Is Glen Perkins the Twins greatest trade chip?

[TheLeviathan]

Agreed. It bothers me that the Twins seem approach free agency with a fear of getting it wrong. A cautious approach to free agency is to be lauded, but that doesn't mean there aren't smart, lower risks buys in the mid to high priced markets. Successful teams are built throught their farm system and the Twins seem to be in a good place right now in that regard, but facts are that no farm system in baseball is going to provide all of the solutions a team needs. Hopefully in the upcoming years the Twins will show their awareness of this and use their money to buy a legitimate starting pitcher, power bat at 1B, and/or legitimate short stop.

 

Well said. You will be amazed at how many here will take issue with this common sense, wise post of yours.

[drjim]

Well said. You will be amazed at how many here will take issue with this common sense, wise post of yours.

 

My main issue is he is pushing for smart, low risk signings but somehow thinks that will produce a power hitting 1b, a legit ss and a front of the rotation starter. Seems more fantasy than wise to me. Especially since last offseason had zero free agents that fit into the first two categories and two total that could be considered front line starters.

[TheLeviathan]

My main issue is he is pushing for smart, low risk signings but somehow thinks that will produce a power hitting 1b, a legit ss and a front of the rotation starter. Seems more fantasy than wise to me. Especially since last offseason had zero free agents that fit into the first two categories and two total that could be considered front line starters.

 

Sure, but this:

 

Successful teams are built throught their farm system and the Twins seem to be in a good place right now in that regard, but facts are that no farm system in baseball is going to provide all of the solutions a team needs.

 

Is spot on. And it's the piece that you and others have repeatedly refused to accept. This team can't just augment itself via the farm and trading guys like Perk.

 

At some point they need to hang on to talented, heart-and-soul types like Perkins and look to supplement with the piles of cash they have available. The more it looks like Sano and Buxton are fast-tracking, the more it makes the mistakes of the last offseason look apparent.

[kab21]

Nobody is saying that you force a deal for Perkins but this team needs good starting pitching and a 30 yr old closer is a luxury for this team. I would love to keep Perkins but this is one of the best ways to add good starting pitching to the team. The Twins could certainly do better in FA but it's difficult to add good pitchers in FA unless you are shopping in the Greinke/Sanchez neighborhood. Many of the FA pitchers that so many argued for this past offseason have been borderline (or completely) awful this year.

[ashbury]

Essentially Span said he signed with the Twins because he wanted to play here (he didn't elucidate reasons why) and he probably took less than he was worth to do so. In return the Twins traded him away in large part because of his contract. Essentially that is what we're talking about doing with Perkins as well. How many players in the future will be willing to sign team friendly deals if they know the Twins will just trade them? It's a quandary and I certainly don't know the answers.

 

The contract probably added to Span's value in trade. However, he was on the trading block because he stood a very good chance of not being one of the three best outfielders on the team in 2015. I don't think you can make a similar forecast for Perkins's role in the bullpen in 2015.

[drjim]

Sure, but this:

 

 

 

Is spot on. And it's the piece that you and others have repeatedly refused to accept. This team can't just augment itself via the farm and trading guys like Perk.

 

At some point they need to hang on to talented, heart-and-soul types like Perkins and look to supplement with the piles of cash they have available. The more it looks like Sano and Buxton are fast-tracking, the more it makes the mistakes of the last offseason look apparent.

 

Despite what you just said I don't think there is a person on this board who dispute that statement. The questions are more about timing and risk and a sober analysis of who is actually available on the free agent market.

 

I am completely on board with smart, low risk signings that lead to power hitters, top of the rotation starters, and good SSs. Those can be a little tricky to execute however.

[drjim]

Nobody is saying that you force a deal for Perkins but this team needs good starting pitching and a 30 yr old closer is a luxury for this team. I would love to keep Perkins but this is one of the best ways to add good starting pitching to the team. The Twins could certainly do better in FA but it's difficult to add good pitchers in FA unless you are shopping in the Greinke/Sanchez neighborhood. Many of the FA pitchers that so many argued for this past offseason have been borderline (or completely) awful this year.

 

I still think it would take a big overpay and teams are probably too savvy to do that for a closer. But it only takes one and Perkins might be the best potentially available reliever.

