Mackey: Low Risk or Not, Twins are Taking a Philosophical Gamble

[twinsnorth49]

I guess I'm still waiting for you to stop banging your head against the wall and come up with one.

 

Your constant penchant for perjorative indicates you are in the idea-dearth zone.

 

I directly quoted from your post, using the very phrases that indicated you are highly dependent on "hope" and "wishful thinking" regarding the Twins near future.

 

http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/jna/lowres/jnan1257l.jpg

[gmarais66]

You make some solid points about pitchers' mentality, but I'm not seeing the connection to Correia.

 

TR says Correia is better than his numbers suggest, implying that KC's got those intangibles you speak of. But if he does have that competitive drive and bulldog mentality that Pavano was praised for, why hasn't it helped him pitch 200 innings once?

 

I'm saying that from what I've seen, Correia is a similar type of pitcher to Pavano. I'm not sure. Maybe it has something to do with the fact he's a .116 career hitter and he's frequently pulled for a pinch hitter.

[johnnydakota]

You are completely missing the point, which is what most of you guys do, because you want to believe that the stats tell you everything you need to know about a player. I'm saying that Pavano is the type of pitcher, who players had confidence in to keep them in the game (whether he did it or not). More often than not he did do that. When he was on the mound, players knew they had a shot to win. Why? Because he's a tough, experienced pitcher who has that edge that he's not going to give up. You could see it in his face when he was out there on the mound. He hated losing and he wanted to succeed no matter what. Now, a guy like that gives your team confidence. You can't measure that with a stat. If you don't think that's valuable, contrast it with a guy like Liriano. You never know what he's going to do on the mound and when he gets in a jam, his confidence drains. Things compound and get ugly really fast. Over the course of time, players don't have a lot of confidence in a pitcher like that. It shows in their performance on the field. Why battle back, when Liriano will just give up another big inning? If you think this is bs, it's not. I played and coached the game for many years. There are many intangibles that aren't reflected in stats, which affect the outcome of a game and contribute to a player's value. My guess is that you never played the game and stats are all that you have to hold on to in understanding the game. If you had "hands on experience", you would understand there is so much more to baseball than stats. Also, you threw out all those wins and losses by Pavano, but you didn't say what the score was when he left the game. Was it close? Did the bullpen make a close game not so close? What about the games he kept them in that were 2-1, 3-2, 4-3, etc...?

Hmmm so you believe your the only one who has ever played or coached?

 

ok me bad

[zenser]

12 Wins - Obviously 12 of those 28 starts went 5+ innings andhe earned those 12 Wins!!!

 

Again - 12 is double the wins of all Twins pitchers not named Diamond

Did Jeff Gray earn his 6 wins with the Twins?

[FrodaddyG]

Did Jeff Gray earn his 6 wins with the Twins?

Great pitchers just find a way to win.

[johnnydakota]

12 Wins - Obviously 12 of those 28 starts went 5+ innings andhe earned those 12 Wins!!!

 

Again - 12 is double the wins of all Twins pitchers not named Diamond

 

Not counting Diamond , no other twins pitcher started 20 games last year.

Scott started 27 games, hard to have wins with no starts unless you a vulture

[snepp]

Great pitchers just find a way to win.

 

He's no Tony Fiore.

[Boom Boom]

He's no Tony Fiore.

 

Despite going 0-8 in 2011, Kevin Slowey's still got a great win/loss ratio.

[lightfoot789]

12 Wins - Winning Record (12-11) Bottom Line - Technically he is a winner. If the Twins were one game over .500 - You would say the same - that they were winners?

[snepp]

"Technically" the Pirates were a winner in the games that Correia recorded a decision.

[Brock Beauchamp]

12 Wins - Winning Record (12-11) Bottom Line - Technically he is a winner. If the Twins were one game over .500 - You would say the same - that they were winners?

 

He "won" himself a demotion straight into the bullpen.

 

If only we could all be winners like Correia.

