Red Sox don't like Machado

[TheLeviathan]

 

Machado was interviewed last night after the game, and he was angry. The explicit rant transcript can be found here. I don't blame him for being this angry because the Red Sox continue to throw 100 MPH pitches at his knees and head.

A positive: Machado hit a moon shot HR off Sale later on in the game. 

 

I love it when pissing contests are called "rivalries".  Good lord.

[Mike Sixel]

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/stop-throwing-things-at-other-people/

 

 

[Squirrel]

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/stop-throwing-things-at-other-people/

I can't like this enough. Absolutely right. Most excellent. And on and on ...

[twinssporto]

I'm probably going to get torn apart for saying this but I like the occasional beaning (NOT HEAD HUNTING THOUGH).  Brush backs and occasional retaliation beanings in the back or butt is a part of the game and will most likely never go away.

 

What's more amazing to me is the ongoing fighting in the NHL.  Seriously, if there was something to ban its got to be that...

[Comrade Bork]

 

Be careful what you wish for.  This game has become sissyfied enough already!!

That's a garbage statement.  Sissyfied my ass.  Throwing at someone doesnt make you tough, hitting a double after almost getting beaned in the head is what makes you tough.  Sale throwing behind Machado is just him jerking himself off.  

[TheLeviathan]

 

That's a garbage statement.  Sissyfied my ass.  Throwing at someone doesnt make you tough, hitting a double after almost getting beaned in the head is what makes you tough.  Sale throwing behind Machado is just him jerking himself off.  

 

Exactly, if you feel like violence is the answer, take it off the field then.  

 

"It's part of the game and always will be" is a blatant fallacy as well.  Thank god we didn't apply the "it's always been" argument many other times in sports and so many other things.

[Comrade Bork]

 

Exactly, if you feel like violence is the answer, take it off the field then.  

 

"It's part of the game and always will be" is a blatant fallacy as well.  Thank god we didn't apply the "it's always been" argument many other times in sports and so many other things.

lol.   The Aztecs always killed the losers of their "Ulama" matches.    Raise the stakes MLB!  Bring back the way its always been and just wipe out the entire team..   Tongue firmly in cheek.

 

Though now that I think about it, at some points last year, that might have been preferable for the Twins.    

[gunnarthor]

 

That's a garbage statement.  Sissyfied my ass.  Throwing at someone doesnt make you tough, hitting a double after almost getting beaned in the head is what makes you tough.  Sale throwing behind Machado is just him jerking himself off.  

Sale was fine until he started hearing the language the fans used and he had no choice but to do what he did, the environment the fans created drove him to is.  I jest slightly.

 

Outside of the sissies v. neanderthals comments that these threads always evolve (de-evolve?) into, someone on a different message board suggested that the make-up of ace type pitchers - Clemens, Pedro, Bumgarner, Beckett, Santana, Kershaw even Doc Holladay - almost requires them to find some slight to focus/burn on. I think there might be something to that in that I can't think of any true aces that weren't sorta pricks on the mound.  Some of those pitchers would certainly have done what Sale did while others might have had a better understanding of the unwritten rules and not done it but all of them were more than willing to peg a batter if needed.

[TheLeviathan]

 

lol.   The Aztecs always killed the losers of their "Ulama" matches.    Raise the stakes MLB!  Bring back the way its always been and just wipe out the entire team..   Tongue firmly in cheek.

 

Though now that I think about it, at some points last year, that might have been preferable for the Twins.    

 

Right?  What kind of rivalry is juicier than just all out war?  Drop the pretense and let's get that blood we paid for!

 

/sigh

[bluechipper]

Kevin Gausman just got thrown out for hitting Xander Bogaerts with a curveball in the 2nd inning. Big mistake by the umpire.

[gunnarthor]

 

Kevin Gausman just got thrown out for hitting Xander Bogaerts with a curveball in the 2nd inning. Big mistake by the umpire.

I agree but I'm pretty sure mlb instructed the umps to throw out any pitcher who hits a batter. Just surprised there weren't warnings issued before the game started.

[gunnarthor]

And it sounds like Jones was ejected for arguing balls and strikes. 

[ashbury]

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/stop-throwing-things-at-other-people/

"Construction workers can’t hurl wrenches at each other without facing some form of repercussion."

 

Construction workers don’t hurl wrenches at any target during most work days, so there is no ambiguity to deal with in the first place.

