Chargers @ Vikings 10/23/25

[nicksaviking]

I've seen some great Vikings v Chargers games in the past, but both teams are struggling. And it sounds like the Vikings truly could go in three different directions at QB with McCarthy and Wentz both injured and this being a short week. If Brosmer actually does start, he's either got to be really, really good, or really, really bad. Like good enough that everyone says, McCarthy who? Or bad enough that the stans are OK with washing their hands of him after one game.

If he's anywhere in the middle, this franchise is going to be in QB purgatory and we all get to wallow in ambiguity, indecision and aimless direction. I really hope we don't later look back at these early weeks of the the 2025 season and say, Oh, that's when we turned into the Cleveland Browns. Not just because of the QB situation, but the aging roster and no young players playing well enough to dream on. Over-dramatic, I know, but I am worried this team is about to get stuck in a rut. And clearly they won't be able to draft their way out of it.

[Mike Sixel]

No young players because they are terrible in the draft room. Truly..

[Parfigliano]

11 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

No young players because they are terrible in the draft room. Truly..

Was saying 2 years ago fire Kwesi.

[nicksaviking]

Kwesi has nailed free agency though. I've been saying for two years they should keep him, IF they hire someone else who has full autonomy to run the draft.

[Mike Sixel]

11 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Kwesi has nailed free agency though. I've been saying for two years they should keep him, IF they hire someone else who has full autonomy to run the draft.

Not sure this year's FA class is good at all. 

[The Great Hambino]

2 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

Kwesi has nailed free agency though. I've been saying for two years they should keep him, IF they hire someone else who has full autonomy to run the draft.

Does any other team have that kind of arrangement?  Where drafting and free agency duties are completely segregated?  Honest question, I'd never thought of a setup like that before. 

I'd think that you'd want those two departments operating under a single unified vision, but maybe enough of free agency is settled before the draft that the draft guy would have a clear enough blueprint to work with.  Very interesting concept, even if I'm not totally sure if it would work in practice.  And if it has worked in practice, that could be even more interesting.

[nicksaviking]

14 minutes ago, The Great Hambino said:

Does any other team have that kind of arrangement?  Where drafting and free agency duties are completely segregated?  Honest question, I'd never thought of a setup like that before. 

 

I doubt it. I'm not against trying new things though and the Vikings shouldn't be either. 

[nicksaviking]

Also, Wentz is starting again. hooray. Another tough defense too; I expect he'll get his clock cleaned again.

Then a long week after this one. Will they turn back to JJ then? Or will they have him avoid the Lions too? They just beat the tar out of the previously resilient Baker Mayfield. Or will JJ conveniently be healthy when the Vikings face the Ravens and their squad of JV defensive players?

[Vanimal46]

This is the last game where the Vikings can hide behind the injury to McCarthy. If he’s not ready to go for Detroit, then the reporters need to start asking the uncomfortable questions every press conference 

[Mike Sixel]

Just another wasted draft pick so far. How's Turner doing? Tai Felton? 

One decent player out of their last two drafts. 

[The Great Hambino]

9 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

This is the last game where the Vikings can hide behind the injury to McCarthy. If he’s not ready to go for Detroit, then the reporters need to start asking the uncomfortable questions every press conference 

Agreed.  O'Connell's quote "If this was a Sunday game, maybe it would be a little bit of a different story" is the closest thing his word ... salad might be a bit too harsh, it's better than that.  Word succotash?  It's the closest thing his word succotash comes to tipping where JJ really is health-wise.  He's gonna start losing credibility if it's the same story next week.  You're gonna have to be able to face tough defenses in this league.  Can't keep burning development/evaluation time so JJ can double-dutch his way back in to the most perfect environment possible

[Mike Sixel]

11 minutes ago, The Great Hambino said:

Agreed.  O'Connell's quote "If this was a Sunday game, maybe it would be a little bit of a different story" is the closest thing his word ... salad might be a bit too harsh, it's better than that.  Word succotash?  It's the closest thing his word succotash comes to tipping where JJ really is health-wise.  He's gonna start losing credibility if it's the same story next week.  You're gonna have to be able to face tough defenses in this league.  Can't keep burning development/evaluation time so JJ can double-dutch his way back in to the most perfect environment possible

Everyone else is playing hurt or injured. 