[kab21]

The contract probably added to Span's value in trade. However, he was on the trading block because he stood a very good chance of not being one of the three best outfielders on the team in 2015. I don't think you can make a similar forecast for Perkins's role in the bullpen in 2015.

 

Span was on the trading block because he was the type of asset that could bring in a very good starting pitching prospect. People can say that the Twins should have Morneau, Doumit and other guys on the trading block but those guys bring in marginal prospects. If you want to add good prospects then you have to give up good players or draft them.

[TheLeviathan]

Nobody is saying that you force a deal for Perkins but this team needs good starting pitching and a 30 yr old closer is a luxury for this team. I would love to keep Perkins but this is one of the best ways to add good starting pitching to the team. The Twins could certainly do better in FA but it's difficult to add good pitchers in FA unless you are shopping in the Greinke/Sanchez neighborhood. Many of the FA pitchers that so many argued for this past offseason have been borderline (or completely) awful this year.

 

Even the Broxton deal last year doesn't have that kind of value. I get what you're saying, I just highly doubt such an offer will exist.

[TheLeviathan]

Despite what you just said I don't think there is a person on this board who dispute that statement. The questions are more about timing and risk and a sober analysis of who is actually available on the free agent market.

 

And my counter argument to that is if you are waiting for a free agent player/contract combination that gives you warm fuzzies inside that is a major impact player, you're looking at a much, much tricker thing to execute. FA is ugly often times, but also necessary. We, as a fan base, seem to have been programmed to be very afraid of the ugliness and therefore ignore the necessity.

[howieramone1406390264]

And my counter argument to that is if you are waiting for a free agent player/contract combination that gives you warm fuzzies inside that is a major impact player, you're looking at a much, much tricker thing to execute. FA is ugly often times, but also necessary. We, as a fan base, seem to have been programmed to be very afraid of the ugliness and therefore ignore the necessity.

Speak for yourself.

[chopper0080]

My main issue is he is pushing for smart, low risk signings but somehow thinks that will produce a power hitting 1b, a legit ss and a front of the rotation starter. Seems more fantasy than wise to me. Especially since last offseason had zero free agents that fit into the first two categories and two total that could be considered front line starters.

 

Anibal Sanchez

Mike Napoli

and I can't think of a short stop.

 

Those were two easy signings and were fairly low risk. Sanchez is relatively young and has had a history of consistent pithcing. Napoli was a buy low candidate coming off an injury, but he offered big time power and the ability to play C, 1B, and DH. But of course, we had Doumit who is the same guy but older and with less power.

 

Smart, low risk FA signings that improve power and starting pitching. Not too difficult if you can trust your evaluations and pull the trigger.

[chopper0080]

Nobody is saying that you force a deal for Perkins but this team needs good starting pitching and a 30 yr old closer is a luxury for this team. I would love to keep Perkins but this is one of the best ways to add good starting pitching to the team. The Twins could certainly do better in FA but it's difficult to add good pitchers in FA unless you are shopping in the Greinke/Sanchez neighborhood. Many of the FA pitchers that so many argued for this past offseason have been borderline (or completely) awful this year.

 

Why can't we shop in that range? Greinke comes with some inherent risks, but Sanchez was a pretty easy pitcher to scout and did cost the entire farm when you consider you signed a very good #2 SP. We don't need to sign 5 of these guys, but we are going to need to sign at least in the next two years if we are going to be serious about competing.

[jokin]

Anibal Sanchez

Mike Napoli

and I can't think of a short stop.

 

Those were two easy signings and were fairly low risk. Sanchez is relatively young and has had a history of consistent pithcing. Napoli was a buy low candidate coming off an injury, but he offered big time power and the ability to play C, 1B, and DH. But of course, we had Doumit who is the same guy but older and with less power.

 

Smart, low risk FA signings that improve power and starting pitching. Not too difficult if you can trust your evaluations and pull the trigger.

 

Stephen Drew, who signed a one-year deal- definitely would have passed there. Scutaro would have been a nice upgrade, but unsignable by the Twins at a 3 year contract he got with the Giants and age 37.

[kab21]

Even the Broxton deal last year doesn't have that kind of value. I get what you're saying, I just highly doubt such an offer will exist.

 

Broxton went from elite closer to garbage pretty quickly. It shouldn't be a surprise that the Royals didn't get much for him based on half of a good season.

