Adalberto Mejia Recalled, Vargas Optioned

[alarp33]

 

I still have a dream and I'm not letting go of it. I would love for Park to figure it out and come back strong and that would take my dream to Sano 3b / Vargas DH/1B /Park DH/1B back to back in the same lineup. 

 

Mauer can mix in there... play a little 1B... A little OF.... A little DH

 

Plouffe is now gone and out of my dream. 

 

Meh, that lineup seems to be trying awfully hard to fit players together that don't fit together.  If Park figures it out, and Vargas becomes something useful, great.. I don't see it happening on the same team in any situation.  

 

 

[jimmer]

 

Sano may have been the wrong guy. 

Obviously was the wrong guy. And easy to see before the move was made he was the wrong guy.  Pretty sure neither Maddon or Matheny decided, hey, let's move a 6-4, 270 pound career IF to the OF as a permanent move.

[TheLeviathan]

The problem with this "flexibility" argument is that you need players that can actually do it.

 

For the major league minimum I'll flexibly play all 8 defensive positions, start, relieve, spit shine cleats, and even do the laundry.

 

If flexibility, as is being talked about here, is in and of itself a good thing - then I need to be hired immediately.

 

Or....perhaps....our definition of "flexibility" needs some refinement.  

[Intramural Legend]

 

Obviously was the wrong guy. And easy to see before the move was made he was the wrong guy.  Pretty sure neither Maddon or Matheny decided, hey, let's move a 6-4, 270 pound career IF to the OF as a permanent move.

 

I think the problem was Molitor's 6-4 guy didn't buy into a move.  Maddon's 6-5 guy did.

[jimmer]

 

I think the problem was Molitor's 6-4 guy didn't buy into a move.  Maddon's 6-5 guy did.

Maddon's 6-5 guy is also 30-40 pounds lighter and it wasn't done as a permanent move.  Just when other IFs needed to get some time in.  Since they have actual quality depth.

[stringer bell]

Yeah, but Maddon also used Schwarber in LF. In terms of athleticism, I would take Sano over Schwarber.

[alarp33]

 

Yeah, but Maddon also used Schwarber in LF. In terms of athleticism, I would take Sano over Schwarber.

 

Schwarber is also quite a bit smaller,  played OF in the minors, and just tore his knee in an outfield collision. Maybe not the best example to use

[TheLeviathan]

 

Schwarber is also quite a bit smaller,  played OF in the minors, and just tore his knee in an outfield collision. Maybe not the best example to use

 

I hope that was the point.  If we're going to put Maddon on a pedestal about this stuff, we should probably at least point this catastrophe out as well.

[TheLeviathan]

The time to teach flexibility is in Chattanooga or lower.  Not at Target Field.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

The time to teach flexibility is in Chattanooga or lower.  Not at Target Field.

Generally agreed, but what about a guy like Mauer?  Chattanooga wasn't really an option for him, or for a near 30 year old free agent like Park (although sadly Park's offense might warrant it!).

 

What about guys like Escobar or Polanco, who you previously wanted to focus on specific positions in the minors, but whose near future in MLB might be in a super-utility role?  And whose bats have shown signs of supporting such a role?

 

What about a guy like Plouffe, who may not be long for Minnesota and whose short-term value depends very little on his daily defensive positions in August 2016?

 

I don't see the harm in giving these guys some outfield reps under these circumstances.  Obviously it's not as ideal as developing clear valuable long-term starters at every position, but it sure beats wasting PAs on 4th or 5th outfielders just because they already own a glove.

[Willihammer]

Of the four- Mauer, Park, Sano, Vargas- Mauer is the most athletic. its not even close. Yes he is the oldest but let's remember he was the only player ever to be selected as the USA Today high schcol player of the year in 2 sports. He was also all state in basketball. He was the classmate you had who was annoyingly good at everything from the word go. And yet when presented with a roster crunch, the Twins move everyone around except him???

