Berardino: Suzuki on Trade Waivers

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

If there was any potential trade partners, the Twins would have went through with it, right? I mean he's been here for 3 years now, and you'd think just out of respect they would have traded him to a contender instead of continuing to tread water on a team going no where. 

Especially right now, when all it would take is taking on his salary the rest of the year, and he still went through trade waivers unclaimed. 

A lot of this thread is folks saying the Twins might still be asking for a certain level of return in order to move Suzuki.  Or in other words, that the Twins have been or should be clear with other teams that they would not trade Suzuki just to open up the spot (which would influence decisions about whether or not to claim him).

[Craig Arko]

I really feel like we're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole with forcing a Suzuki trade. It's been proven in July, and now August, that no team has a need for him.

 

It sounds like the only real (but only potential) suitor is Cleveland. Barring injury, as always.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

If he's a little upset for sitting during the final month of the season, oh well. He's going to be a free agent, and more than likely we're going in a different direction anyway. He got plenty of playing time during his tenure here. 

I know we like to say "tough cookies" to players who are demoted or asked to take a bench role, but I doubt that players as a whole take that attitude.  Especially when it's not an obvious performance issue.

 

If you unilaterally bench Suzuki and his .750 OPS on Sep. 1st, and it wasn't clear that you fully exhausted all trade possibilites first, it could very well be a factor when you negotiate with, say, Todd Hundley to take over as your veteran starting catcher next year.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I really feel like we're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole with forcing a Suzuki trade. It's been proven in July, and now August, that no team has a need for him. 

In addition to the question of the Twins asking price, we've got a couple weeks to let this play out yet.  A team like Seattle, Detroit, Cleveland, or Boston might welcome a virtually free addition of Suzuki, but not if it means they have to displace one of their current catchers or carry 3 catchers on their 25 man roster the rest of August.

 

I feel like we should be able to make something happen by August 31st.  I can't imagine Suzuki is that bad defensively where we couldn't give him away while he is sporting a .750 OPS and rosters are expanding, even if it's only as insurance against, say, John Hicks making his Tigers debut in the event of an injury.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

It sounds like the only real (but only potential) suitor is Cleveland. Barring injury, as always.

I actually think Cleveland might be one of the tougher sells.  They clearly seem to value pitching and defense, to the point where they have weathered some thoroughly awful hitting at the catcher spot all year.  They did try to get Lucroy, I guess, although at a price that is generally considered less than what Texas ultimately paid for him.

 

A team like Seattle is interesting -- Zunino is starting now, but they still have him partnered with Iannetta whose once solid defense has reportedly slipped and he's sporting an 84 OPS+.  I could see them adding Suzuki as an extra option for September, ahead of Iannetta.

 

Or Boston -- they are clearly going to ride this Sandy Leon train as long as possible, but they might welcome Suzuki's 102 OPS+ as a bit of an offensive buffer behind him, ahead of the likes of Holladay, Vazquez, and Hanigan.

 

Or Detroit -- they obviously like James McCann, and Salty is useful, but they are an injury away from over-relying on one of them and introducing John Hicks into the mix.

 

Not that any of these teams would give up value for Suzuki, but I could see them taking on his final month's salary come August 31.

[PseudoSABR]

 

The problem with Buxton wasn't his August-September audition last year -- it was throwing him out there as the opening day CF this year, and then recalling him again too quickly after his epic struggles.  I don't think anyone is suggesting that Garver should be the opening day starter at catcher next year regardless of what happens this September.  Just that he, and maybe Centeno, and maybe even Murphy, and maybe even Turner could perhaps benefit from extra reps down the stretch this season, extra reps they are unlikely to get with Suzuki on the roster.  Maybe Turner looks like a viable near future backup and it makes it easier to drop Centeno this winter.  Maybe it gets our scuffling pitchers thinking critically about what they want in a post-Suzuki backstop too.  This could all be helpful to our offseason planning.

Sometimes you need a guy like Suzuki, even having him for non-essential year, to give some one like Buxton (or Garver, Turner, Murphy time to work through their flaws in the minors.) One of the legitimate criticism of the Twins FO this offseason was not signing a non-waiver-wire veteran to hold CF until Buxton was really ready.   I'm not sure why Suzuki isn't viewed the same way; he has his warts, but so does any up the middle veteran earning around 6-7mil a season.  