[Vanimal46]

7 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Everyone else is playing hurt or injured. 

There’s no question the standards are different for veterans vs. McCarthy for KOC. Cashman started right away off IR, and it sounds like Aaron Jones is going to do the same on Thursday. 

It’s frustrating but I knew they weren’t going to start him on a short week. The excuses are over after this game. They’ll have 10 full days to get him ready to play against Detroit. 

[TheLeviathan]

2 hours ago, The Great Hambino said:

Agreed.  O'Connell's quote "If this was a Sunday game, maybe it would be a little bit of a different story" is the closest thing his word ... salad might be a bit too harsh, it's better than that.  Word succotash?  It's the closest thing his word succotash comes to tipping where JJ really is health-wise.  He's gonna start losing credibility if it's the same story next week.  You're gonna have to be able to face tough defenses in this league.  Can't keep burning development/evaluation time so JJ can double-dutch his way back in to the most perfect environment possible

If he doesn't start in Detroit....it is definitely time to riot.

And yeah....Kwesi's draft picks are a problem right now.  Turner has not made a jump this year.

[Mike Sixel]

Just now, TheLeviathan said:

If he doesn't start in Detroit....it is definitely time to riot.

And yeah....Kwesi's draft picks are a problem right now.  Turner has not made a jump this year.

Turner, JJ, Felton (and using early picks to get Turner and Hockenson)......those are three of the last 4 top picks for this team......Nada. Jackson has been fine....but you can't whiff on this many at bats. The Turner trade and pick looks worse every week.

[Vanimal46]

#TrustTheProcess

[TheLeviathan]

4 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Turner, JJ, Felton (and using early picks to get Turner and Hockenson)......those are three of the last 4 top picks for this team......Nada. Jackson has been fine....but you can't whiff on this many at bats. The Turner trade and pick looks worse every week.

Yeah, I'm not ready to write off JJ.  It's still in the unknown category for me.

Felton is a guy I definitely liked a whole lot less than other dudes on the board (looking at you Skattebo!) but there is some mystery there too.

It's just not nearly enough impact drafting.  There was a graphic during TB/Detroit about all the hits Detroit has had in rounds 2-4.  It's a crazy disparity.

[Vanimal46]

4 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

Yeah, I'm not ready to write off JJ.  It's still in the unknown category for me.

Felton is a guy I definitely liked a whole lot less than other dudes on the board (looking at you Skattebo!) but there is some mystery there too.

It's just not nearly enough impact drafting.  There was a graphic during TB/Detroit about all the hits Detroit has had in rounds 2-4.  It's a crazy disparity.

Drafting well in the mid rounds is the only way to sustain success in this league. Kwesi’s not going to last in this role if he can’t figure out that crucial aspect of his job. 

When I evaluate GMs I weight my grade heavily on drafting/development. So far Kwesi has a failing grade there… Relying so heavily on FA acquisitions is why we’re on this roller coaster of greatness one year followed by a disappointing 7-10 season. 

[gunnarthor]

10 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

I've seen some great Vikings v Chargers games in the past, but both teams are struggling. And it sounds like the Vikings truly could go in three different directions at QB with McCarthy and Wentz both injured and this being a short week. If Brosmer actually does start, he's either got to be really, really good, or really, really bad. Like good enough that everyone says, McCarthy who? Or bad enough that the stans are OK with washing their hands of him after one game.

If he's anywhere in the middle, this franchise is going to be in QB purgatory and we all get to wallow in ambiguity, indecision and aimless direction. I really hope we don't later look back at these early weeks of the the 2025 season and say, Oh, that's when we turned into the Cleveland Browns. Not just because of the QB situation, but the aging roster and no young players playing well enough to dream on. Over-dramatic, I know, but I am worried this team is about to get stuck in a rut. And clearly they won't be able to draft their way out of it.

Cripes, the roster is fine. KOC/KAM have gone 37-20 since they took over. We went 33-31 in Zimmer/Speilman's last four years. You'd think the team would have a bit more rope than this after going 2-2 with the back-up QB but instead we're being compared to the Cleveland Browns. Gads. 

