviously that didn't happen and the current limbo is pretty uncomfortable.

 

I really believe that Gardenhire would be better off managing elsewhere (and I do believe he'd get another job relatively quickly). And I also believe that the Twins need a new voice.

 

Let's face it, we all get stale. A change of scenery for Gardenhire would be good for everyone involved. But firing him mid-season would truly be an insult given what he was given to work with. I wish HE would be the bigger man and announce his resignation (either immediately or at the end of the season).

[Winston Smith]

The bigger question on my mind is do the Pohlad brothers really even care what's going on with this team as long as they keep making money?

If the owners were also fans I think things would have changed before now.

[Boom Boom]

If the Twins have decided to let Gardy go, it might be good for the young players to get a feel for a new manager yet this season, but unless the Twins have somebody lined up to take over on more than an interim basis I think they let him play out the rest of the year.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Finish up the year and not renew his contract. I don't think Gardy's expertise is mentoring and developing talent, and this is something he's going to need to do.

[ThePuck]

I've wanted Gardy gone for awhile, since towards the end of the 2007 season. So the fact that people think he shouldn't go because he can't be blamed for the last three years, I don't know.

 

I do find it funny how some can praise Gardy for supposedly doing so much with supposedly so little talent before and now say, well he has so little talent how can he be expected to win more.

[Guest USAFChief]

Find a graceful way and get it done, sooner than later. If he wants to stay on as "manager emeritus" like TK, fine.

[Seth Stohs]

When it comes to blame for what has happened the last two-plus seasons, I'd put Gardy at about 10% of the blame, if that. However, at this point, if they made a change, I wouldn't be outraged by any means.

 

With these rosters, no manager would have this team winning more than 81 games. As Phil Mackey tweeted shortly ago:

 

In the Gardenhire evaluation, you have to ask this -- is there a manager in MLB who would have THIS current team on pace for 90 wins? Or 85?

 

No. People forget, Joe Torre was not considered a 'great' manager until he went to the Yankees and had that roster.

 

But again, if it happened, I wouldn't complain. In fact, I might be happy for him.

[powrwrap]

I do find it funny how some can praise Gardy for supposedly doing so much with supposedly so little talent before and now say, well he has so little talent how can he be expected to win more.

 

I don't know who these people are that you allude to, but consider the talent he had in 2002-2009 or so, and the talent he has now. There's almost no comparison.

 

Santana or Diamond

Milton/Mays/Radke/Baker or Correia/Deduno/Pelfrey/Worley etc.

Cuddyer or Parmelee

Hunter or Span/Hicks

Jones or Arcia

Guzman/Barlett or Nishioka/Carroll/Florimon

Koskie/Punto or Valencia/Plouffe

Castillo/Hudson or Casilla/Dozier

 

My opinion is that Gardenhire has gotten stale, the players are tired of his act, and don't respect and/or listen to him. How sick are we as fans of "battled his tail off", "got to give them credit, that's a good team over there", "we hit the ball hard, but right at someone"? Now consider how sick the players are of hearing his cliches.

 

He's still a good manager, still in the top 10 in baseball.

[StormJH1]

Gardy would find another job given his resume pretty easily. I guess I'm surprised how ambivalent I am about the coaching change issue. Gleeman's list of the only managers to not get fired after 3 straight 90-loss seasons is pretty telling, particularly since half of them managed expansion teams (and one was another Twins coach):

 

 

Larry Rothschild Rays 1998-2000 Felipe Alou Expos 1998-2000 Tom Kelly Twins 1997-2000 Joe Torre Mets 1978-1980 Darrell Johnson Mariners 1977-1979 Preston Gomez Padres 1969-1971 Casey Stengel Mets 1962-1964 Zack Taylor Browns 1948-1951

 

But unlike a lot of fans, I don't really have a huge problem with Gardy's "style" as a manager. The issue that the Twins have been mired in, really for quite a long time, is that they have a culture that really dooms them from evolving beyond what they are. It scares me a bit to think that the new wave of (possibly great) Twins prospects will be exposed to this old school mentality of "always play when you're hurt" and "low risk, low reward" approaches to hitting. Sometimes you just need to shake it up. The sad truth is: how much worse could it really get? 110 losses instead of 95?

[drjim]

The bigger question on my mind is do the Pohlad brothers really even care what's going on with this team as long as they keep making money?