[kab21]

Why can't we shop in that range? Greinke comes with some inherent risks, but Sanchez was a pretty easy pitcher to scout and did cost the entire farm when you consider you signed a very good #2 SP. We don't need to sign 5 of these guys, but we are going to need to sign at least in the next two years if we are going to be serious about competing.

 

You don't shop in that range when you are a 100 loss team. I think they should shop in that range when they start putting the pieces into place to contend. Why? Typically the last 1-2 years of a big FA contract like that are when the FA pitcher has declined considerably. Rather inconveniently those years would be lining up just as this prospect core was getting established. I think it's much better to wait and have that level of pitcher when the young core is getting established.

[drjim]

And my counter argument to that is if you are waiting for a free agent player/contract combination that gives you warm fuzzies inside that is a major impact player, you're looking at a much, much tricker thing to execute. FA is ugly often times, but also necessary. We, as a fan base, seem to have been programmed to be very afraid of the ugliness and therefore ignore the necessity.

 

I agree with these statements except for the last sentence. It is difficult to execute a good free agent contract that was my point.

[drjim]

Anibal Sanchez

Mike Napoli

and I can't think of a short stop.

 

Those were two easy signings and were fairly low risk. Sanchez is relatively young and has had a history of consistent pithcing. Napoli was a buy low candidate coming off an injury, but he offered big time power and the ability to play C, 1B, and DH. But of course, we had Doumit who is the same guy but older and with less power.

 

Smart, low risk FA signings that improve power and starting pitching. Not too difficult if you can trust your evaluations and pull the trigger.

 

Sanchez is a five year deal. Pitching great now but we'll see if he is doing the same in 2-3 years when the Twins window starts to open

[Guest USAFChief]

You don't shop in that range when you are a 100 loss team. I think they should shop in that range when they start putting the pieces into place to contend.

 

With respect--and we've had this argument--I think the better idea is to shop in that range when you have the money and the need.

 

Shopping in that range almost has to be part of "putting the pieces into place." If you wait till you have everything in place until you put everything in place, you end up the KC Royals, always looking at all the talent in A ball as a way to excuse the losses by the big league club.

[howieramone1406390264]

With respect--and we've had this argument--I think the better idea is to shop in that range when you have the money and the need.

 

Shopping in that range almost has to be part of "putting the pieces into place." If you wait till you have everything in place until you put everything in place, you end up the KC Royals, always looking at all the talent in A ball as a way to excuse the losses by the big league club.

Respectfully, we are not the Royals, or the Pirates if you will. They changed their 5 year plan every 3 years or so. We have a stable organization which has shown us before they know how to rebuild.

[Twins Twerp]

I would encourage all of you to check out Buster Olney's Baseball Tonight podcast from Thursday. He had Terry Ryan on and it was great. He really doesn't sugar code ****. He is straight forward and very respected in the game. Look at the two biggest spenders in the past two years: LA dodgers and LA Angels. How is that working out? Free agency is a last resort. Plus you lose draft picks. I for one would rather have Eades for six cheap years than Sanchez for 2 good followed by 3 bad at 15-20 mil.

[silverslugger]

With respect--and we've had this argument--I think the better idea is to shop in that range when you have the money and the need.

 

Shopping in that range almost has to be part of "putting the pieces into place." If you wait till you have everything in place until you put everything in place, you end up the KC Royals, always looking at all the talent in A ball as a way to excuse the losses by the big league club.

 

Didn't Barreiro accuse the Twins of as much when they broadcast the Cedar Rapids Kernels/Byron Buxton show game on FSN last Monday? I really enjoyed the broadcast, was at the game, and think the Twins need to do more of this. Let's see a Fort Myers game or New Britain game on FSN soon! However, let's not do it at the risk of becoming the Royals. Or, are we already there. Say it ain't so Joe!

[Mike Sixel]

Look at the pirates and royals, they prove, using your logic, that using the draft does not work.....I'd guess that it is a combination of the two approaches that work best, which is what most of us have been saying. Like adding Jack Morris, for example.....or CC Sabathia. I mean, the Yankees have won an awful lot, and they did it by using both channels......that's what I'm asking for, not to ignore big time free agents completely. Imagine signing a legit DH earlier this century, rather than using the DHs they used....like when McPhail was GM.....

