Chargers @ Vikings 10/23/25

[Aggies7]

8 minutes ago, Parfigliano said:

It all sounds like high school mean girl politics.

So much on the line if you draft a QB who ends up not working out. GM for sure gone. Coach and staff probably gone too. Maybe not this year but soon. Look at the remaining schedule and tell me where the games are in which the Vikings will be favored? If JJ struggles badly, it’s gonna get ugly as hell around here.

[gunnarthor]

Worst part of this is now we have to 1) wait 10 days for the Vikings to play again and 2) root for Aaron Rodgers  this weekend. Blech. 

[TheLeviathan]

11 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

Something is weird. None of us are doctors so it’s hard to say someone should be recovered by now, but the guy got hurt on September 14 and finished the game. It’s now October 23. There’s no way, if he’s healthy, AND better than Carson wentz, that he wouldn’t be playing by now. He’s not the first QB to be injured in season. How much practice is he expected to have before he can play? NFL QBs don’t do rehab assignments. 
 

It’s very possible that the people who have seen him the most know that he’s not it. There didn’t seem to be any urgency in bringing him back, and wentz was basically in a sling to START the game. And then leaving him in to take that abuse in a blowout? Didn’t understand it at all.

Ankle sprains aren't an easy injury though.  When you're talking about a quarterback who is already being worked on for his footwork/mechanics....I understand patience in getting him on the field.

The problem I think is the messaging around "why" to the public.  Just say that he's not healthy enough to play.  Keep it as simple as that.  Instead KOC is talking about "full week of practice" and whatever other stuff.

[Mike Sixel]

23 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

Ankle sprains aren't an easy injury though.  When you're talking about a quarterback who is already being worked on for his footwork/mechanics....I understand patience in getting him on the field.

The problem I think is the messaging around "why" to the public.  Just say that he's not healthy enough to play.  Keep it as simple as that.  Instead KOC is talking about "full week of practice" and whatever other stuff.

He had no issue getting Wentz permanently injured that night. 

[Mike Sixel]

This team is bereft of talent. Every off season decision, except maybe drafting Jackson, was wrong. The bad drafts are catching up to them, clearly. Relying on Smith was predicted by many to be a mistake, and they doubled down by letting bynum go. 

Trade everyone but JJ, JJ, Jackson, and Mason. Blow it up. Or someone what in charge of the draft. Find a play caller that isn't cute on third down. 

[Aggies7]

41 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

This team is bereft of talent. Every off season decision, except maybe drafting Jackson, was wrong. The bad drafts are catching up to them, clearly. Relying on Smith was predicted by many to be a mistake, and they doubled down by letting bynum go. 

Trade everyone but JJ, JJ, Jackson, and Mason. Blow it up. Or someone what in charge of the draft. Find a play caller that isn't cute on third down. 

New GM in the offing?

[Mike Sixel]

1 minute ago, Aggies7 said:

New GM in the offing?

No chance. As pointed out, they've won a lot of games the last few years. But, imo, the awful drafts are catching up to them. And, in fairness, the OL is decimated. 

It's all in McCarthy at this point. He's either awesome, or the while thing is over for this FO on two years. 

[Cap'n Piranha]

28 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

This team is bereft of talent. Every off season decision, except maybe drafting Jackson, was wrong. The bad drafts are catching up to them, clearly. Relying on Smith was predicted by many to be a mistake, and they doubled down by letting bynum go. 

Trade everyone but JJ, JJ, Jackson, and Mason. Blow it up. Or someone what in charge of the draft. Find a play caller that isn't cute on third down. 

It's too early to call for the blowup...yet.  McCarthy needs to start the next 10 games unless he is actually injured, which means he's going to need to play hurt at some point.  Far and away the most important thing for the future of the Vikings is finding out if McCarthy is an actual decent NFL QB; that is more important than making the playoffs this year.  If it turns out he's making strides, and you feel like you have your guy, then do everything you can to build around him.  If he's not, then you go scorched Earth, commit to the tank, and let a new GM draft a QB at 1:1 in April 2027 after you spent the 2026 draft building infrastructure on the O-Line; as an ND fan, I'm hoping for CJ Carr.

[gunnarthor]

28 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

This team is bereft of talent. Every off season decision, except maybe drafting Jackson, was wrong. The bad drafts are catching up to them, clearly. Relying on Smith was predicted by many to be a mistake, and they doubled down by letting bynum go. 

Trade everyone but JJ, JJ, Jackson, and Mason. Blow it up. Or someone what in charge of the draft. Find a play caller that isn't cute on third down. 