[Parfigliano]

11 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

Cripes, the roster is fine. KOC/KAM have gone 37-20 since they took over. We went 33-31 in Zimmer/Speilman's last four years. You'd think the team would have a bit more rope than this after going 2-2 with the back-up QB but instead we're being compared to the Cleveland Browns. Gads. 

Be glad they aren't being compared to NYJ.

[TheLeviathan]

2 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

Cripes, the roster is fine. KOC/KAM have gone 37-20 since they took over. We went 33-31 in Zimmer/Speilman's last four years. You'd think the team would have a bit more rope than this after going 2-2 with the back-up QB but instead we're being compared to the Cleveland Browns. Gads. 

It's a weird situation.  There is no denying the team has been really, really good overall.  Even shockingly competent with serious QB issues like Cousins getting hurt.

The Browns is a bad comp, but the drafting has been really, really bad.

[nicksaviking]

2 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

Cripes, the roster is fine. KOC/KAM have gone 37-20 since they took over. We went 33-31 in Zimmer/Speilman's last four years. You'd think the team would have a bit more rope than this after going 2-2 with the back-up QB but instead we're being compared to the Cleveland Browns. Gads. 

Like I said, it was over dramatic. But this team STILL hasn’t figured out a long term QB solution. And we’re almost certainly not going to find out any time this year either. I also suspect if KOC truly thought it was McCarthy, he’d be back starting. 
 

[Cap'n Piranha]

On 10/21/2025 at 9:42 AM, nicksaviking said:

Kwesi has nailed free agency though. I've been saying for two years they should keep him, IF they hire someone else who has full autonomy to run the draft.

Has Kwesi though?  From what I've heard, it's Flores that identifies the defensive players and tells Kwesi who to get; at that point, it's more a Brzezinski thing I would think.  If that's inaccurate, definitely let me know, but if it accurate, then Kwesi really doesn't deserve credit for Greenard, AVG, or Cashman.

However, even if Kwesi is the guy driving the FA bus, it's not enough to offset true ineptitude in drafting.  If Kwesi was just ok at drafting, that can be made up in FA to some degree, but Kwesi is at a point where the only pick from Day 1 or Day 2 that looks like a competent NFL player is Addison, and he might need to be traded.  When the second best pick you've made in 4 drafts is a 6th round kicker...that's horrifically bad drafting.

It seems much more logically consistent to me to say Kwesi is not good at identifying talent either in FA or the draft, and has managed to get through thanks to having an on-field coach who is good at identifying talent.

[Cap'n Piranha]

22 hours ago, The Great Hambino said:

Does any other team have that kind of arrangement?  Where drafting and free agency duties are completely segregated?  Honest question, I'd never thought of a setup like that before. 

I'd think that you'd want those two departments operating under a single unified vision, but maybe enough of free agency is settled before the draft that the draft guy would have a clear enough blueprint to work with.  Very interesting concept, even if I'm not totally sure if it would work in practice.  And if it has worked in practice, that could be even more interesting.

I'm honestly not sure what the difference would be between scouting an NFL player vs a college player, other than NFL players are playing against other NFL players, so there's less need to project future development.  If that is truly where this is all breaking down, that Kwesi has just been really bad at determining how players will transition to the pros, then yes, he should surrender any role in drafting.  I assume however making that statement will lead the Wilfs ask Kwesi an Office Space question

[Vanimal46]

Darrisaw added to the injury list because of the knee and is now questionable. Sigh…

[gunnarthor]

3 hours ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

Has Kwesi though?  From what I've heard, it's Flores that identifies the defensive players and tells Kwesi who to get; at that point, it's more a Brzezinski thing I would think.  If that's inaccurate, definitely let me know, but if it accurate, then Kwesi really doesn't deserve credit for Greenard, AVG, or Cashman.

However, even if Kwesi is the guy driving the FA bus, it's not enough to offset true ineptitude in drafting.  If Kwesi was just ok at drafting, that can be made up in FA to some degree, but Kwesi is at a point where the only pick from Day 1 or Day 2 that looks like a competent NFL player is Addison, and he might need to be traded.  When the second best pick you've made in 4 drafts is a 6th round kicker...that's horrifically bad drafting.