[Mike Sixel]

 

"Construction workers can’t hurl wrenches at each other without facing some form of repercussion."

 

Construction workers don’t hurl wrenches at any target during most work days, so there is no ambiguity to deal with in the first place.

 

it's almost like that wasn't the point of the article at all.

[TheLeviathan]

 

it's almost like that wasn't the point of the article at all.

 

Well, I'm sure construction workers could create an equally ambiguous unwritten code if they wanted to.  

 

It's really not that hard, it's just most of us act like adults when we're adults.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Kevin Gausman just got thrown out for hitting Xander Bogaerts with a curveball in the 2nd inning. Big mistake by the umpire.

 

so, the rules are different in different games? Another problem with this stuff, it creates situations like this.

[gunnarthor]

 

so, the rules are different in different games? Another problem with this stuff, it creates situations like this.

I believe that's what you're advocating for in the first place though. Throw a pitcher if you think he threw at the batter. That's always subjective.

[gunnarthor]

 

Well, I'm sure construction workers could create an equally ambiguous unwritten code if they wanted to.  

 

It's really not that hard, it's just most of us act like adults when we're adults.

I think you're underestimating how hard it is. Every single major sporting event - football, basketball, baseball, hockey, golf, tennis - has athletes not acting like adults under your meaning. Even Roger Federer, the poster boy for niceness, curses loudly. 

 

Hell, you've just spent several hundred words arguing that players actions on the field make FANS act immaturely. So this idea that players should act in a superficial grown up way is, again, absurd. Players do act like grown ups. They just act like grown ups in a much more competitive and important job than yours. Swearing, barking, staring down opponents - all things you've associated with immature acts - are normal and correct behaviors.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I believe that's what you're advocating for in the first place though. Throw a pitcher if you think he threw at the batter. That's always subjective.

 

I'm arguing that the culture should change, and that no one should think throwing a baseball at someone on purpose is a good idea. I'm not sure what I've stated about when someone does hit someone.

 

I would say that if you throw behind a player, you should be thrown out. either it was on purpose, or you are so bad (hahahahahaha) that you might hurt someone by accident.

 

 

[gunnarthor]

 

 

 

I would say that if you throw behind a player, you should be thrown out. either it was on purpose, or you are so bad (hahahahahaha) that you might hurt someone by accident.

That was the Tiger's view of Haley.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I think you're underestimating how hard it is. Every single major sporting event - football, basketball, baseball, hockey, golf, tennis - has athletes not acting like adults under your meaning. Even Roger Federer, the poster boy for niceness, curses loudly. 

 

Hell, you've just spent several hundred words arguing that players actions on the field make FANS act immaturely. So this idea that players should act in a superficial grown up way is, again, absurd. Players do act like grown ups. They just act like grown ups in a much more competitive and important job than yours. Swearing, barking, staring down opponents - all things you've associated with immature acts - are normal and correct behaviors.

 

I don't think acting like adults is superficial.  You can be competitive without the unwritten rules being necessary.  I think that's really the crux of the disagreement.  And I'm more than a bit baffled that you think competitiveness requires this.  Or that rivalries require it.

 

Really, all the unwritten rules do is offer shade to overly sensitive players that want to enact revenge.  And if you want to be overly sensitive in any job and enact revenge, you could.  It's just most of us don't, because laws prevent us from doing it and basic decorum. Baseball allows it to operate because, for whatever reason, trying to hurt someone else is ok.

 

It doesn't have to be.   I played football and hockey, I had rivalries, I was competitive, and never once did I feel I had to intentionally try to hurt the other player in order to stay competitive. 

[ashbury]

it's almost like that wasn't the point of the article at all.

It's almost like that was a terrible analogy that provided no insight at all. Since the article provided no information other than that one analogy, I stopped there with my discussion of it.

 

The article boiled down to, "pitchers throw at batters, that's bad, pitchers throw at batters, that's bad". I agree it's bad, but saying to stop it is pointless, since it's been said before. Insight as to why they do it is needed before anything useful can be proposed. I have my theories, concerning a culture that forbids the expression of fear or pain, but they're half-baked.

[gunnarthor]

 

 

 

It doesn't have to be.   I played football and hockey, I had rivalries, I was competitive, and never once did I feel I had to intentionally try to hurt the other player in order to stay competitive. 