 

Here, that Centeno gets less at bats, because that would be the likely outcome if Suzuki was/is traded, seems like no great loss to me.  I certainly don't want the Twins to conclude that Centeno is viable starting option after six weeks of good play.  (They need to reach outside the organization for catcher.  If they end up with lots of good options in a couple years, that's a problem we'd like to have.)

[twinsnorth49]

 

I really feel like we're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole with forcing a Suzuki trade. It's been proven in July, and now August, that no team has a need for him. 

I feel we're trying to force a square peg into a round hole with Suzuki at Catcher.......

 

 

I'll show myself out.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Sometimes you need a guy like Suzuki, even having him for non-essential year, to give some one like Buxton (or Garver, Turner, Murphy time to work through their flaws in the minors.) One of the legitimate criticism of the Twins FO this offseason was not signing a non-waiver-wire veteran to hold CF until Buxton was really ready.   I'm not sure why Suzuki isn't viewed the same way; he has his warts, but so does any up the middle veteran earning around 6-7mil a season.  

Agreed, but that's a separate debate.  We have to acquire a veteran catcher in the offseason anyway, and I think what we've seen over the last 3 years in total is enough to conclude that we should probably go a different direction than Suzuki for 2017, so I'm not all that concerned if trading him makes it slightly more difficult to re-sign him, or takes away 6 weeks of mentorship opportunities.  (Although as I've pointed out in other posts, trading him probably gets more respect than telling him his playing time is reduced on September 1st.)

 

 

Here, that Centeno gets less at bats, because that would be the likely outcome if Suzuki was/is traded, seems like no great loss to me.  I certainly don't want the Twins to conclude that Centeno is viable starting option after six weeks of good play.

 

Absolutely.  I actually meant to leave Centeno's name out of my previous post, sorry.  He's at best a backup regardless, and I am leaning toward dropping him from the 40-man this winter anyway.  In that sense, more reps for Garver and Murphy could help make that decision even easier.

 

To make it clear: no one is auditioning for a 2017 starting catching job over the final 6 weeks of 2016.  And really, the case for trading Suzuki is basically saying that goes for Suzuki too -- his case for being our starting catcher in 2017 likely has nothing to do with his play over the final 6 weeks this year.  So it doesn't take much benefit -- extra reps for Garver and Murphy -- to offset the loss of Suzuki for those 6 weeks.

[Mr. Brooks]

Sometimes you need a guy like Suzuki, even having him for non-essential year, to give some one like Buxton (or Garver, Turner, Murphy time to work through their flaws in the minors.) One of the legitimate criticism of the Twins FO this offseason was not signing a non-waiver-wire veteran to hold CF until Buxton was really ready. I'm not sure why Suzuki isn't viewed the same way; he has his warts, but so does any up the middle veteran earning around 6-7mil a season.

 

Here, that Centeno gets less at bats, because that would be the likely outcome if Suzuki was/is traded, seems like no great loss to me. I certainly don't want the Twins to conclude that Centeno is viable starting option after six weeks of good play. (They need to reach outside the organization for catcher. If they end up with lots of good options in a couple years, that's a problem we'd like to have.)

The minors season ends about a month before the mlb season.

I'm not sure how Garver is going to get minor league development time in September.

[PseudoSABR]

 

The minors season ends about a month before the mlb season.
I'm not sure how Garver is going to get minor league development time in September.

What else happens in September that might enable Garver to reach the majors?

 

Garver's road to the majors is predicated on his readiness, not on whether they trade Suzuki.  

[Vanimal46]

 

I know we like to say "tough cookies" to players who are demoted or asked to take a bench role, but I doubt that players as a whole take that attitude.  Especially when it's not an obvious performance issue.

 

If you unilaterally bench Suzuki and his .750 OPS on Sep. 1st, and it wasn't clear that you fully exhausted all trade possibilites first, it could very well be a factor when you negotiate with, say, Todd Hundley to take over as your veteran starting catcher next year.

It will most likely never be clear to us fans whether or not they fully exhausted all trade possibilities. I would assume at the very least. Antony is keeping Suzuki's agent up to date on his client's status on this team. 

I would also think negotiating with a Todd Hundley type would be pretty easy... If he wants to start, all he has to do is look at the org depth chart and smile. It's a wide open competition. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Garver's road to the majors is predicated on his readiness, not on whether they trade Suzuki.  

His ultimate path to sticking in the majors, sure.  But not necessarily his first taste of the majors, or extra reps after he's shared them with Turner and Murphy all year.

