MLB Talks ... latest news

[TheLeviathan]

37 minutes ago, yeahyabetcha said:

It says a lot when getting the opinion of an independent, impartial third party is not considered a serious offer

The independent, impartial third party was a public relations ploy you just lapped up.

Those people exist to help sides who are actibely negotiating work through impasses.  I don't care what side you're on, there is no sane definition of "actively negotiating" to describe the MLB situation.

[Brock Beauchamp]

16 hours ago, yeahyabetcha said:

Mediation was offered to players and rejected.  Might that not have helped speed up the process 

My wife is an attorney and I hear about her mediations all the time. The owners used it was a PR ploy; mediation is generally used only after serious negotiations have happened and the two sides are at an impasse and/or one side is being irrational. Having a third party come in to resolve one or two points or tell one side their demands are unreasonable can be useful but it's not where you start the process.

Calling for mediation after spending two months ghosting the other side and not even having one serious, lengthy meeting to resolve differences isn't trying to resolve the situation, it's an attempt to win public relations.

Mediators aren't some magic bullet, they can't force anyone to do anything, and they're generally used only after other avenues have been exhausted. From the moment the lockout started, MLB ownership has slowed down the process as much as possible. Offering a mediator was just another way to slow down the process and put the sport in risk of being delayed, which gives the owners more leverage.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Here are hard numbers why players are angry at ownership. Owning a baseball team is a wildly profitable venture and we know that for certain, as the Atlanta Braves have to open their books now.

 

[Mike Sixel]

The Atlanta team made over 100 million in profit from baseball alone, not counting the real estate profits that exist because they got additional subsidies to do that too. And that's the profit after taking out non cash expenses..... revenue has grown much faster than pay. The owners proposals don't even keep up with regular inflation, let alone the inflation in revenue. I'm not anti owners, I'm pro worker. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 minute ago, Mike Sixel said:

The Atlanta team made over 100 million in profit from baseball alone, not counting the real estate profits that exist because they got additional subsidies to do that too. And that's the profit after taking out non cash expenses..... revenue has grown much faster than pay. The owners proposals don't even keep up with regular inflation, let alone the inflation in revenue. I'm not anti owners, I'm pro worker. 

And let's not forget they operated much of the season with Covid-related caps on attendance. This was a "down" year for baseball due to the pandemic.

[Vanimal46]

Just now, Mike Sixel said:

There Atlanta team made over 100 million in profit from baseball alone, not counting the real estate profits that exist because they got additional subsidies to do that too. And that's the profit after taking out non cash expenses..... revenue has grown much faster than pay. The owners proposals don't even keep up with regular inflation, let alone the inflation in revenue. I'm not anti owners, I'm pro worker. 

And they’ll capture even more revenue when legal betting is conducted at their stadiums through their partnerships with Fanduel, Bally, and whoever else. 

[TwinsDr2021]

8 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Here are hard numbers why players are angry at ownership. Owning a baseball team is a wildly profitable venture and we know that for certain, as the Atlanta Braves have to open their books now.

I have a question, maybe I am missing something. The braves made 104 million profit and their payroll was around 145 million.

Meaning if the braves didn't pay the players one cent, they would have made 249 in profit, 145 of 249 is around 58%.

Is this number too low of percentage for the players? Ins this case this actually makes the owners look better.

Or like I said am I missing the point of this? I truly don't have a side in this labor battle, just trying to look at it from an outside perspective.

As for Mike's comment on real estate, I don't think the players have any right to that money, I don't think the owners ask for anything from players endorsements (could be wrong) but this isn't important.

 

[TwinsDr2021]

17 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

And they’ll capture even more revenue when legal betting is conducted at their stadiums through their partnerships with Fanduel, Bally, and whoever else. 

That should be something the players are negotiating for, if they aren't that is on them.

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 minute ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

I have a question, maybe I am missing something. The braves made 104 million profit and their payroll was around 145 million.