If the owners were also fans I think things would have changed before now.

 

You do realize that if the team was better they would make more money right? They made way more money in 2010 than they will this year. I imagine they would like to return to that.

 

They fired a GM and are about to let the manager go.

[ericchri]

I'm indifferent to when it happens, but I'm in the camp that believes this is his last year managing the Twins. Let him end it how he wants. If he wants to finish the year and "move on gracefully", cool. If he's just worn out with the losing and wouldn't mind "getting fired" so that it doesn't look like he gave up on this team, cool.

 

I think the more interesting question is who replaces him? But that probably ought to have its own thread.

[drjim]

If they did let him go over the break who would take over the rest of the year? There isn't a realistic option in house and not sure who is floating out there.

[nicksaviking]

If there is such a thing as a player who needs new scenery, there certainly is the same for a manager. It would be a sad breakup, but as mentioned, this is getting stale and the tension will rot the ship from the inside out. It's not his fault, but he no longer is likely able to be part of the solution, which makes it a problem.

 

I tend to agree. This slide hasn't been Gardenhire's fault but sometimes change is needed and he's had a great run here. Frankly, although I enjoy Gardy's personality and wit, I'd like to get someone with a bit more of a new-school mindset at the helm to usher in the next wave.

 

I agree, but I wish that would start with the GM. Probably not going to get a new school manager if the GM has no interest in playing baseball in that fashion.

[nicksaviking]

If they did let him go over the break who would take over the rest of the year? There isn't a realistic option in house and not sure who is floating out there.

 

Glynn? If they want someone from the MLB club, I suppose it would have to be Bruno or Vavra.

 

Replacing the manager from outside the organization will cause some issues after this season. Cuellar and Bruno were looked at as solutions with the next wave of talent. If the Twins get a new manager or GM, everyone likely is gone. I want to start fresh with new faces and new ideas, but because the team will likely be reluctant to let new leaders clear out the existing leaders, we're probably stuck with more in-house options going forward.

[Winston Smith]

If they did let him go over the break who would take over the rest of the year? There isn't a realistic option in house and not sure who is floating out there.

 

Steinbach could do the job for the rest of the year. If Red can do it and all the other catchers turned managers Steinbach can for half a year.

[drjim]

Glynn? If they want someone from the MLB club, I suppose it would have to be Bruno or Vavra.

 

Replacing the manager from outside the organization will cause some issues after this season. Cuellar and Bruno were looked at as solutions with the next wave of talent. If the Twins get a new manager or GM, everyone likely is gone. I want to start fresh with new faces and new ideas, but because the team will likely be reluctant to let new leaders clear out the existing leaders, we're probably stuck with more in-house options going forward.

 

I still think Molitor is the likely manager next year. Any move now should be made with the idea of making that transition as smooth as possible. I don't think bringing him in iver the break is a wise move.

 

Glynn is an asset in the organization. It would be hard to move him to manager for a half season and then demote him.

 

I also don't especially want the Scott Ullger show, which might be the best alternative in house. Not sure who from the outside would be willing to come in for 3 months and try to clean up this mess.

 

Best option is probably just let Gardy ride it out.

[TheLeviathan]

Put me 100% in the Molitor camp. We have watched fifteen years of "slap and run" hitters that have largely been absent the "run" half.

 

With Dozier, Hicks, Kepler, Buxton, and Rosario all as potential base path terrorists....I'd like someone better at this element of the game personally. Molly just has everything I look for in a manager from a personality standpoint.

[drjim]

Put me 100% in the Molitor camp. We have watched fifteen years of "slap and run" hitters that have largely been absent the "run" half.

 

With Dozier, Hicks, Kepler, Buxton, and Rosario all as potential base path terrorists....I'd like someone better at this element of the game personally. Molly just has everything I look for in a manager from a personality standpoint.

 

Yes to all of this. He is a hall of famer and a local guy. He is probably the only chance the franchise will have to generate positive buzz after three disastrous years. It could be fun to watch him emerge with a young core.

[Willihammer]

Here's a name that I will just toss out there if anyone cares to respond: Sandy Alomar.

 

He mopped up the tail of the Indians 2012 season and is pretty well regarded within the Indians organization. He was considered the 2nd choice only to Tito Francona to take over full-time, former catcher, bilingual. Besides that, I know nothing about him, his philosophy, bullpen management, whether he'd employ defensive shifts, etc.