It seems much more logically consistent to me to say Kwesi is not good at identifying talent either in FA or the draft, and has managed to get through thanks to having an on-field coach who is good at identifying talent.

Statements like this are kinda all over here and Daily Norseman and are troubling, to say it nicely. The Vikings, like every team, have dozens - over 50 - people involved in the draft. It's not one person. Kwesi is not "identifying talent".* He's the GM. He is not a scout. Fans seem to think this is a Madden video game. Kwesi is the guy in charge of the football side of operations and oversees everything from the draft to roster construction to payroll to relationships with agents to hiring staff (and a lot more). Which is generally why GMs should be evaluated not on one single thing - the draft - but rather actual results. Which for him is 37-20, most of the games started by the presumed back-up QB. That is in incredibly good result. For some reason, Kwesi's results are often ignored as are his strategies. 

Second, fans seem to overestimate the draft and how impactful it is. The average NFL career is something like 3.3 years. People complain about Ed Ingram, for example, but he was a good pick. He was taken 59th overall and amassed, at the time we traded him, the 45th most value of players in the 2022 draft. Fans seem to think that every player should be an immediate starter (he was) and a top 10 at his position. While the 24/25 draft classes are still developing, they don't look that bad. JJ is the key, obviously, but Turner has played a lot on a pretty good defense and seems to be a good scheme fit, TID, Redmond, and Levi-Rodriguez have turned themselves into solid rotational pieces on the DL, Reichard is a really good kicker. Before that, Addison, Nailor have both been good WR picks. And the team has generally been pretty good while this has been happening.

Third, fans who want to complain about the draft argue that it is a logical place to complain about because the draft can get a team cheap talent. But then those same people simply ignore that the Vikings have some good young talent and focus on age b/c the Hitman hasn't retired. But we have young guys at QB, RB, WR, LT, LG, IDL, Edge, and safety. Also, Kwesi, unlike Speilman, seems more willing to use draft picks to acquire players. This seems pretty good but others may favor hoarding picks instead. 

I'm pretty optimistic about this team in the long term. I think the coaching staff and FO are really good. Right now, a lot rides on KOC getting JJ into a stud QB. I think he will but JJ has to get and stay healthy. 

* Also, the scouting people ID talent for the draft but there are then, again, literally, dozens of people (coaches and trainers) involved in trying to get the talent into a playable form. We see every NFL team struggle with this. Was Detroit wrong to pick Okudah #3 overall because he wasn't talented? Does talent = NFL readiness? Or did coaching fail him? Or was he not a fit for their system? A combination? etc. Did every NFL team that passed on Jefferson and Addison miss? Or would they have been different players in different environments? 

[Mike Sixel]

I'm hard pressed to say they have good young starters at safety or WR or RB. Turner? He's been meh so far. That's a pretty bad record for this many drafts. So far, McCarthy looks in over his head, when he plays. 

[nicksaviking]

14 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

Statements like this are kinda all over here and Daily Norseman and are troubling, to say it nicely. The Vikings, like every team, have dozens - over 50 - people involved in the draft. It's not one person. Kwesi is not "identifying talent".* He's the GM. He is not a scout. Fans seem to think this is a Madden video game. Kwesi is the guy in charge of the football side of operations and oversees everything from the draft to roster construction to payroll to relationships with agents to hiring staff (and a lot more). Which is generally why GMs should be evaluated not on one single thing - the draft - but rather actual results. Which for him is 37-20, most of the games started by the presumed back-up QB. That is in incredibly good result. For some reason, Kwesi's results are often ignored as are his strategies. 

Second, fans seem to overestimate the draft and how impactful it is. The average NFL career is something like 3.3 years. People complain about Ed Ingram, for example, but he was a good pick. He was taken 59th overall and amassed, at the time we traded him, the 45th most value of players in the 2022 draft. Fans seem to think that every player should be an immediate starter (he was) and a top 10 at his position. While the 24/25 draft classes are still developing, they don't look that bad. JJ is the key, obviously, but Turner has played a lot on a pretty good defense and seems to be a good scheme fit, TID, Redmond, and Levi-Rodriguez have turned themselves into solid rotational pieces on the DL, Reichard is a really good kicker. Before that, Addison, Nailor have both been good WR picks. And the team has generally been pretty good while this has been happening.

