After Astros Series -- MESSAGE RECEIVED

[Brandon Warne]

Wrote about the smoldering mess Houston left behind this week. As always, thoughtful discussion appreciated: 

 

http://zonecoverage.com/2017/twins/warne-after-the-astros-series-message-received/

[yarnivek1972]

I'm not sure how a game where the Twins held a 6 run lead with two innings to play didn't qualify as the most winnable.

 

I don't think it is necesary to re-hash the bullpen usage argument. Frankly, even a tired pitcher should be able to get 3 outs without allowing 5 runs. Even Wheeler did so. Twice. Anyone who can't shouldn't be on the team. And he no longer is.

[Han Joelo]

Nicely written, Brandon.  I think, and this is only partial hindsight, that the idea of bringing up two long relievers to mop up potential bad starts by the Twins three best starters was incredibly bad mojo for the team.  Rucinzki had already shown himself to be mediocre, and Wheeler hadn't ever relieved, so they weren't the types to bring in as late inning replacements.  Hildy, Busenitz, or Wimmers would have been of a lot more use in those two games that looked winnable.

 

Water under the bridge, at this point.  Here's hoping everyone from the players up to the top managers learned something, so this mistake isn't repeated.

[Brandon Warne]

 

I'm not sure how a game where the Twins held a 6 run lead with two innings to play didn't qualify as the most winnable.

I don't think it is necesary to re-hash the bullpen usage argument. Frankly, even a tired pitcher should be able to get 3 outs without allowing 5 runs. Even Wheeler did so. Twice. Anyone who can't shouldn't be on the team. And he no longer is.

 

I'm talking about when looking at the series on the whole beforehand.

 

You understand why that logic doesn't work, right? Chris Gimenez got three outs and allowed just two runs. Should have used him, then?

 

You can't look back at how a game played out and make decisions after the fact. Decision makers don't have that luxury when making those decisions. 

[KirbyDome89]

 

You can't look back at how a game played out and make decisions after the fact. Decision makers don't have that luxury when making those decisions. 

I'm sure you can see how that logic won't fly either..

 

Obviously the manager and FO aren't clairvoyants but if your argument is that criticism of their moves is unfair because they don't know the results then you're defaulting to the position that every decision they make is the correct one. 

[Riverbrian]

If Wheeler and Rucinski were only up in case of a short start. Only 1 pitcher was necessary for that purpose.

 

I don't blame Molitor for his decisions... It is what a manager is supposed to do but let's make sure that the front office understands that Rucinski would only be used by Molitor if a strange confluence of events puts the game out of reach by large proportions. If the front office understands this they don't call him up because it is a waste of a roster spot because the odds of him ever pitching were fairly low. 

 

 

The front office and Paul were not on the same page here. In my opinion of course. 

 

If I'm right... it wouldn't be the first time and nobody needs to be fired over it.  Businesses all across the world are not on the same page often. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DaveW]

Again, how anyone can defend anyone in the organization: Falvey, Molitor or ANY of the guys in the bullpen after that embarrassing 4 game stretch is beyond me.

I'm not saying that everyone needs to go, or something like that. But all of the parties above deserve a big fat F for how they performed in those games. 

[goulik]

Did Orioles fans have the same reaction after the Twins Sweep? We had a bullpen that everyone knew was getting a little overused going into a 15 inning game. What the bullpen needed was a pick me up.

 

Santana did ok getting through the seventh and you then HAVE to go with one of the call ups because of the night before. You have to call up someone ready to finish that game one. Having failed that, the rest of the weeks bullpen performance isn't all that surprising to me. It's halfway expected. You can't take a mediocre bullpen and over expose them and not expect them to turn into pumpkins (two years in a row)

 

We need an elite go to in a pinch reliever to emerge or be acquired before these bullpen questions will be resolved.

[David HK]

 

I'm talking about when looking at the series on the whole beforehand.