 

The solution is obvious- give Mauer a third baseman's glove. Rotate him into third against RHP to give the others more PT. He'd do just fine over there.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

The solution is obvious- give Mauer a third baseman's glove. Rotate him into third against RHP to give the others more PT. He'd do just fine over there.

Don't you think third base is a little specialized?  Why not just put him in an outfield corner?  That would be better for the Twins current predicament, otherwise with Mauer at 3B you still have to put Plouffe, Sano, and Polanco somewhere, plus Vargas (and ideally Escobar too right now).

 

The biggest "open spot" on the Twins right now is LF, where most seem to admit Grossman is at best a future 4th outfielder.  That's where you have to flex someone.

[Willihammer]

 

Don't you think third base is a little specialized?  Why not just put him in an outfield corner?  That would be better for the Twins current predicament, otherwise with Mauer at 3B you still have to put Plouffe, Sano, and Polanco somewhere, plus Vargas (and ideally Escobar too right now).

 

The biggest "open spot" on the Twins right now is LF, where most seem to admit Grossman is at best a future 4th outfielder.  That's where you have to flex someone.

I tend to think Mauer would do better at third, he is also the lone LH bat amongst 2 RH and a SH, but if he still has the legs for outfield then sure absolutely. Point  being, if we're going to shift someone off position, do that with Mauer the athlete, not Sano or Plouffe.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Generally agreed, but what about a guy like Mauer?  Chattanooga wasn't really an option for him, or for a near 30 year old free agent like Park (although sadly Park's offense might warrant it!).

 

What about guys like Escobar or Polanco, who you previously wanted to focus on specific positions in the minors, but whose near future in MLB might be in a super-utility role?  And whose bats have shown signs of supporting such a role?

 

What about a guy like Plouffe, who may not be long for Minnesota and whose short-term value depends very little on his daily defensive positions in August 2016?

 

I don't see the harm in giving these guys some outfield reps under these circumstances.  Obviously it's not as ideal as developing clear valuable long-term starters at every position, but it sure beats wasting PAs on 4th or 5th outfielders just because they already own a glove.

 

Any major league experimenting should be done extremely carefully and avoided whenever possible.    That would be my general response.

[SwainZag]

 

Of the four- Mauer, Park, Sano, Vargas- Mauer is the most athletic. its not even close. Yes he is the oldest but let's remember he was the only player ever to be selected as the USA Today high schcol player of the year in 2 sports. He was also all state in basketball. He was the classmate you had who was annoyingly good at everything from the word go. And yet when presented with a roster crunch, the Twins move everyone around except him???

 

The solution is obvious- give Mauer a third baseman's glove. Rotate him into third against RHP to give the others more PT. He'd do just fine over there.

 

It took Mauer, what, 3 seasons to become a good defensive 1st baseman?  Now you want to just throw him at 3rd?  A guy being a good athlete doesn't mean they just have a knack for playing positions they have never played before at the major league level.  You don't just teach major league veterans foreign skill positions on the fly, it doesn't work like that.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Any major league experimenting should be done extremely carefully and avoided whenever possible.    That would be my general response.

That's fair, although that caution seems more appropriate to permanent changes / conversions like Sano to RF.  I don't think anyone is advocating that here.

 

If you want to play all of Mauer, Plouffe, Sano, and Vargas against MLB pitching right now, one of them probably has to jog out to the outfield every inning, that's all.  Which should hopefully help you plan this offseason to best avoid such an arrangement next spring.

 

It beats the alternatives, which are to bench veterans (unrealistic) or bench/demote an interesting young hitter in an otherwise lost season...

[Doomtints]

 

It took Mauer, what, 3 seasons to become a good defensive 1st baseman?  Now you want to just throw him at 3rd?  A guy being a good athlete doesn't mean they just have a knack for playing positions they have never played before at the major league level.  You don't just teach major league veterans foreign skill positions on the fly, it doesn't work like that.