Meaning if the braves didn't pay the players one cent, they would have made 249 in profit, 145 of 249 is around 58%.

Is this number too low of percentage for the players? Ins this case this actually makes the owners look better.

Or like I said am I missing the point of this? I truly don't have a side in this labor battle, just trying to look at it from an outside perspective.

As for Mike's comment on real estate, I don't think the players have any right to that money, I don't think the owners ask for anything from players endorsements (could be wrong) but this isn't important.

You're using profit, not revenue. Negotiations are based on player percentage of revenue, not percentage of profit (which varies quite a bit and can be easily manipulated by outsourcing large sums of money to shell corporations or handing exorbitant salaries to specific people).

[TwinsDr2021]

20 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

And let's not forget they operated much of the season with Covid-related caps on attendance. This was a "down" year for baseball due to the pandemic.

By looking at their attendance, by April 23rd they had close to 20K fans, and by May 7th they were close to 40.

The also had 3 series playoff series and where in a pennant race, shouldn't that more than cover the begging of the season lack of attendance?

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

2 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

By looking at their attendance, by April 23rd they had close to 20K fans, and by May 7th they were close to 40.

The also had 3 series playoff series and where in a pennant race, shouldn't that more than cover the begging of the season lack of attendance?

 

Oh, the Braves definitely had a better season than most due to their championship, I was merely pointing out that they also had issues that cut into their profits early in the season. They weren’t maxed out like a typical championship team would be in a normal year. 

[TwinsDr2021]

7 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

You're using profit, not revenue. Negotiations are based on player percentage of revenue, not percentage of profit (which varies quite a bit and can be easily manipulated by outsourcing large sums of money to shell corporations or handing exorbitant salaries to specific people).

OK, that makes sense, but if the players get paid 58% of the profit and the owners get 42%, doesn't that seem like a a win for the players, at least ATL players? If the players got 50 of the Revenue that would mean that 58% would go way up, and some teams that have less Revenue could actually lose money? Anyway, have a good day.

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 minute ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

OK, that makes sense, but if the players get paid 58% of the profit and the owners get 42%, doesn't that seem like a a win for the players, at least ATL players? If the players got 50 of the Revenue that would mean that 58% would go way up, and some teams that have less Revenue could actually lose money? Anyway, have a good day.

Labor is an operating expense, though, not profit. Labor goes into the same bucket as stadium expense and paying the players is no different than paying the gate workers, the numbers are just much larger. 

[Employee No. 4210]

22 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Labor is an operating expense, though, not profit. Labor goes into the same bucket as stadium expense and paying the players is no different than paying the gate workers, the numbers are just much larger. 

And the deeper into the season this goes, its those gate workers - and other gameday, stadium employees - that are going to be hurting. The ones who won't start making tens of thousands a game when the season eventually starts. I'm one of them, and after getting paid for one month in 2020, and basically half a season in 2021, losing more games in 2022 just sucks. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

24 minutes ago, Employee No. 4210 said:

And the deeper into the season this goes, its those gate workers - and other gameday, stadium employees - that are going to be hurting. The ones who won't start making tens of thousands a game when the season eventually starts. I'm one of them, and after getting paid for one month in 2020, and basically half a season in 2021, losing more games in 2022 just sucks. 

That really sucks and I'm sorry you're suffering from this needless situation.

[TheLeviathan]

3 hours ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

I have a question, maybe I am missing something. The braves made 104 million profit and their payroll was around 145 million.

Meaning if the braves didn't pay the players one cent, they would have made 249 in profit, 145 of 249 is around 58%.

Is this number too low of percentage for the players? Ins this case this actually makes the owners look better.

Or like I said am I missing the point of this? I truly don't have a side in this labor battle, just trying to look at it from an outside perspective.

As for Mike's comment on real estate, I don't think the players have any right to that money, I don't think the owners ask for anything from players endorsements (could be wrong) but this isn't important.