[Vanimal46]

 

In addition to the question of the Twins asking price, we've got a couple weeks to let this play out yet.  A team like Seattle, Detroit, Cleveland, or Boston might welcome a virtually free addition of Suzuki, but not if it means they have to displace one of their current catchers or carry 3 catchers on their 25 man roster the rest of August.

 

I feel like we should be able to make something happen by August 31st.  I can't imagine Suzuki is that bad defensively where we couldn't give him away while he is sporting a .750 OPS and rosters are expanding, even if it's only as insurance against, say, John Hicks making his Tigers debut in the event of an injury.

That's fine to remain hopeful that something will happen. Like I posted earlier this morning, I've lost all hope that anything will happen. Having Suzuki clear through trade waivers without even a rumor online about it helps reinforce my belief that no team is in need of him. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

It will most likely never be clear to us fans whether or not they fully exhausted all trade possibilities. I would assume at the very least. Antony is keeping Suzuki's agent up to date on his client's status on this team. 

I suspect Antony wouldn't tell Suzuki's agent "we literally can't give him away" even if that was the case.  Thus, I think if you ask Suzuki to take a back seat on Sept. 1st, it's going to met with some suspicion that you didn't do enough to avoid that outcome.

 

 

I would also think negotiating with a Todd Hundley type would be pretty easy... If he wants to start, all he has to do is look at the org depth chart and smile. It's a wide open competition. 

 

Sure, but multiple teams might offer him the pole position in a starting competition.  The tiebreaker for such a decision might come down to, how did the team treat their last starter at the position when circumstances out of his control changed?  Did they successfully place him on another team, or did they change the rules of the competition so he'd lose by virtue of his age and contract status?

[Vanimal46]

 

Sure, but multiple teams might offer him the pole position in a starting competition.  The tiebreaker for such a decision might come down to, how did the team treat their last starter at the position when circumstances out of his control changed?  Did they successfully place him on another team, or did they change the rules of the competition so he'd lose by virtue of his age and contract status?

And in that case, I would hope that a player looks at the last starter at a macro level, where he played a vast majority of the time during his 3 year stint. Not on a micro level where he has limited playing time during the last month of his contract. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

That's fine to remain hopeful that something will happen. Like I posted earlier this morning, I've lost all hope that anything will happen. Having Suzuki clear through trade waivers without even a rumor online about it helps reinforce my belief that no team is in need of him. 

I wouldn't describe myself as "hopeful."

 

I'm just cutting the Twins a little more slack through the end of the month.  If Suzuki is still on this club September 1st, I'll be much more surprised/disappointed than I have been so far.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

And in that case, I would hope that a player looks at the last starter at a macro level, where he played a vast majority of the time during his 3 year stint. Not on a micro level where he has limited playing time during the last month of his contract. 

Odds are, our 2017 veteran catcher acquisition will not be signing anything as remotely rich as Suzuki's extension.  He would have to assume he'd get even less slack -- would he survive the first year, or even the first half, before it no longer became an "open competition"?

 

Again, how many decently performing FA veterans have the Twins benched or cut in August?  It doesn't happen.  They might get traded for nothing, but they don't get benched.  Doing so for Suzuki on September 1st would be unusual, and not in a "Twins-are-dumb" way, but rather a "this is just a practical reality of the business with humans" kind of way.

 

You might be better off eating Suzuki's full salary to send him to whatever fringe contender can afford a 40-man spot on August 31st, rather than asking him to take his .750 OPS to the bench.  (Unless you really sold the mentorship angle with a 2017 contract extension...)

 

If you can't eat his salary and find him a 40-man roster spot somewhere else on August 31st... I don't know.  Again, I can't imagine Suzuki's value is that low.  Maybe I'd get notarized statements to that effect from other teams, and present them silently to Suzuki and his agent before asking them politely what they think we should do for the rest of the season.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Why do people think Garver is still young?

[old nurse]

 

It is now required to write a comment on every single part of every single comment? I'll try to do better.

You once again missed the point. Long time back someone said Molitor did  not play the inexperienced over the veterans.

[Craig Arko]

Why do people think Garver is still young?

He leaves his cane at home when he goes to the ballpark?

[PseudoSABR]

 

Why do people think Garver is still young?

Regardless of his age, his experience in the upper minors is limited to this year.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

Regardless of his age, his experience in the upper minors is limited to this year.

