Twins 3, Red Sox 9: Another Gut Punch Has Twins On Ropes

[USAFChief]

24 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

 

Irvin pitched fine in at least two outings I recall since picking him up.

 

Irvin has only appeared in 3 games as a Twin.

Which of "at least 2" were fine?

The one hitter he got out in his first appearance? OK

That leaves us with 4 hits and a run in his second appearance, or yesterday's disaster. 

He now has a loss, and a 16.88 ERA as a Twin.

It'd be great if you could at least argue from a factual basis once in a while instead of just inventing things to suit your position.

[JD-TWINS]

7 minutes ago, GNess said:

As the leader of the team the manager bears primary responsibility for the eventual outcomes. That seems to be the way sports work at a basic level - fair or not.

I get that.

Cannot agree that guys aren’t hitting due to a lack of proper coaching!!

There aren’t complex plays nor a bunch of Teamwork within the Team constraints of baseball. Generally, it’s mano a mano - pitcher v. hitter. It’s not basketball or football or soccer. There’s no rest during the game - no special complex defenses - offensively, there’s nothing the coach can do if his players can’t hit!

It’s fair to the players since it’s the exact same situation for all of them.

[D.C Twins]

1 hour ago, JD-TWINS said:

I get that.

Cannot agree that guys aren’t hitting due to a lack of proper coaching!!

There aren’t complex plays nor a bunch of Teamwork within the Team constraints of baseball. Generally, it’s mano a mano - pitcher v. hitter. It’s not basketball or football or soccer. There’s no rest during the game - no special complex defenses - offensively, there’s nothing the coach can do if his players can’t hit!

It’s fair to the players since it’s the exact same situation for all of them.

So when exactly is it OK to judge MLB coaching in your world?

[D.C Twins]

3 hours ago, DJL44 said:

The manager's impact is "hope your reliever gets lucky". You can't make chicken salad out of this bullpen. Honestly, I'm surprised that Zebby pitched as well has he did.

So... we don't need a manager?

[Dave Borton]

5 hours ago, bean5302 said:

The Tigers benched Javy Baez, a veteran (even high priced!). Something Baldelli and Falvey would never allow...

"

 

Quote

 

Detroit Tigers shortstop Javier Baez will undergo season-ending surgery on his right hip after struggling through another poor campaign.

The Tigers are still determining when and where the surgery will take place.

 

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/41006792/tigers-ss-javier-baez-hip-undergo-season-ending-surgery

 

[JD-TWINS]

25 minutes ago, D.C Twins said:

So when exactly is it OK to judge MLB coaching in your world?

You think something as fickle as coaching helps a guy hit a 97mph fastball or a 12-6 curveball???

You/anyone can complain or “judge” all you like, it’s a free society. Thinking you can coach a guy to become a legitimate MLB hitter is naive. Sure, guys can be helped by pointing out good habits - bad habits - tweaking stances - weight shift approach - etc……Helping with what’s important in scouting reports - video. Thinking the Twins are lacking there or that the Manager helps guys become great hitters is nuts. Talented professional athletes are the guys that determine whether they get hits in their AB’s - their pitch recognition - their discipline - their mindset - etc.

I like to think reality is the right world.

[D.C Twins]

54 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

You think something as fickle as coaching helps a guy hit a 97mph fastball or a 12-6 curveball???

You/anyone can complain or “judge” all you like, it’s a free society. Thinking you can coach a guy to become a legitimate MLB hitter is naive. Sure, guys can be helped by pointing out good habits - bad habits - tweaking stances - weight shift approach - etc……Helping with what’s important in scouting reports - video. Thinking the Twins are lacking there or that the Manager helps guys become great hitters is nuts. Talented professional athletes are the guys that determine whether they get hits in their AB’s - their pitch recognition - their discipline - their mindset - etc.

I like to think reality is the right world.

So when do you think it is OK to fire a manager? 

[JD-TWINS]

7 hours ago, Dave Borton said:

Mize and Olson (pitchers)both just started again after 60 day and prolonged injuries. White and Faedo (Ps) done for the year. Baez is out for remainder of season. Tigers have gone with BP TWO beginners from BP on several games. Colt Keith just returned to lineup, albeit as DH.

The young Mudhens have been busy, not laying eggs except on scoreboard.

 

My daughter went to Toledo - love the Mudhens - former Twin’s affiliate back in the day.

Ibanez is/was terrible. He hit a game winning HR against Twins and again a few weeks later against another decent Team in the 9th. Outside of these two games the organization couldn’t figure out how to hide him.