 

Plus, there are more concussion risks at 3rd, or in the OF for that matter.  Mauer went all the way to first base for a reason (from the hardest position to field all the way to the easiest).  It's not that Mauer was physically unable to learn 3B or RF/LF.

 

It's really not very likely that Mauer moves to a new position.  

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

It took Mauer, what, 3 seasons to become a good defensive 1st baseman?  Now you want to just throw him at 3rd?  A guy being a good athlete doesn't mean they just have a knack for playing positions they have never played before at the major league level.  You don't just teach major league veterans foreign skill positions on the fly, it doesn't work like that.

Every position was once a position never played before by a particular player.

 

It's also important not get too hung up on a team's past usage of a player.  Yeah, giving Mauer a different glove at age 33 would be weird, but that's only because the Twins steadfastly refused to give him any different gloves from ages 21-32.  Our conversation today would be much different if the Twins had give Mauer more reps away from C/1B dating back to the lost season of 2011...

[Willihammer]

 

It took Mauer, what, 3 seasons to become a good defensive 1st baseman?  Now you want to just throw him at 3rd?  A guy being a good athlete doesn't mean they just have a knack for playing positions they have never played before at the major league level.  You don't just teach major league veterans foreign skill positions on the fly, it doesn't work like that.

Ideally we wouldn't be teaching anyone new positions at the big league level, I agree. But of the four, Mauer is the most athletic by far, that's almost indisputable.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Plus, there are more concussion risks at 3rd, or in the OF for that matter.  Mauer went all the way to first base for a reason (from the hardest position to field all the way to the easiest).  It's not that Mauer was physically unable to learn 3B or RF/LF.

 

It's really not very likely that Mauer moves to a new position.  

The Twins put the kibosh on Mauer to any other position long before the 2013 concussion.  He didn't play anything but catcher until 2011, and thereafter played nothing but C and 1B save for 9 innings in RF in 2011.

 

The move to exclusive 1B was as much about deferring to a veteran's preference as anything else.  Which is sort of assuming as a given the very thing that posters here are challenging -- that the Twins should be capable of deploying players -- even veterans -- at multiple positions for the benefit of the organization, and getting buy-in from them.

 

And I still think "move" is the wrong term to use here -- "spot" might be better.  I think in regards to certain players and positions, the Twins themselves have confused the terms, which is how they get into these predicaments.

[jimmer]

Mauer had 4 DRS and a positive UZR in his first full season of playing 1B. And we have no idea whether or not Joe chose 1B or whether the team did.

[Doomtints]

 

The Twins put the kibosh on Mauer to any other position long before the 2013 concussion.  He didn't play anything but catcher until 2011, and thereafter played nothing but C and 1B save for 9 innings in RF in 2011.

 

The move to exclusive 1B was as much about deferring to a veteran's preference as anything else.  Which is sort of assuming as a given the very thing that posters here are challenging -- that the Twins should be capable of deploying players -- even veterans -- at multiple positions for the benefit of the organization, and getting buy-in from them.

 

And I still think "move" is the wrong term to use here -- "spot" might be better.  I think in regards to certain players and positions, the Twins themselves have confused the terms, which is how they get into these predicaments.

 

I think they let Mauer make the choice, but I would imagine he consulted doctors first.  

 

Don't forget what Bill James wrote.  He wrote that frequently players can move to "easier" positions (and, contrary to what Twins fans seem to believe this past year and even in this thread, it happens all the time), but moving to "harder" positions almost never works out.  

 

Bill James created a defensive spectrum.  Here it is.  Easier positions are on the left, getting harder as it goes to the right.