True. Not only that, he did not play above A+ until this season.

 

He has thrown out 50% of base runners between AA-AAA this season. He will be 26 next spring. Would you be opposed to adding him to the roster this September and showing him the big leagues?

[PseudoSABR]

 

True. Not only that, he did not play above A+ until this season.

 

He has thrown out 50% of base runners between AA-AAA this season. He will be 26 next spring. Would you be opposed to adding him to the roster this September and showing him the big leagues?

Depending on the roster situation, I'd be fine with it, but I think it's unlikely...

[kab21]

 

Who cares if it becomes worse in the near future (last 6 weeks of season I assume you mean), the Twins are 49-72.  

 

I wouldn't cut him because they should be able to at minimum get salary relief (around the same time they'll be a hiring a new GM), but wouldn't care one way or the other if they did

It is quite likely that 2017 is worse at catcher also. Garver most likely needs at least half a season in AAA and playing him for the last 6 weeks doesn't change anything the Twins will do this offseason. It is also unlikely that the Twins pursue a significant trade or a major FA either.

 

It is also possible that w/o Suzuki the catching position becomes a complete dumpster fire for 6 weeks. This isn't awesome for the pitching staff or the team. Let's not forget that the team has been playing very well in July and August (24-18). The record for the season will be atrocious but I think it is good for young players to win games. 

And people need to stop act like a catcher doesn't get regular days off. This isn't like a 3B that plays every day. I think Garver will be called up and think it is likely that Suzuki only plays half of the games.

[Mr. Brooks]

What else happens in September that might enable Garver to reach the majors?

 

Garver's road to the majors is predicated on his readiness, not on whether they trade Suzuki.

Sure, but if the FO decides that he deserves a September callup, then I'd like him to actually play 2 out of every 3 games. Not sit on the bench and watch Suzuki play.

You seem convinced that Molitor would park Suzuki on the bench. I have less faith than you. I doubt Garver plays more than 35 or 40 % of the time if Suzuki is still here.

[Thrylos]

 

If you unilaterally bench Suzuki and his .750 OPS on Sep. 1st, and it wasn't clear that you fully exhausted all trade possibilites first, it could very well be a factor when you negotiate with, say, Todd Hundley to take over as your veteran starting catcher next year.

 

Loved Todd Hundley as a Mets prospect to fill in the kid's shoes. But that is a loaded job.  And the next Twins' catcher should not have a loaded job.  Not that hard to fill Centeno's or Suzuki's shoes (unless one is a Katana fan)

[Otto von Ballpark]

Bah, Nick Hundley! Interestingly, no relation to Todd...

[ashbury]

Bah, Nick Hundley! Interestingly, no relation to Todd...

Little League Coach: Listen up team. Nick, you're batting leadoff, and catching.

Nick: But I wanna play shortst...

LLC: Which part of "Hundley" are you failing to understand?

[alarp33]

It is quite likely that 2017 is worse at catcher also. Garver most likely needs at least half a season in AAA and playing him for the last 6 weeks doesn't change anything the Twins will do this offseason. It is also unlikely that the Twins pursue a significant trade or a major FA either.

 

It is also possible that w/o Suzuki the catching position becomes a complete dumpster fire for 6 weeks. This isn't awesome for the pitching staff or the team. Let's not forget that the team has been playing very well in July and August (24-18). The record for the season will be atrocious but I think it is good for young players to win games. 

And people need to stop act like a catcher doesn't get regular days off. This isn't like a 3B that plays every day. I think Garver will be called up and think it is likely that Suzuki only plays half of the games.

Trading Suzuki has no effect on the 2017 catcher position. He is a free agent. That is what I was replying to.

 

The catching position becomes a dumpster fire? The minor league options should instantly be better defensively than Suzuki, and frankly who cares if the offense is slightly worse. Again, they are the worst team in the AL

[kab21]

 

Trading Suzuki has no effect on the 2017 catcher position. He is a free agent. That is what I was replying to.

The catching position becomes a dumpster fire? The minor league options should instantly be better defensively than Suzuki, and frankly who cares if the offense is slightly worse. Again, they are the worst team in the AL

I will revisit this next year. What MiLB options? Garver isn't skipping AAA although he is the one guy that interests me long term. Turner is the next Drew Butera. Centeno is a backup. Perhaps they bring in a decent FA but most likely we will hate what we get out of the catcher position during the first half if not the whole season.