[Kwak]

I'd like to jump-in to the discussion of the apparent disconnect of drafting "power-arms" but signing the KC and the leper colony--availibility and cost. There didn't appear to be many "strikeout kings"/power arms in the free-agent market, but there were many "potentials" available in the draft. After the first ten selections in the Rule 4 draft, the slot price drops precipitiously. Berrios, who is likely the first Twins selection that resembled a power pitcher was signed for a paltry sum (I forget what) compared to what a ML FA salary. There appeared to be many other "power arms" available later, and at an even lower price. The FA market had a dearth of "power arms"/strikeout guys with Liriano (?!) being about the least expensive of all of them. I am convinced that besides signing three new pitchers the other part of Ryan's plan was to significantly reduce payroll. These two "goals" clash with each other in the marketplace, so Ryan placed "payroll reduction" at a higher priority than "quality/power-arm/strikeout pitcher" acquisition. Thus, the Twins signed KC.

[Brock Beauchamp]

He's no Tony Fiore.

 

****er, beat me to it.

[nicksaviking]

I'm saying that Pavano is the type of pitcher, who players had confidence in to keep them in the game (whether he did it or not). More often than not he did do that. When he was on the mound, players knew they had a shot to win. Why? Because he's a tough, experienced pitcher who has that edge that he's not going to give up. You could see it in his face when he was out there on the mound. He hated losing and he wanted to succeed no matter what. Now, a guy like that gives your team confidence.

 

This face?

 

http://i.usatoday.net/sports/_photos/2012/06/04/Shoulder-strain-sidelines-Twins-Carl-Pavano-FD1JVLHA-x-large.jpg

Or this one?

 

http://mit.zenfs.com/121/2011/05/PavanoBat.jpg

[lightfoot789]

"Technically" the Pirates were a winner in the games that Correia recorded a decision.

 

Sounds about right to me - 12 Winning Decisions. Games in which he gave his team a chance to win. That's all any ball player wants while standing on the field. Give "us" a chance. Correia cashed in on 12 of those opportunities thanks to his run support and teammates. That's definitely how winning is done. I'm sure he has no problem acknowledging that, like any great teammate. He will give the Twins a chance to win 12 games this year as well and his teammates will be proud to take the field with him. That's the chemistry TR is talking about. Scott Diamond had the 2nd most run support of any pitcher in MLB last year. Despite his mentioned flaws - teammates played hard for him. Thus he was a winner. I want winners that bring out the best in each other.

[Mike Sixel]

To the poster that said if it works, it was a good decision....that's actually not logic. For example, if you are drunk and drive, and do not die, did you really make the right decision to drive? Should you repeat that decision?

[LaBombo]

This face?

 

 

Or this one?

 

http://mit.zenfs.com/121/2011/05/PavanoBat.jpg

 

If you squint a bit, you can actually see the confidence radiating out of Pavano's face and into the confidence-needing eyeball of the teammate in the background...

[LaBombo]

Scott Diamond had the 2nd most run support of any pitcher in MLB last year. Despite his mentioned flaws - teammates played hard for him. Thus he was a winner. I want winners that bring out the best in each other.

 

Even the Twins know that getting teammates to score more runs is not a repeatable pitcher skill. Now if you want guys who can consistently improve the opposition's offense, you've come to the right franchise.

[ThePuck]

Sounds about right to me - 12 Winning Decisions. Games in which he gave his team a chance to win. That's all any ball player wants while standing on the field. Give "us" a chance. Correia cashed in on 12 of those opportunities thanks to his run support and teammates. That's definitely how winning is done. I'm sure he has no problem acknowledging that, like any great teammate. He will give the Twins a chance to win 12 games this year as well and his teammates will be proud to take the field with him. That's the chemistry TR is talking about. Scott Diamond had the 2nd most run support of any pitcher in MLB last year. Despite his mentioned flaws - teammates played hard for him. Thus he was a winner. I want winners that bring out the best in each other.

 

So now we know who the good pitchers are by how many wins they get. AND we know those pitchers are 'winners' cause they get great run support from their teammates, due to said pitcher bringing out the best in them so they 'play hard' for him.

 

Do I have that right?

[lightfoot789]

He "won" himself a demotion straight into the bullpen.

 

If only we could all be winners like Correia.

