General politics

[biggentleben]

 

I see no reason anyone should assimilate to be here. Maybe that fundamental disagreement is insurmountable.....

 

It's called a melting pot. When you blend many metals into one pot, you do not come out with a pure metal. You come out with something new, different, and many-faceted. Why anyone would even want assimilation is beyond me.

[ewen21]

 

It's because of your grandparents and many others around the turn of the century that those benefits even exist, and most likely many of them received a government benefit formed in the heart of FDR's incredible answer to the church and society no longer taking care of the poor and needy. Those persons were often given a whole collection of things when they were received into the country. A tour of Ellis Island gives some amazing insight into just what was provided to people as they arrived in the country.

 

OK thanks for not insulting me.

 

You are correct.  My grandparents and most everyone's grandparents around here did not get that kind of benefits package.  They also had quotas working against them.  That was just the way it was and yet here we are.....proof that if you assimilate and work for it you can achieve it.

 

 

 

[biggentleben]

 

I agree with everything she said and it was a well done article.

 

What I don't see enough of is politicians willing to criticize both sides of this conflict as she suggests.  She has valid criticisms of Israel.  I hope, when it is appropriate, she also criticizes Palestine.  We have plenty of conservatives willing to put too much blame on one side and plenty of liberals willing to put too much blame on the other.  That doesn't mean the criticism has to be equal, it should be proportional to the offenses.  But it can't be silence on one side and deafening on the other.  That isn't productive.

 

I hope she is a leader in that regard.  It might be a breath of fresh air that allows us to change the way we talk about the conflict there.  

 

...and while family stuff this weekend took me away from responding in time with the conversation we had going on that topic, Levi, I do want to convey that I completely understand that Israel is not the demon spawn here. That's where I was struggling to read my posts in the same light. There's plenty of blame for the whole region over the last 60 years or so, though I'd put a lot of the blame of the previous 15 years to that on Europe, the US, and the UN. I do believe that so often what is written is so carefully written so as to not negatively portray Israel that any such verbage is seen as full-out discourse against Israel, and, of course, extended into antisemitism by those on the hard right looking to cover up their own racist/sexist/whatever-ist beliefs.

[biggentleben]

 

When he said "uniquely dangerous" what did you think he meant.

 

Honestly.  If you are going to say Buddhism and Islam are transposable terms you really are going to have to develop that.

 

There seems to be a want for people to say.....

"All religion is the same"

Where in the Buddhist doctrine does it call for a death sentence for those who leave Buddhism?  Do Buddhists (or Christians) want to burn cartoonists at the stake for unflattering depictions of their deity?  Where is the George Carlin in Islam ripping the church?  If he were a Muslim he'd have been beheaded.

 

Muslims would admit this.  Sharia Law is their choice and that is fine  Just don't impose that on me.  I am a free man and I reject it.  Maybe you want people's hands chopped off for stealing a candy bar (and it's a beautiful thing if you support that).  I am a little more easy going.

 

Just sayin

 

I'll just say you're misinformed, but in reading further as we got into this thread, I've found why, and I don't choose to engage you further on any religious discussion. Thanks.

[PseudoSABR]

 

OK thanks for not insulting me.

 

You are correct.  My grandparents and most everyone's grandparents around here did not get that kind of benefits package.  They also had quotas working against them.  That was just the way it was and yet here we are.....proof that if you assimilate and work for it you can achieve it.

How quickly did your grandparents assimilate? My grandmother spoke Norwegian as her primary language until she was a teenager. 

 

How long do people have to assimilate before you get mad? Is one generation too much to ask?

[ewen21]

 

I agree with everything she said and it was a well done article.

 

What I don't see enough of is politicians willing to criticize both sides of this conflict as she suggests.  She has valid criticisms of Israel.  

Would it be valid for me to say (as a critique) that Minnesota Somalis have been (and are being) actively recruited by ISIS?

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/21/us/6-somali-americans-arrested-in-isis-recruiting-case.html

 

It should be a two way street.  She can say that if she wants and I have no problem with it so long as she can handle the criticism one could easily dole out about her community.

The problem I have is I can't respond in kind with something (above) that is entirely factual and as you stated earlier "uniquely dangerous"

 

Agree?  Disagree?

 

[ewen21]

Would you say this guy is worried about nothing? That's "reading too much into it"?

Or that he is....and Islamophope??

 

 

I applaud this man

[Craig Arko]

The not too distant past In Minneapolis.