Colt Keith is a rookie call-up - supposed to be good prospect but he isn’t Carlos Correa. Faedo isn’t as good as Ronny Henriquez (1.34 WHIP & 2-1 strikeout to walk ratio). Mize isn’t Joe Ryan…….etc etc 

Tigers have some guys hurt - Twins and every other roster does as well - Tigers guys are just guys ………Headrick has been hurt too, nobody cares…..nobody points that out in press, nor should they

 

[DJL44]

4 hours ago, D.C Twins said:

So... we don't need a manager?

The manager does not have nearly as much impact on wins and losses as some people think. Based on the complaints here about Rocco I would conclude that those posters believe this is a 110 win team that Rocco mismanaged into being an 81+ win team. I don't think this is a 110 win team. I don't even think this is a 90 win team. Based on talent they're an 80-85 win team. Maybe a great manager could coax another 5 wins out of the team but a truly bad manager could have cost them at least 5 more losses.

[knothole61]

3 hours ago, JD-TWINS said:

You think something as fickle as coaching helps a guy hit a 97mph fastball or a 12-6 curveball???

You/anyone can complain or “judge” all you like, it’s a free society. Thinking you can coach a guy to become a legitimate MLB hitter is naive. Sure, guys can be helped by pointing out good habits - bad habits - tweaking stances - weight shift approach - etc……Helping with what’s important in scouting reports - video. Thinking the Twins are lacking there or that the Manager helps guys become great hitters is nuts. Talented professional athletes are the guys that determine whether they get hits in their AB’s - their pitch recognition - their discipline - their mindset - etc.

I like to think reality is the right world.

JD, I can agree to some extent that the position of hitting coach is overrated. Most MLB players have been hitting a pitched baseball very well since they were 7 years old or so. A pitching coach, especially at the MLB level, can tweak things at times, but any thought that they truly revamp the approach of skilled hitters seems shortsighted.

A manager, however can, and should, improve the hitting of his players but putting them in the most favorable position to succeed. When a manager selects a line up that is cohesive and complimentary; when he has an intimate knowledge of which players perform best (or worst) against which pitchers; when he knows when to bench a struggling player and even get in their face a bit (this is frowned on by the modern world, but Sparky Anderson, Earl Weaver, and many other great managers of the past were experts in that lost art); when he emphasizes the fundamentals including bunting for hits--when an MLB manager does this and more he becomes the most important factor in improving the hitting and performance in general of his players. At least that's how it seems to me.   

[D.C Twins]

16 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

The manager does not have nearly as much impact on wins and losses as some people think. Based on the complaints here about Rocco I would conclude that those posters believe this is a 110 win team that Rocco mismanaged into being an 81+ win team. I don't think this is a 110 win team. I don't even think this is a 90 win team. Based on talent they're an 80-85 win team. Maybe a great manager could coax another 5 wins out of the team but a truly bad manager could have cost them at least 5 more losses.

So that is 5-10 wins we are leaving on the table which is generally a pretty big deal in the final standings.... 

Again....either managing matters and Rocco needs to go...

Or managing doesn't matter and there is no harm in letting Rocco go and trying someone else

[DJL44]

3 minutes ago, D.C Twins said:

So that is 5-10 wins we are leaving on the table which is generally a pretty big deal in the final standings.... 

5 wins is the maximum. That is a pretty big deal and I'm fine with trying someone else but let's not get delusional and pretend that Rocco mismanaged the clear World Series favorite into fighting for a wild card berth.

Also, ask yourself this question. Could this front office correctly identify and hire a truly great manager? The Twins have never really had one in the history of the franchise. TK was good, but he's not Bochy.

[NYCTK]

15 hours ago, Dave Borton said:

"

 

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/41006792/tigers-ss-javier-baez-hip-undergo-season-ending-surgery

 

I'll then say, the Mets benched veteran JD Martinez. Man had a 136 OPS+ last year, and a decent first part of the season (853 OPS on July 1st) but been struggling ever since then (599 OPS). He's lost his job and might not even make the playoff roster if the Mets advance to the NLDS. 

[NYCTK]

13 hours ago, JD-TWINS said:

Colt Keith is a rookie call-up - supposed to be good prospect but he isn’t Carlos Correa.

Eeeeh, Colt Keith isn't just a rookie call-up. The Tigers have high hopes for him, signing him to a 6 year 28 mil contract before he even made his debut. I would suggest that they DO expect him to be as good (or better) than Carlos Correa in the next couple years.