Other than being very defeatist, "blowing it up" never works.  

The Vikings are having a bad year but could also easily be 5-2. It's football, "any given Sunday" and all. Hopefully they can get healthy and have JJ back under center and we can see what kind of offense this team can manage. 

[Mike Sixel]

9 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

Other than being very defeatist, "blowing it up" never works.  

The Vikings are having a bad year but could also easily be 5-2. It's football, "any given Sunday" and all. Hopefully they can get healthy and have JJ back under center and we can see what kind of offense this team can manage. 

They could also have zero wins. This team is closer to awful than good, and needs to cut payroll n next year....

[Cap'n Piranha]

18 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

Other than being very defeatist, "blowing it up" never works.  

The Vikings are having a bad year but could also easily be 5-2. It's football, "any given Sunday" and all. Hopefully they can get healthy and have JJ back under center and we can see what kind of offense this team can manage. 

Definitely true.  No team has ever improved by getting high draft picks and using those to draft the stars that lead them to playoff contention and superbowls.

[gunnarthor]

9 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

They could also have zero wins. This team is closer to awful than good, and needs to cut payroll n next year....

Nah, the Bengals game was a blowout for us. But no, I think this team is much closer to really good than awful, but we gotta get a healthy line and JJ behind center. Let's see what they look like after that. 

[Cap'n Piranha]

1 minute ago, gunnarthor said:

Nah, the Bengals game was a blowout for us. But no, I think this team is much closer to really good than awful, but we gotta get a healthy line and JJ behind center. Let's see what they look like after that. 

Did we watch the same game last night?  Outgained 419 yards to 164.  29 first downs to 12.  39 TOP to 21.  7.9 Y/Pass to 3.6.  4.8 Y/Rush to 3.1.  And before you pull the O-line health excuse, remember that LA played without their best lineman last night (Slater) and lost another partway through the game, and still destroyed our defense, which is supposedly the best part of our team.  Let's also not pretend like McCarthy is a lock to be even a competent QB, let alone a good one.  There's a lot more tape that shows a bad QB than shows a good one.

Your point is fair, the Vikings probably would never be a 0 loss team, but they're much, much closer to 1-6 than 5-2, and still have the most difficult schedule in the NFL coming up.  The team could play significantly better, and still pretty easily lose 4-6 more games (would anyone be shocked if there were 4 losses across the 8 following games--Det x2, GB x2, Sea, Was, Chi, Bal)?

[Cap'n Piranha]

18 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

They could also have zero wins. This team is closer to awful than good, and needs to cut payroll n next year....

This doesn't get mentioned enough, Kwesi spent 2 offseasons getting a bad cap situation back under control--and then immediately undid all of that.  The Vikings are 32nd in cap space for 2026, 29th in 2027, and 23rd in 2028.  When your only path to improvement is big signings in FA, and you have essentially no ability to do that for 2 more years, and you're already not a playoff team...

It's not hard to see where this is going unless you insist on Ostrichism.

[Aggies7]

16 minutes ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

Did we watch the same game last night?  Outgained 419 yards to 164.  29 first downs to 12.  39 TOP to 21.  7.9 Y/Pass to 3.6.  4.8 Y/Rush to 3.1.  And before you pull the O-line health excuse, remember that LA played without their best lineman last night (Slater) and lost another partway through the game, and still destroyed our defense, which is supposedly the best part of our team.  Let's also not pretend like McCarthy is a lock to be even a competent QB, let alone a good one.  There's a lot more tape that shows a bad QB than shows a good one.

Your point is fair, the Vikings probably would never be a 0 loss team, but they're much, much closer to 1-6 than 5-2, and still have the most difficult schedule in the NFL coming up.  The team could play significantly better, and still pretty easily lose 4-6 more games (would anyone be shocked if there were 4 losses across the 8 following games--Det x2, GB x2, Sea, Was, Chi, Bal)?

Yeah, wentz has gotten a lot of the focus and not unjustly, but the rest of the team was awful. LA scored on every drive except the interception and missed FG. The defense was god awful. Now top ten in team penalties when they were middle of the pack in 24. No impressive wins. I don’t count the bengals as in impressive win.

[Cap'n Piranha]

5 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Yeah, wentz has gotten a lot of the focus and not unjustly, but the rest of the team was awful. LA scored on every drive except the interception and missed FG. The defense was god awful. Now top ten in team penalties when they were middle of the pack in 24. No impressive wins. I don’t count the bengals as in impressive win.