 

You understand why that logic doesn't work, right? Chris Gimenez got three outs and allowed just two runs. Should have used him, then?

 

You can't look back at how a game played out and make decisions after the fact. Decision makers don't have that luxury when making those decisions. 

 

I'm talking about when looking at the series on the whole beforehand.

 

You understand why that logic doesn't work, right? Chris Gimenez got three outs and allowed just two runs. Should have used him, then?

 

You can't look back at how a game played out and make decisions after the fact. Decision makers don't have that luxury when making those decisions. 

That's correct.  But--- when even the most casual fan can see what a boneheaded move the Mgr or FO is making, there should be cause for concern, if not alarm.  With the new FO, some of their moves have been sharp, but some just downright brain-cramped.  But OK, willing to give them some room being the "new guys."  With Molly, though, the same kind of ridiculous moves can cause even the uninitiated to scratch or smack their heads in wonderment or despair, and that kind of stuff has been going on since he took over.  

 

This most recent run of incredibly poor decisions has got me mooning around like a cracked-brained calf.  Again.

[Twinfan & Dad]

Twins in first place! No Terry Ryan! Young players are performing well! Sorry naysayers this glass is half full! It's not the FO fault that many young arms that could helped this bullpen mess are all hurt! I have said numerous times that the roster is a work in process and it will take time to build. Enjoy the process everyone. Our young guys are pretty good.

[Doomtints]

 

Twins in first place! No Terry Ryan! Young players are performing well! Sorry naysayers this glass is half full! It's not the FO fault that many young arms that could helped this bullpen mess are all hurt! I have said numerous times that the roster is a work in process and it will take time to build. Enjoy the process everyone. Our young guys are pretty good.

 

I agree. This team has a lot to be proud of right now. They're not perfect, but no one on the planet expected them to be. I'm just not seeing a good reason for the rising blood pressures around here.

 

If "management" starts blowing decisions if the Twins are still in it in August/September, yeah, let's get into it.  

[drjim]

I agree. This team has a lot to be proud of right now. They're not perfect, but no one on the planet expected them to be. I'm just not seeing a good reason for the rising blood pressures around here.

 

If "management" starts blowing decisions if the Twins are still in it in August/September, yeah, let's get into it.

If you can't freak out

[Brandon Warne]

 

Did Orioles fans have the same reaction after the Twins Sweep? We had a bullpen that everyone knew was getting a little overused going into a 15 inning game. What the bullpen needed was a pick me up.

Santana did ok getting through the seventh and you then HAVE to go with one of the call ups because of the night before. You have to call up someone ready to finish that game one. Having failed that, the rest of the weeks bullpen performance isn't all that surprising to me. It's halfway expected. You can't take a mediocre bullpen and over expose them and not expect them to turn into pumpkins (two years in a row)

We need an elite go to in a pinch reliever to emerge or be acquired before these bullpen questions will be resolved.

 

I don't agree that you have to go to one of the call ups. They were there to give length. It was odd that Wheeler ended up working shorter stints later on, but when you have six outs to get, I don't have a problem with using "your guys." 

[yarnivek1972]

 

I don't agree that you have to go to one of the call ups. They were there to give length. It was odd that Wheeler ended up working shorter stints later on, but when you have six outs to get, I don't have a problem with using "your guys." 

You keep saying that.  Unless your name is Derek Falvey, you are just guessing as to why he called up who he did and what potential role he envisioned for them.

 

The alternate opinion that one of the callups should have been used is equally as  justifiable as yours.

 

And just for the record, in my case at least, this is absolutely NOT a case of 20/20 hindsight.  Feel free to check the game thread.  When I saw Pressly warming up in the top of the 7th I posted something like "why Pressly?" before he even threw a pitch.

[Brandon Warne]

Well why else would they call up a starter if he's not going to be used in the rotation? I don't think I'm exactly going out on a limb here as far as Wheeler is concerned.

[yarnivek1972]

 

Well why else would they call up a starter if he's not going to be used in the rotation? I don't think I'm exactly going out on a limb here as far as Wheeler is concerned.