I very much don't believe this. HS coaches instructed us to, and I'm quoting, "****ing kill" the other guys. Our coach gave out a "hit of the week" award to the kid who had the best tackle. That tackle was usually one where the opponent stayed down.  Sure, maybe we didn't actively hit people in the knees but we sure as hell wanted to make them cry. And there was **** after the whistle in every game.  I went to a small HS. There is no way my coach was the only coach in the state - let alone the country - pushing this.  And we saw with the Saint bounty thing that pros were commonly doing the same thing. Sport environments aren't anything like a regular work office and the idea that they should act like you or I is ridiculous.   

[TheLeviathan]

 

I very much don't believe this. HS coaches instructed us to, and I'm quoting, "****ing kill" the other guys. Our coach gave out a "hit of the week" award to the kid who had the best tackle. That tackle was usually one where the opponent stayed down.  Sure, maybe we didn't actively hit people in the knees but we sure as hell wanted to make them cry. And there was **** after the whistle in every game.  I went to a small HS. There is no way my coach was the only coach in the state - let alone the country - pushing this.  And we saw with the Saint bounty thing that pros were commonly doing the same thing. Sport environments aren't anything like a regular work office and the idea that they should act like you or I is ridiculous.   

 

And the NFL harshly punished the bounty thing.  

 

One can play with physicality and to win the battle without deliberate intention to injure.   One can have a rivalry without fights.  One can have competition with the intent to win, not harm your opponent physically.

 

I would suggest this entire paragraph is where you go wrong.  And it is very much Hans Moleman "We paid for blood!" sort of thinking.  Someday, someone will use these unwritten rules in a way that shocks you and I think (because I genuinely find you a thoughtful, intelligent person) you'll look back on this and wonder what the hell you were smoking.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I very much don't believe this. HS coaches instructed us to, and I'm quoting, "****ing kill" the other guys. Our coach gave out a "hit of the week" award to the kid who had the best tackle. That tackle was usually one where the opponent stayed down.  Sure, maybe we didn't actively hit people in the knees but we sure as hell wanted to make them cry. And there was **** after the whistle in every game.  I went to a small HS. There is no way my coach was the only coach in the state - let alone the country - pushing this.  And we saw with the Saint bounty thing that pros were commonly doing the same thing. Sport environments aren't anything like a regular work office and the idea that they should act like you or I is ridiculous.   

 

This whole paragraph makes me sad, that we can't have physical sports' matches w/o this kind of stuff. The day my son quit football was one of my happiest days.

[gunnarthor]

 

This whole paragraph makes me sad, that we can't have physical sports' matches w/o this kind of stuff. The day my son quit football was one of my happiest days.

Yeah, I'm not letting my son play football either.  

[gunnarthor]

 

 

 

One can play with physicality and to win the battle without deliberate intention to injure.   One can have a rivalry without fights.  One can have competition with the intent to win, not harm your opponent physically.

 

 

Sure, and one can hit someone without intent to injure and even throw at without intent to injure. That wasn't the point. The point is that sports has never been and never will be like your office.  You've complained about Bumgarner staring at opponents. Players will never "act like grown ups" in any way that you want them to.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Sure, and one can hit someone without intent to injure and even throw at without intent to injure. That wasn't the point. The point is that sports has never been and never will be like your office.  You've complained about Bumgarner staring at opponents. Players will never "act like grown ups" in any way that you want them to.

 

I have a problem with any human who takes some small slight and blows it wildly out of proportion and acts like a giant tool.  Many of these tools then decide to hurl baseballs or fists at each other to rectify the trumped up slight.

 

I don't care where that happens, it's stupid.  And I don't find it entertaining.  I like competition and sports, not tools trying to out-piss each other over slights.

 

Sports are played thousands of times every day without it, despite your claims.  Saying "that's how it is" is a fallacy that ignores the real contention being made by many of us here, fangraphs, and a host of others.

[gunnarthor]

Not really.  Pretty much every single sporting event has tools trying to out-piss each other.  Usually violently but certainly quite loudly.  I'm honestly surprised you haven't noticed outside of baseball.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Not really.  Pretty much every single sporting event has tools trying to out-piss each other.  Usually violently but certainly quite loudly.  I'm honestly surprised you haven't noticed outside of baseball.

 

Gee, I've coached high school football for five years and have seen a determined effort to show sportsmanship.  As I've seen throughout my time working in schools.

 

It's strange how you believe a paycheck necessarily has to change the expectations for conduct.

 

Or maybe you should just admit - you pay for blood.  That's what you like.  And you're not alone, I just very much disagree with it.