 

1B - LF - RF - 3B - CF - 2B - SS - C

 

The premise is that players can move to the left on the scale.  It almost always works out if given enough time.  Moving the other direction almost never works.  With Mauer being at first all these years, it's doubtful he could handle moving elsewhere.  Sano should have also been able to handle the outfield, and I think he did according to defensive metrics.  People are overly upset about the Sano move to the OF, I'm guessing because they did not see him play at 3rd first and did not fathom how bad at 3rd he was going to be (in spite of many of us providing his defensive metrics from the minors).

This is all a bit moot right now anyway.  For the first time in a long time the Twins have a decent hitting outfield.  Move Mauer to the OF to block a better hitter from being able to play?  No thanks.  Same with Sano.

If the Twins get rid of Plouffe, do they really want Sano at third with his touchy elbow and terrible fielding at the position?  Sano should be the DH.  This then blocks Park and Vargas.  Trade one of them.  If Plouffe goes, move Dozier over there.  Then the last holes are 2B and C, which are not uncommon last holes to fill.  

[jimmer]

 

Ideally we wouldn't be teaching anyone new positions at the big league level, I agree. But of the four, Mauer is the most athletic by far, that's almost indisputable.

But, but, Sano is so athletic. It made complete sense that he should be put out in RF because of that. Didn't matter that he is huge and never played there before.  He was so athletic it didn't matter.

 

Or so the people who defended that move said.  

 

Now Mauer, almost 10 years his senior and who has endured a ton of physical strain as catcher, is still more athletic.

[jimmer]

 

The premise is that players can move to the left on the scale.  It almost always works out if given enough time.  Moving the other direction almost never works.  With Mauer being at first all these years, it's doubtful he could handle moving elsewhere.  Sano should have also been able to handle the outfield, and I think he did according to defensive metrics.  People are overly upset about the Sano move to the OF, I'm guessing because they did not see him play at 3rd first and did not fathom how bad at 3rd he was going to be (in spite of many of us providing his defensive metrics from the minors).

 

Miguel Sano had -9 DRS and a negative UZR in the OF.  The metrics DO NOT say he handled the OF.

 

And neither do the eyes.

[Vanimal46]

 

 

1B - LF - RF - 3B - CF - 2B - SS - C

 

2B is more difficult than 3B or CF? I would have assumed 2B is the 2nd easiest to learn and succeed in the IF behind 1B. 

[Doomtints]

 

2B is more difficult than 3B or CF? I would have assumed 2B is the 2nd easiest to learn and succeed in the IF behind 1B. 

 

The middle infield are the toughest positions other than catcher.  There's a reason those guys tend to be light hitting defensive specialists.  If anyone could do it, there would be more power hitters at those positions.  

[jimmer]

 

2B is more difficult than 3B or CF? I would have assumed 2B is the 2nd easiest to learn and succeed in the IF behind 1B. 

2B needs more range and then the double play moves.  Covering 1B on bunts, etc.  IMO, it's more difficult than 3B.

[Doomtints]

Miguel Sano had -9 DRS and a negative UZR in the OF.  The metrics DO NOT say he handled the OF.

 

And neither do the eyes.

 

75 putouts in 78 chances is about all you can ask for out of a guy learning the position, especially for a power hitter.  He can overcome those three miscues with his bat.  It is the 87 putouts in 99 chances at 3rd that is unacceptable.

[Vanimal46]

 

The middle infield are the toughest positions other than catcher.  There's a reason those guys tend to be light hitting defensive specialists.  If anyone could do it, there would be more power hitters at those positions.  

 

2B needs more range and then the double play moves.  Covering 1B on bunts, etc.  IMO, it's more difficult than 3B.

Good points. My perception of 2B wasn't accurate just because most of the time you hear stories of a player not sticking at SS or 3B, and they throw him at 2B to see how he does. 

[Willihammer]

 

The middle infield are the toughest positions other than catcher.  There's a reason those guys tend to be light hitting defensive specialists.  If anyone could do it, there would be more power hitters at those positions.  

Second is actually a pretty power-packed position these days. Could be a temporary thing though.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-best-year-at-second-base-ever/