Third, fans who want to complain about the draft argue that it is a logical place to complain about because the draft can get a team cheap talent. But then those same people simply ignore that the Vikings have some good young talent and focus on age b/c the Hitman hasn't retired. But we have young guys at QB, RB, WR, LT, LG, IDL, Edge, and safety. Also, Kwesi, unlike Speilman, seems more willing to use draft picks to acquire players. This seems pretty good but others may favor hoarding picks instead. 

I'm pretty optimistic about this team in the long term. I think the coaching staff and FO are really good. Right now, a lot rides on KOC getting JJ into a stud QB. I think he will but JJ has to get and stay healthy. 

* Also, the scouting people ID talent for the draft but there are then, again, literally, dozens of people (coaches and trainers) involved in trying to get the talent into a playable form. We see every NFL team struggle with this. Was Detroit wrong to pick Okudah #3 overall because he wasn't talented? Does talent = NFL readiness? Or did coaching fail him? Or was he not a fit for their system? A combination? etc. Did every NFL team that passed on Jefferson and Addison miss? Or would they have been different players in different environments? 

The Vikings have next to no good young talent. Outside of Addison, all the good 'young' players they have were drafted before KAM got here. And based on you're average NFL lifespan of 3.3 years, that means they are on borrowed time.

The draft is EXTREMELY important. Yes, most of the picks fail, which is why the AVERAGE career for these guys is low, but you have to hit on one or two a year and the Vikings have not been doing that. And no, guys like Ed Ingram (not a KAM pick BTW) do not count as 'hitting' on one, he was awful by every evaluation, and is still awful. You absolutely should be able to get one starter per draft in year one and have two or three starters per draft by year two. You need to build the core of your team through the draft, you can't just go out and fill it in free agency every year or eventually you'll be filling it with quantity, not quality. Like the Texans did with Ed Ingram.

Honestly, this is a weird argument. I'm sure even the Vikings and KAM would acknowledge that the draft is very important and that they desperately need to improve in this area. It's OK to admit his drafting has been poor and still like the guy. I do.

[gunnarthor]

13 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

I'm hard pressed to say they have good young starters at safety or WR or RB. Turner? He's been meh so far. That's a pretty bad record for this many drafts. So far, McCarthy looks in over his head, when he plays. 

I dunno. That Jefferson guy (26) and Addison (23) are both young and seem ok. But, again, the main issue is JJ. I think he'll be really good. You don't. Not really worth arguing about. 

[gunnarthor]

6 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

The Vikings have next to no good young talent. Outside of Addison, all the good 'young' players they have were drafted before KAM got here. And based on you're average NFL lifespan of 3.3 years, that means they are on borrowed time.

The draft is EXTREMELY important. Yes, most of the picks fail, which is why the AVERAGE career for these guys is low, but you have to hit on one or two a year and the Vikings have not been doing that. And no, guys like Ed Ingram (not a KAM pick BTW) do not count as 'hitting' on one, he was awful by every evaluation, and is still awful. You absolutely should be able to get one starter per draft in year one and have two or three starters per draft by year two. You need to build the core of your team through the draft, you can't just go out and fill it in free agency every year or eventually you'll be filling it with quantity, not quality. Like the Texans did with Ed Ingram.

Honestly, this is a weird argument. I'm sure even the Vikings and KAM would acknowledge that the draft is very important and that they desperately need to improve in this area. It's OK to admit his drafting has been poor and still like the guy. I do.

I mean, eye of the beholder on young good talent, I guess. Not really going to worry about it. But even by your logic the Vikings have been ok. 

2022 - Ingram (yes, https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/min/2022_draft.htm) and Nailor, depending on how you define starters in different packages, have been starters. 
2023 - Addison and Hockinson
2024 - JJ, Turner, Reichard (can kickers be starters?)
2025 - Jackson and Mason 

Anyway, the original point was that focusing on the draft to evaluate Kwesi is not particularly helpful and those that do also make the draft seem worse than it was. I also wish Blackmon had developed into a starting corner for us, he didn't.