Yup, only wins are against a Bears team in their 1st game in a new regime, a Bengals team that just lost it's star QB and played maybe the worst offensive game in NFL history, and a Browns team that is completely dysfunctional (with the massive travel advantage baked in).  I'm not willing to say there's no hope left for this year, but we're getting really close to that point, and the upcoming gauntlet of games (@DET, BAL, CHI, @GB, @SEA), I'm much more inclined to think the Vikings will be 3-9 than at/above .500; in other words, 0-5 in the next 5 weeks is more likely I think than 3-2.

[nicksaviking]

Strong possibility the Vikings will not be favored in another game this year. If Jackson is still somehow out, then they will vs Baltimore.

Maybe home vs Washington, but not if the Vikings are on a seven game losing streak.

[Parfigliano]

2 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

This team is bereft of talent. Every off season decision, except maybe drafting Jackson, was wrong. The bad drafts are catching up to them, clearly. Relying on Smith was predicted by many to be a mistake, and they doubled down by letting bynum go. 

Trade everyone but JJ, JJ, Jackson, and Mason. Blow it up. Or someone what in charge of the draft. Find a play caller that isn't cute on third down. 

I'd rather be GM for TC.

Kwesi sucks.  Said it 2 years ago.  Got grief.  

[Mike Sixel]

1 minute ago, Parfigliano said:

I'd rather be GM for TC.

Kwesi sucks.  Said it 2 years ago.  Got grief.  

You've been consistent! 

[Parfigliano]

1 hour ago, Aggies7 said:

New GM in the offing?

I'd have to come out of retirement and move to MN.

[The Great Hambino]

11 hours ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

I honestly am starting to think that there is a Spielman/Zimmer level rift between KOC and KAM.  I don't think KOC ever wanted McCarthy--here's what I think went down.

KAM trades for the Texans 2024 first well before the draft as a gambit to move up to select Drake Maye.  He either didn't verify with the Patriots what they would want for 1-3, or didn't make the trade with the Texans conditional upon completing a trade with NE for 1-3, which sent KAM into panic mode, forced him to take JJ, and started the rift.

After the 2025 season, KOC wants a veteran QB; whether that's retaining Darnold or Jones, or bringing in Rodgers, KOC doesn't want McCarthy as his starter.  To force KOC's hand, KAM trades Howell just before the season starts, and signs a washed up journeyman in Wentz to be the backup.

McCarthy plays the quarter of his life against the Bears, but has been truly awful in every other quarter--he's averaging barely 30 yards passing a quarter outside of that 4th quarter.  When McCarthy mentions he's hurt, KOC sees his chance--he insists on the longest possible recovery timeline, and then holds him out even when he could play.

I'm not sure I'm ready to dive into the deep end of this pool quite just yet ... but the Texans trade was weird at the time and seems even weirder now.  

There's a reason most trades of picks (not vet for a pick, I'm talking a straight up pick swap) happen during the draft right before the pick gets made.  Usually, the team trading down is on the clock when the trade is made official.  This is because the team trading up needs to know that the player they're targeting is actually available.

But the Texans trade happened in March.   It didn't really make sense in a vacuum; something else must've fallen apart.  A move for Maye does seem like the most plausible next step, but that - or whatever else it was - obviously didn't materialize.   Then on draft night, they traded up targeting Turner specifically, like a team usually would.  I don't blame them - at the time, he was neck-and-neck with Jared Verse for my favorite defensive player in the draft.  In hindsight, that's not looking like too hot a choice, but at least that one did make sense in a vacuum.

You generally are paying a premium when you trade up because you think your target is worth it.  But the way it ended up working out, Kwesi effectively paid the premium twice to end up with Turner.  There's no way that was the actual plan; Plan A had to have fallen through, and it feels like they've been scrambling to make up for it ever since.  That offseason had been going great in terms of player acquisition before the draft, but we might look back on that chain of trades as an inflection point; acquisitions haven't really been going to plan ever since.  The 2025 free agent crop has not been receiving passing marks, and while the 2025 draft is obviously too early to tell, I don't think anyone would say that the crop has blown expectations out of the water.

I don't think they're doomed.  The NFL cap is a funny thing.  The Vikings looked doomed on that front post-Cousins, but they didn't fall apart.  The Saints turned finding cap space out of thin air into an art form (they might be paying for that now, but they extended a semi-competitive window way further than it seemed like they could).  But they're back to having to thread that needle all over again.  They have options - there are currently six guys that could generate eight-figure cap savings with a post-June 1 cut next season (O'Neill, Greenard, Hockenson, Van Ginkel, Hargrave, Kelly).  They obviously won't cut all of them, and some could be painful, but they're not doomed.