 

http://www.citypages.com/restaurants/gasthofs-mario-pierzchalski-issues-apology-letter-for-nazi-themed-dinner-6608030

[PseudoSABR]

If the basis of anecdotal evidence is enough to make people worry about a group of people,  it's all you white guys that I'm worried about!  

[TheLeviathan]

 

...and while family stuff this weekend took me away from responding in time with the conversation we had going on that topic, Levi, I do want to convey that I completely understand that Israel is not the demon spawn here. That's where I was struggling to read my posts in the same light. There's plenty of blame for the whole region over the last 60 years or so, though I'd put a lot of the blame of the previous 15 years to that on Europe, the US, and the UN. I do believe that so often what is written is so carefully written so as to not negatively portray Israel that any such verbage is seen as full-out discourse against Israel, and, of course, extended into antisemitism by those on the hard right looking to cover up their own racist/sexist/whatever-ist beliefs.

 

I appreciate you saying that Ben and to your effort for nuance and fair-mindedness on this subject.  The Israel/Palestinian conflict has so many layers to it that make it super-charged (religion, Holocaust, anti-semitism, Islamophobia, etc.), that I really wish we could all make a more concerted effort to get out of our corners.  It's hard to listen to Fox News put Israel on this shining, blameless hill, but the response to that can't be the reverse.  (Or vice-versa)

 

I know our diplomats are probably doing this, I hope Omar is a chance for a prominent politician to talk with nuance on the subject.  I'd like to see her decry the settlement practices but also decry how many of Israel's neighbors still want to eradicate the people there.  It bolsters her credibility, IMO, when her criticisms are not one-sided, but fair and pointed.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Would it be valid for me to say (as a critique) that Minnesota Somalis have been (and are being) actively recruited by ISIS?

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/21/us/6-somali-americans-arrested-in-isis-recruiting-case.html

 

It should be a two way street.  She can say that if she wants and I have no problem with it so long as she can handle the criticism one could easily dole out about her community.

The problem I have is I can't respond in kind with something (above) that is entirely factual and as you stated earlier "uniquely dangerous"

 

Agree?  Disagree?

 

My last three exchanges with you have shown you do not have a fair approach to discussion.  So, I decline to engage.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

What is the motive of these Islamists?  Why are they emigrating to the US, Canada and European nations in large numbers only to not assimilate and keep to themselves?  Seems to me their objective is to inhabit the entire world and outnumber over else.  

Holy balls, man, you don't actually believe this, do you?

WHY DOES ANYONE LEAVE ANYWHERE? It's not because you're like "hey, this paradise is great and all but I'd *really* like to go find a not-paradise and **** it up for them".

Arab immigrants have left for the same reason Irish immigrants left. Or Mexican immigrants. Or Italian immigrants. Or Somali immigrants. Or German immigrants.

 

Man, I REALLY need you to understand this right now. I DESPERATELY NEED YOU TO UNDERSTAND THIS RIGHT NOW.

 

Almost all immigrants leave their native countries for the same reason:

PAIN.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Where in the Buddhist doctrine does it call for a death sentence for those who leave Buddhism?  Do Buddhists (or Christians) want to burn cartoonists at the stake for unflattering depictions of their deity? 

The Japanese seemed to do a pretty bang-up job of saying all those things just 70 years ago.

[Mike Sixel]

Warren proposed eliminating the electoral college.......

 

I'd prefer it be tweaked somehow, but elimination is better than what we have.

[biggentleben]

 

Warren proposed eliminating the electoral college.......

 

I'd prefer it be tweaked somehow, but elimination is better than what we have.

 

Elimination is very much a coastal thing, though, and it will absolutely cost her being heard any further in middle America. Perhaps it should not be so, but she's basically just muted her own voice within potential inroads in the Midwest.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Elimination is very much a coastal thing, though, and it will absolutely cost her being heard any further in middle America. Perhaps it should not be so, but she's basically just muted her own voice within potential inroads in the Midwest.

 

I like Elizabeth Warren and what she stands for....but that was probably true already.

[NumberThree]

Elimination is very much a coastal thing, though, and it will absolutely cost her being heard any further in middle America. Perhaps it should not be so, but she's basically just muted her own voice within potential inroads in the Midwest.

I don’t think it’s a coastal thing. I know lots of people in Minnesota who are for its elimination.

[biggentleben]

 

I don’t think it’s a coastal thing. I know lots of people in Minnesota who are for its elimination.