 

Speak for yourself -- I was born a winner like Correia - lol

 

Winners compete and give their teams a chance to win everytime they touch the field.

I will wait and see what he brings. I hate watching quality slow working pitchers who bring no energy to their teammates and end up losing because they get no run support. I know they are all professionals and are supposed to do their jobs, but everyone knows the games I'm speaking of. Or the guy that never gets run support and you wonder why? Because they are human beings and chemistry is the needed ingredient to make things right - not always money. Give me a flow to the game where teammates are engaged in the moment. That's how everyone flourishes in a winning program.

 

Don't hold the ball until the shot clock goes down. Work well together, because it's not all about the numbers - It's about winning.

[snepp]

http://i.imgur.com/kpTtT.gif

[Brock Beauchamp]

I want winners that bring out the best in each other.

 

I want talent. The winning generally follows. Baseball is not the NBA where chemistry and complementary styles of play are needed on the same court. This is baseball, where one guy stands at the plate against one pitcher. No amount of cheering from the bench is going to will Drew Butera into hitting that single to win the game but put Mauer in his place and you suddenly have a 35% chance of getting that single.

 

You're putting waaaaaaaaaayyyyyy too much stock in scrapppppyness and not enough stock in the ability to actually play the game of ****ing baseball.

[TheLeviathan]

That's a fair point; but I think the Twins have even openly admitted that they were willing to take more chances on high-ceiling, high-velocity arms

 

Right, in the draft. Not free agency. At some point this team and this front office needs to realize 3 year deals for pitchers are a clear case of "get what you paid for" if that's all you'll do. I think more people are becoming aware that Ryan hasn't changed that tune from the old days of being an actual small market team.

 

I'm not saying there is nothing prudent about that, but it certainly limits your abilities to improve your club.

[TheLeviathan]

So let me get this straight: Correia gets a pass for not being very good because he was flip-flopped to the bullpen from the same organization that made Kevin Slowey out to be evil incarnate for not liking the very same thing?

 

Huh.

[LaBombo]

and not enough stock in the ability to actually play [or not play] the game of ****ing baseball.

 

Fixed for Twins-specific context.

[Mike Sixel]

Thank you Snepp....

[twinsnorth49]

I was born a winner like Correia , I hate watching quality pitchers .

 

Fixed it for ya.

[lightfoot789]

I agree that chemistry is not all that's needed to win. I do believe that when you don't have the better talent - Chemistry is a MUST

We obviously do not have top end talent throughout this 2013 squad - Thus the need for chemistry at its highest level.

 

This year we need chemistry - 2014 and beyond we will have both (Chemistry and Talent). And yes winning pitchers win!! No secret there. All of the top run supported pitchers are from excellent hitting teams as well (except Diamond). That is why we need to build a culture of GRINDERS this year and make the most of it with chemistry guys. Guys will fight for other fighters before they fight for the talented SOB who only cares about his numbers. Not that all the missed FA's were the ladder, but that Correia is the Grinder / Fighter that guys will fight for is where I'm coming from. Let's See?

[FrodaddyG]

I agree that chemistry is not all that's needed to win. I do believe that when you don't have the better talent - Chemistry is a MUST

We obviously do not have top end talent throughout this 2013 squad - Thus the need for chemistry at its highest level.

 

This year we need chemistry - 2014 and beyond we will have both (Chemistry and Talent). And yes winning pitchers win!! No secret there. All of the top run supported pitchers are from excellent hitting teams as well (except Diamond). That is why we need to build a culture of GRINDERS this year and make the most of it with chemistry guys. Guys will fight for other fighters before they fight for the talented SOB who only cares about his numbers. Not that all the missed FA's were the ladder, but that Correia is the Grinder / Fighter that guys will fight for is where I'm coming from. Let's See?

I know we want to keep Lenny away from the rabbits, but could we add keyboards to the list?

[twinsnorth49]

][/font]Chemistry is a MUST

We obviously do not have top end talent throughout this 2013 squad - Thus the need for chemistry at its highest level.

 

I hope Gardy has a f***ing science degree with all this chemistry the team is going to need this year.

 

How about biology? As in biologically better players.