[cmb0252]

If something does happen put me in the get someone from outside of the organization camp. I'm all for loyalty but at some point this organization needs to bring in some fresh blood with different ways of thinking.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Ah.... Memories of '98-2001. The current situation seems awefully similar to 2001. If history repeats itself, the 2014 manager is ... Bruno?

[Dman]

I just always figured they would never blame him for this mess and bring him back no matter what since the team appears it will be good in the near future. I certainly don't see them replacing him mid year unless he resigned. The Twins are too loyal and there doesn't appear any dire need to change managers before the end of the year.

 

Even if they get a new manager they are going to be bad again next year because it is going to take awhile for the pitching to turn around and they need to incorporate Sano, Buxton and Rosario into MLB players. It will likely be 2015 or 2016 before this team starts to rise from the ashes.

 

I like Gardy but the timing is right for both parties to part ways.

[TheLeviathan]

Yes to all of this. He is a hall of famer and a local guy. He is probably the only chance the franchise will have to generate positive buzz after three disastrous years. It could be fun to watch him emerge with a young core.

 

Exactly and he seems perfect when youlisten to him talk in interviews about his work with prospects. he has that unique ability to be critical but constructively rather than negatively.

[nicksaviking]

If we must go within the organization, I'd choose Molitor too. However I would prefer an outside presence. Things are stale with this club, and it's not just because of Gardenhire.

 

If the team won't spend on free agents, put that money into the GM position. Go buy Andrew Freidman, he only goes year-to-year with his deal in TB. Make him an offer he can't refuse. He might promote former TB front office mate Gene Glynn. That would be some continuity that some people crave.

[ThePuck]

I don't know who these people are that you allude to, but consider the talent he had in 2002-2009 or so, and the talent he has now. There's almost no comparison.

 

Santana or Diamond

Milton/Mays/Radke/Baker or Correia/Deduno/Pelfrey/Worley etc.

Cuddyer or Parmelee

Hunter or Span/Hicks

Jones or Arcia

Guzman/Barlett or Nishioka/Carroll/Florimon

Koskie/Punto or Valencia/Plouffe

Castillo/Hudson or Casilla/Dozier

 

My opinion is that Gardenhire has gotten stale, the players are tired of his act, and don't respect and/or listen to him. How sick are we as fans of "battled his tail off", "got to give them credit, that's a good team over there", "we hit the ball hard, but right at someone"? Now consider how sick the players are of hearing his cliches.

 

He's still a good manager, still in the top 10 in baseball.

 

Did you see anywhere where I said that it was my belief he had so little talent when they were winning? I made sure to put supposedly, because, for me, I think most of his first 8, 9 years we had more talent than any team in our division.

 

But if you haven't seen over the last two-plus years where people defend Gardy by saying how great of a manager he is because he did so well with so little talent before and then turn right around and say he can't be expected to win with so little talent, I don't know what to say. I see it a lot.

[ThePuck]

Gleeman's list of the only managers to not get fired after 3 straight 90-loss seasons is pretty telling, particularly since half of them managed expansion teams (and one was another Twins coach).

 

 

 

How big of a list do you think it is of managers who have not gotten fired after managing their team to 12 straight playoff losses? :-)

[ThePuck]

Again, I want someone like Ryne Sandberg. Someone not affiliated with the current team at all.

[powrwrap]

Did you see anywhere where I said that it was my belief he had so little talent when they were winning?

 

No, I didn't. And I didn't say you were one of these people. I said I didn't know who they are.

 

But if you haven't seen over the last two-plus years where people defend Gardy by saying how great of a manager he is because he did so well with so little talent before and then turn right around and say he can't be expected to win with so little talent, I don't know what to say. I see it a lot.

 

I haven't been hanging out around here much this year. The arguments are so predictable around here they ought to be numbered. Then we wouldn't waste so much time typing things. Imagine:

 

Poster XYZ: Argument number 1!

Poster ABC: Argument number 1 has been totally counterpointed by argument 12!

Poster IJK: Three, I tell you three!

Poster RST: Three was disproven by Number 27 in August of 2011.

 

etc. etc.

 

I see you've made over 2,000 posts in less than a year so I believe you when you say you've seen the Gardy/talent argument made before.