 

Not a coastal only thing, but there's a LOT of the state of Minnesota who feel like they have no voice in the state due to the power of the Twin Cities. That's the same feeling that every state in the Corn Belt has when referencing the coasts.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Not a coastal only thing, but there's a LOT of the state of Minnesota who feel like they have no voice in the state due to the power of the Twin Cities. That's the same feeling that every state in the Corn Belt has when referencing the coasts.

Well, every minority population feels like that, no matter where they are or what their make up is (race/religion/gender-identity/sexual-identity/geography/Pepsi-drinkers). 

[Mike Sixel]

Not a coastal only thing, but there's a LOT of the state of Minnesota who feel like they have no voice in the state due to the power of the Twin Cities. That's the same feeling that every state in the Corn Belt has when referencing the coasts.

How much power should less than one third the population have in the state? Probably not even one fourth the tax base.

[Mike Sixel]

FWIW, the majority of the US thinks it should be abolished.....

 

also,

 

https://www.craigcalcaterra.com/blog/abolish-the-electoral-college

[PseudoSABR]

An Oklahoma sheriff quit in protest over dangerous jail conditions. So did all the deputies.

 

An incredible story.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Elimination is very much a coastal thing, though, and it will absolutely cost her being heard any further in middle America. Perhaps it should not be so, but she's basically just muted her own voice within potential inroads in the Midwest.

Yepppppppp. It's an idiotic stance, to be blunt about it. Even if she's right - and abolition is definitely better than what we have now - it's a dumb political stance that doesn't really win you much in the primary but can lose you a lot in a general.

 

And I say this as a person who tepidly prefers Warren over the rest of the field right now.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I don’t think it’s a coastal thing. I know lots of people in Minnesota who are for its elimination.

Minnesota doesn't really benefit much from it, though. We're smack-dab in the middle of population, which makes us pretty EC-neutral.

[Mike Sixel]

Yepppppppp. It's an idiotic stance, to be blunt about it. Even if she's right - and abolition is definitely better than what we have now - it's a dumb political stance.

 

And I say this as a person who tepidly prefers Warren over the rest of the field right now.

So she should lie? I mean, if this is her belief.....

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

So she should lie? I mean, if this is her belief.....

Don't stump for it. Just ignore it.

 

Also, it's basically a pie-in-the-sky proposition. She may as well be out there stumping for mandated Taco Tuesdays. It won't get through the legislature in the numbers needed.

 

Also, we like to ignore that Obama actually overperformed the popular vote in the EC, too. This can swing both ways.

 

Instead of complaining about rules that can't be changed, Democrats should spend a little time reflecting why they're consistently getting their asses kicked under that ruleset.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Don't stump for it. Just ignore it.

 

Also, it's basically a pie-in-the-sky proposition. She may as well be out there stumping for mandated Taco Tuesdays. It won't get through the legislature in the numbers needed.

 

Also, we like to ignore that Obama actually overperformed the popular vote in the EC, too. This can swing both ways.

 

Instead of complaining about rules that can't be changed, Democrats should spend a little time reflecting why they're consistently getting their asses kicked under that ruleset.

 

Trump is the poster boy for the bulk of EC criticism.  Yeah, it's not a great system, could stand some tweaks.  (Like your suggestion last time this came up)

 

But most people who stomp their feet about it are doing it because they lost.  Or, as in Mike's blog link, they just ninja kick an impressive set of strawmen while they pretend it's not because they lost.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Trump is the poster boy for the bulk of EC criticism.  Yeah, it's not a great system, could stand some tweaks.  (Like your suggestion last time this came up)

 

But most people who stomp their feet about it are doing it because they lose.  Or, as in Mike's blog link, they just ninja kick an impressive set of strawman while they pretend it's not because they lost.

My biggest problem with the EC has little to do with its "unfairness" and a whole lot to do with its "let's drive a wedge to divide the country in two, allowing politicians to crawl to their respective corners instead of the middle".

 

So, yes, let's fix that part of it. If a presidential candidate can flat-out ignore 40% of the country and still win, the system is broken and needs repair.

[PseudoSABR]

What I will give Warren a ton of credit for is that she's floating substantive policy ideas, seemingly a new one each week.  I doubt that she will campaign on all these ideas, but she's learning a whole heck of a lot about how they are being received.  Have any other candidates proposed any kind of policy beyond generic Medicare for all and tax the rich but we won't say how?

[TheLeviathan]

That's true, she is market testing ideas.  But how meaningful is the reaction right now?  Isn't the real test for that the primaries?