 

Frankly, owners shouldn't get those real estate perks either.  They soak tax payers for massive benefits that only further enrich them.

Their entire scheme is crying poor while they bloat their bank accounts.

And I'm generally anti-union, I find them corrupt and crappy in their own right.  (Broadly speaking)  But I'm not going to pity a bunch of lying billionaires and play interference for their BS either.

[Vanimal46]

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

Yep, tell me again how serious MLB is about these negotiations.

 

[wsnydes]

6 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Yep, tell me again how serious MLB is about these negotiations.

 

In fairness, he probably doesn't need to be there unless a deal is imminent.  I assume that he's got lead negotiators.

[wsnydes]

 

Well, ain't this fun?!?

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

Ugh. I wish the players would concede a little on the CBT threshold and instead pursue a hard salary floor in return. Teams like the Guardians, Pirates, and Rays are worse for the sport and its players than a soft salary cap.

[Vanimal46]

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

25 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

 

To put that in perspective, from what I saw of the last offer, that means the league moved around 0.4% with that $1m offer. Inflation, in its best years, is triple that number. This year, inflation is over ten times that.

But yes, someone please tell me again how the players are the problem here.

[wsnydes]

I found this to be an interesting concession.  Though, 75% is probably unrealistically high to begin with.  Seems like the PA is admitting as such here.

 

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

11 hours ago, wsnydes said:

I found this to be an interesting concession.  Though, 75% is probably unrealistically high to begin with.  Seems like the PA is admitting as such here.

Frankly, arbitration SHOULD start immediately. The sport is much better off if Luis Arraez makes $2m in his second year and Mike Trout makes $32m a year instead of $40m a year.

I get why the MLBPA dropped their demand for universal arbitration after two years but it's still disappointing.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Ken Rosenthal roasts Manfred in this piece and it's beautiful. He's a terrible commissioner and I hope this mess is his ultimate downfall.

https://theathletic.com/3152105/2022/02/27/rosenthal-rob-manfred-on-course-to-fulfill-his-own-doomsday-prophesy-for-baseball/?redirected=1

[wsnydes]

36 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Frankly, arbitration SHOULD start immediately. The sport is much better off if Luis Arraez makes $2m in his second year and Mike Trout makes $32m a year instead of $40m a year.

I get why the MLBPA dropped their demand for universal arbitration after two years but it's still disappointing.

Right, my point was that 75% was a pretty large increase.  I can see working towards universal arb after 2 years, but don't think it's even remotely realistic at this point.

[wsnydes]

14 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Ken Rosenthal roasts Manfred in this piece and it's beautiful. He's a terrible commissioner and I hope this mess is his ultimate downfall.

https://theathletic.com/3152105/2022/02/27/rosenthal-rob-manfred-on-course-to-fulfill-his-own-doomsday-prophesy-for-baseball/?redirected=1

As long as he doesn't take the game with it.  

That is a good article.  Pretty scathing, but laid out well.

[Brock Beauchamp]

4 minutes ago, wsnydes said:

As long as he doesn't take the game with it.  

That is a good article.  Pretty scathing, but laid out well.

I love the bits about how Manfred's most unifying feature is player and fan hatred of him. People blast Selig but outside of the contraction nonsense, I don't think he was a terrible commissioner. Selig legit likes baseball. I never get that impression from Manfred. He seems to think bludgeoning the players is his real job, not growing the sport and protecting it.

[wsnydes]

2 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

I love the bits about how Manfred's most unifying feature is player and fan hatred of him. People blast Selig but outside of the contraction nonsense, I don't think he was a terrible commissioner. Selig legit likes baseball. I never get that impression from Manfred. He seems to think bludgeoning the players is his real job, not growing the sport and protecting it.

This is just my opinion, but to me the job of commissioner is to do right by the game.  I don't know how it can be argued that he's doing that in any context.