 

 

Pretty sure two guys were called up Tuesday.  Some reason you are not mentioning Rucinski?  Perhaps, because your narrative really doesn't fit him?  I don't necessarily agree that he was the right guy to call up, but for whatever reason he was the guy called up.  He should have been used with a 6 run lead.  There is no doubt in my mind.  And there never was.

[Brandon Warne]

 

Pretty sure two guys were called up Tuesday.  Some reason you are not mentioning Rucinski?  Perhaps, because your narrative really doesn't fit him?  I don't necessarily agree that he was the right guy to call up, but for whatever reason he was the guy called up.  He should have been used with a 6 run lead.  There is no doubt in my mind.  And there never was.

 

Because he did pitch that day -- and got crushed? As I noted in my original piece, I don't see why he was called up instead of Boshers anyway.

[goulik]

I don't agree that you have to go to one of the call ups. They were there to give length. It was odd that Wheeler ended up working shorter stints later on, but when you have six outs to get, I don't have a problem with using "your guys."

 

My main point is the second sentence... The call up needed to be someone ready to go because (first sentence) you need to be able to use that call up in game one. I should have reversed the sentences for that emphasis but typed that on a short break at work...

[yarnivek1972]

Because he did pitch that day -- and got crushed? As I noted in my original piece, I don't see why he was called up instead of Boshers anyway.

That's an interesting take considering you have been critical of second guessing in your posts on this subject.

 

Further, I don't think it is in any way fair to say that because Rucinski gave up 3 runs in the 9th that he would have done so in the 8th. Just a hunch that batters have a different approach up by 5 runs than they do down 6. And, he would have faced at least some different hitters.

[ashbury]

Because he did pitch that day -- and got crushed? As I noted in my original piece, I don't see why he was called up instead of Boshers anyway.

With an 8-2 lead the job of the bullpen is to get outs. OBP is more important than SLG. Give up a few meaningless runs - who cares, get the game over. "You had one job. Get six outs."

 

Pressly: 6 batters faced, 1 out - .833

Breslow: 4 BF, 1 out - .750

Belisle: 4 BF, 1 out - .750

Rucinski: 8 BF, 3 out - .625

 

All of these are unacceptable. Some are worse than others. Combine Breslow and Belisle and compare to Rucinski, and he got 1 more out in the same opportunities. Or compare Pressly directly to Rucinski, and he gave up the same baserunners except got 2 more outs.

 

Rucinski did the best of the 4 relievers Paul ran out there. Make of that what you will.

 

Boshers was not an option when Paul had to decide, and is irrelevant to the discussion. Unless, if Paul had a temper tantrum about who was called up, and didn't put in the "fresh" arm he was given, as some kind of passive-aggressive message to the FO, then that looks even worse.

 

I've said previously that it was more important to get the bullpen rested so as to be better prepared to face the next several games, than to focus on this one game seemingly in the bag. But even if you do focus on trying to win that one game, the decision that day looks poorly conceived.

 

[Doomtints]

 

It's great that the Twins are actually playing meaningful games in June. I think that's why people are at least wondering, if not downright questioning management. These guys are doing well and deserve some decent support from their manage and FO.  They didn't get it Sunday or against the Astros, the FO called up the wrong guys and Molitor managed the games poorly. I'm enjoying the year immensely.  Part of this year is evaluating the entire organization , including the manager. It's fair to call him out when he makes basic mistakes.  

 

In spite of the problems this team has, they keep on winning.

 

What some are advocating can be compared to filing for divorce when the marriage is good, but you don't like the way your spouse butters toast.

 

I trust that this team is having the right conversations behind the scenes. Like players, management has to adjust constantly.

 

The Twins need some pitching help and if this team can step up and win with what they've got until the trade deadline, I'm betting they will get some. Teams should never trade off assets for relievers, but they can make deals where cash is the primary factor.