[chopper0080]

You don't shop in that range when you are a 100 loss team. I think they should shop in that range when they start putting the pieces into place to contend. Why? Typically the last 1-2 years of a big FA contract like that are when the FA pitcher has declined considerably. Rather inconveniently those years would be lining up just as this prospect core was getting established. I think it's much better to wait and have that level of pitcher when the young core is getting established.

 

Who knows if that level of pitcher is going to available if or when your "core" is ready.

 

Facts are that if you can identify a player like Sanchez who is relatively young and has been consistent throughout his career, you shouldn't be afraid to make a move. Who else are you going to spend your money on? How else are you going to attract other free agents.

 

This is the biggest pile of crap from the Twins. They are terrified of the big contract and so have consistently ignored that area as a way to get their teams the pieces they need. I love the fact that we have Sano, Hicks, Arcia, Buxton, and Rosario in the pipeline, but even if they all make it to the show, it doesn't matter without pitching. Say what you want about the potential of May, Gibson, Meyer, Berrios and Winmmers, history says they won't all pan out. If that is the case, who do we have in two years?

 

Of course if your organization's interest in quality, sub-30 players is dependent on their win/loss record, your team has much bigger problems.

[chopper0080]

Sanchez is a five year deal. Pitching great now but we'll see if he is doing the same in 2-3 years when the Twins window starts to open

 

He was 29 when he signed the contract. Even if he is a #3 SP when he is 33 which would be in his 3rd year, he still would be better than anything we have right now. You can't manage your team in fear of the unknown. Prospects are cheap and contracts eventually expire. IF you are smart with your moves, you won't get bit too often.

[TheLeviathan]

Broxton went from elite closer to garbage pretty quickly. It shouldn't be a surprise that the Royals didn't get much for him based on half of a good season.

 

My point was that the deals you are suggesting don't happen. Do you have an example?

[TheLeviathan]

Respectfully, we are not the Royals, or the Pirates if you will. They changed their 5 year plan every 3 years or so. We have a stable organization which has shown us before they know how to rebuild.

 

Respectfully....we just went through a major change in plans in the last 3-5 years, so I'm not sure what your point is.

[chopper0080]

I would encourage all of you to check out Buster Olney's Baseball Tonight podcast from Thursday. He had Terry Ryan on and it was great. He really doesn't sugar code ****. He is straight forward and very respected in the game. Look at the two biggest spenders in the past two years: LA dodgers and LA Angels. How is that working out? Free agency is a last resort. Plus you lose draft picks. I for one would rather have Eades for six cheap years than Sanchez for 2 good followed by 3 bad at 15-20 mil.

 

First, no one is advocating that Twins become one of the biggest spenders in baseball. I am stating that they do however need to start approaching free agency with finding the best players with the most acceptable risk REGARDLESS of the price tag. Don't be afraid of Anibal Sanchez's 4th year of a 5 year deal when he can be the best pitcher on your team for the first 3 years.

 

Secondly, why would you rather have a huge question mark prospect in Eades rather than a proven, quality #2 SP? Because of cost? I would rather pay someone who I know will give me quality MLB production rather than a player who I hope just makes it to the Show. Is that going to be the case the majority of the time? No, pitchers like Sanchez don't always hit the market and there will always be a certain cap on spending. But in the Twins case, signing Sanchez would have done wonders for this pitching staff and bringing it into respectability.

[TheLeviathan]

I would encourage all of you to check out Buster Olney's Baseball Tonight podcast from Thursday. He had Terry Ryan on and it was great. He really doesn't sugar code ****. He is straight forward and very respected in the game. Look at the two biggest spenders in the past two years: LA dodgers and LA Angels. How is that working out? Free agency is a last resort. Plus you lose draft picks. I for one would rather have Eades for six cheap years than Sanchez for 2 good followed by 3 bad at 15-20 mil.

 

This is the giant steaming fallacy we Twins fans have been fed for decades. It is not either/or!!!!! You can do both!

 

Teams like St. Louis, Atlanta, Washington, Texas, Cincy prove this. With all due respect this is the canned argument that people hide behind and it's total nonsense.

 

BOTH.....not either/or.

[howieramone1406390264]

Respectfully....we just went through a major change in plans in the last 3-5 years, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Tell me about it, I must have missed it.