Unless JJ isn't the guy.  Then they're screwed.  No pressure kid!

[Aggies7]

Was an explanation given as to why wentz was left in to absorb more abuse in a game that was long lost? I’m really curious about that because KOC gives off the vibe that he’s a very player-friendly coach and that was just bizarre and seemingly unnecessary. A conspiracy theorist (which I am not) might suggest he didn’t want to show any inkling that Brosmer could be competent in case McCarthy is really as bad as he showed, but that seems far-fetched. It was just out of character for KOC. That’s something Mike Zimmer would have done.

[Mike Sixel]

4 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Was an explanation given as to why wentz was left in to absorb more abuse in a game that was long lost? I’m really curious about that because KOC gives off the vibe that he’s a very player-friendly coach and that was just bizarre and seemingly unnecessary. A conspiracy theorist (which I am not) might suggest he didn’t want to show any inkling that Brosmer could be competent in case McCarthy is really as bad as he showed, but that seems far-fetched. It was just out of character for KOC. That’s something Mike Zimmer would have done.

That would require a press that asked actual questions. We know that doesn't exist anymore. 

[TheLeviathan]

To the previous conversation....what would blowing it up even look like?

The Vikings don't have many expiring assets that are playing well.  I guess I see the following issues:

1) The run defense is horrific.  I'm too busy to break down the problems but we're getting absolutely gashed.  Inside, Outside, Counter.  Traps seem to be a major tool against us this year.  The point of attack is being driven backward.  I was on board with Hargrave and Allen but they've been bad.  I'm not sure how to fix this other than to reiterate something I was saying last year: this team needs a true nose tackle.  This scheme doesn't work without one on early downs.  

I think one and done for the guys they brought in last year is the only course of action.

2) Defensive Backs - this secondary is shallow.  We need another safety (wish we had Kyle Hamilton about now) and a third corner that can actually cover when we move Murphy around.  Time for Harrison to retire.

3) Clock is ticking on Turner.  He's young but I don't see the disrupting force.  And if he's not it....then Greenard needs someone on the other flank.

4) Linebackers - can't cover.  Can't tackle.  Aren't blitzing well.  That whole group is a mess.

5) Donovan Jackson looked lost out there last night.  Stunts were getting the better of him over and over.  That may have to do with the center and the mess of a situation there, but if that pick flops we are back to near zero with our o-line.  Fries, Darrisaw, and O'Neill are fine but the middle is still squishy.

6) Run Jordan Mason.  Then run him again.  And then maybe again.  Make sure to follow this prescription in the redzone.  3rd and 1?  Not tiem for JJ in the backfield.....hand it to the hammer.

7. Cut Hockenson.  It's over.

8. Addison is really, really good but you can trade him for a first and more.  Use your (likely) high second rounder on a WR.  Most of what Addison does well comes from being able to work against softer coverages.  

Man that hurt to type.  Team is a mess.

[Mike Sixel]

4 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

To the previous conversation....what would blowing it up even look like?

The Vikings don't have many expiring assets that are playing well.  I guess I see the following issues:

1) The run defense is horrific.  I'm too busy to break down the problems but we're getting absolutely gashed.  Inside, Outside, Counter.  Traps seem to be a major tool against us this year.  The point of attack is being driven backward.  I was on board with Hargrave and Allen but they've been bad.  I'm not sure how to fix this other than to reiterate something I was saying last year: this team needs a true nose tackle.  This scheme doesn't work without one on early downs.  

I think one and done for the guys they brought in last year is the only course of action.

2) Defensive Backs - this secondary is shallow.  We need another safety (wish we had Kyle Hamilton about now) and a third corner that can actually cover when we move Murphy around.  Time for Harrison to retire.

3) Clock is ticking on Turner.  He's young but I don't see the disrupting force.  And if he's not it....then Greenard needs someone on the other flank.

4) Linebackers - can't cover.  Can't tackle.  Aren't blitzing well.  That whole group is a mess.

5) Donovan Jackson looked lost out there last night.  Stunts were getting the better of him over and over.  That may have to do with the center and the mess of a situation there, but if that pick flops we are back to near zero with our o-line.  Fries, Darrisaw, and O'Neill are fine but the middle is still squishy.

6) Run Jordan Mason.  Then run him again.  And then maybe again.  Make sure to follow this prescription in the redzone.  3rd and 1?  Not tiem for JJ in the backfield.....hand it to the hammer.

7. Cut Hockenson.  It's over.

8. Addison is really, really good but you can trade him for a first and more.  Use your (likely) high second rounder on a WR.  Most of what Addison does well comes from being able to work against softer coverages.  

Man that hurt to type.  Team is a mess.

I agree, hard to blow it up. A lot of my commentary about it is hyperbole (I hope obviously), but man, there isn't much here to really love at all. Which is really the issue here. There isn't much of anything they can trade......

Hockenson and Addison should be traded, IMO. That's about it for useful assets they can deal, I think. Which is unreal. Maybe the RT, but I doubt it. Also, the replacements might get JJ killed.

As for Jackson, I think we are seeing there is a coaching issue here with the OL.......

[gunnarthor]

11 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

To the previous conversation....what would blowing it up even look like?

The Vikings don't have many expiring assets that are playing well.  I guess I see the following issues:

1) The run defense is horrific.  I'm too busy to break down the problems but we're getting absolutely gashed.  Inside, Outside, Counter.  Traps seem to be a major tool against us this year.  The point of attack is being driven backward.  I was on board with Hargrave and Allen but they've been bad.  I'm not sure how to fix this other than to reiterate something I was saying last year: this team needs a true nose tackle.  This scheme doesn't work without one on early downs.  

I think one and done for the guys they brought in last year is the only course of action.

2) Defensive Backs - this secondary is shallow.  We need another safety (wish we had Kyle Hamilton about now) and a third corner that can actually cover when we move Murphy around.  Time for Harrison to retire.

3) Clock is ticking on Turner.  He's young but I don't see the disrupting force.  And if he's not it....then Greenard needs someone on the other flank.

4) Linebackers - can't cover.  Can't tackle.  Aren't blitzing well.  That whole group is a mess.

5) Donovan Jackson looked lost out there last night.  Stunts were getting the better of him over and over.  That may have to do with the center and the mess of a situation there, but if that pick flops we are back to near zero with our o-line.  Fries, Darrisaw, and O'Neill are fine but the middle is still squishy.

6) Run Jordan Mason.  Then run him again.  And then maybe again.  Make sure to follow this prescription in the redzone.  3rd and 1?  Not tiem for JJ in the backfield.....hand it to the hammer.

7. Cut Hockenson.  It's over.

8. Addison is really, really good but you can trade him for a first and more.  Use your (likely) high second rounder on a WR.  Most of what Addison does well comes from being able to work against softer coverages.  

Man that hurt to type.  Team is a mess.

Not going to address everything but on a different site someone posted that last year the Vikings ran more traditional 3-4 packages and then dropping Pace and bringing in Metallus against the pass as the base defense. But this year, they've done a bit more 4-3 and Redmond is a good "3 technique" guy but Hargrave isn't playing well enough to demand double teams and that puts the linebackers a bit out of position to watch the cut-back lanes. Essentially, the injuries to Cashman and Van Ginkel and Pace playing worse has really hurt the linebacking corp (and they thought Turner was fine). To get better the vets (Allen and Hargrave) have to start playing better. Both have been MIA this season. 

Secondly, I don't think Addison has 1st/2nd round trade value.

Lastly, Jackson didn't have a great game but (and I may have missed something) he isn't being physically outmatched. He's learning the difference between NFL caliber and college caliber pass rushing. So I'm not quite as worried about him, so long as he can stay healthy. But a new o-line coach might be an off-season priority. 

[Aggies7]

Vikings have had the easiest schedule in the league to date, and finish with the most difficult 😳 

 

[Vanimal46]

I was in the car driving today and heard KOC's press conference during Barreiro's show. First, he channeled his inner Christian Ponder saying things were correctable on tape. But I was thoroughly disappointed with the softball questions thrown at him by reporters. No one asked why Wentz remained in the game until it was 99,99% over when he was in clear pain throughout the game.

Some woman idk who it was literally asking KOC "How much does it help that everybody's going to stick together during a difficult time like this?" And he spouted off for 5 minutes about how we have such a tight knit team. Ridiculous.

[Parfigliano]

11 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

You've been consistent! 

I've been proven right.  2 years ago pre draft Kwesi should have been gone, gone, gone.

[Parfigliano]

3 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

I was in the car driving today and heard KOC's press conference during Barreiro's show. First, he channeled his inner Christian Ponder saying things were correctable on tape. But I was thoroughly disappointed with the softball questions thrown at him by reporters. No one asked why Wentz remained in the game until it was 99,99% over when he was in clear pain throughout the game.

Some woman idk who it was literally asking KOC "How much does it help that everybody's going to stick together during a difficult time like this?" And he spouted off for 5 minutes about how we have such a tight knit team. Ridiculous.

Happy crap talk