Blow It Up?

[DocBauer]

I feel like Wally Riggendof, the defensive coach who got his chance to be the head coach in the last game of the season in Necessary Roughness. After a poor first half against their rival, trying to be calm, to attempts to examine what actually has been working for the team the first half. His response is: "Not a godd**n thing has been working for us!" And it kind of goes on from there. Hell of an emotional and motivational speach, and I'm sure you've all seen the movie.

 

But the truth is, despite all the angst and gnashing of teeth, despite not being world beaters at this point...understatement...the Twins just shouldn't have this record. There really is some talent here. Please note, I am NOT excusing FO failures, or perceived failures. I am NOT blasting TR directly, nor the coaching staff. I am simply stating the obvious; things just aren't working for this Twins team right now.

 

Is there really a need to state the obvious at this point? I think there is. Sometimes the forest does get in the way of the trees. Holes there may be, and again, the endless debates as to what the team maybe and should have done before this point. Regardless of all, on paper, this would seem to be a better team than the one that began last season.

 

We can vent all we want to about Nolasco and Fien...for drug out example...as the bane of all baseball existance. But the reality is, Nolasco actally is looking like a the solid ML pitcher we hoped he would be when signed. After looking like the re-incarnation of Ron Davis...I kid, I kid...Fien's last few outings have been OK. Yes, Perk and Plouffe injuries have stunk and hurt, no question. But the losses have been a team effort, unfortunately. When the staff pitches well, the offense is in the tank. When the offense has actually scored a couple of runs, the pitching hasn't held up.

 

But again I state, this team just shouldn't be as bad as what we are seeing. To quote coach Rig, "let's examine what's been working for us to this point". OK then. If you had told me the following a month ago: Nolasco will surprise, Abad will look like a smart signing, Pressly will look like an actual ML reliever, Escobar will hit, Nunez will hit out of his mind and be very valuable and Arcia will rebound to look again like a talented young ballplayer, and will have a couple really big and key hits, OH, and did I mention Mauer will look like Mauer again for the first time in a couple of years?

 

If you had told me these things, along with the balance of the roster, I would have thought we were in a really good place. We just arent. The season is long. It's still relatively early. Despite some veterans on the roster, this is a team being built on youth. There is time to turn it around. We have one of the most talented farm systems around. Yadda...yadda...yaďda. As I have stated previously, this team may have teased in 2015. While I can grudgingly respect the FO'suddenly attempt to compete and never use the dreaded "R" word...the truth is, we have been rebuilding, and possibly still are.

 

Unless there is a major turnaround soon, this organization is meeting the proverbial point between a rock and a hard place. At what point, then, do we just blow this thing up? At what point do we just face push come to shove and lose money, cut bait, blow a couple players out, keep the nucleus of talent, and just audition youth and potential?

[twinsnorth49]

At what point, then, do we just blow this thing up? At what point do we just face push come to shove and lose money, cut bait, blow a couple players out, keep the nucleus of talent, and just audition youth and potential?

4 years ago?

[DocBauer]

We are beyond that point aren't we? This is a team being built, perhaps too slowly, on a great young talent base. Despite FA acquisitions...something new to the Twins, and something clamored for previously...there has been a tremendous influx of young talent brought up the last year or so. We all know the names, there is no reason to run through them all. And there is some very loud and serious knocking on the door.

 

The point isn't what should have been in the past, but the here and now. Frustration makes it easy to say things like: "cut or trade everybody except so and so." But that's not reality.

[twinsnorth49]

True, no use living in the past, but evaluating this team can't be done without commenting on the ostrich and band aid approach they've been trying the last 4 years.

[diehardtwinsfan]

I'd DFA Fein right now.  There are several promising options in the high minors that I'd work with, several on the 40 man.  I probably wouldn't make a 40 man add just yet unless the guy I called up I was going to stick with for the remainder of the season. 

 

As for Ricky, keep pitching well and he's a deadline transaction.  Take a decent prospect and cut your losses.  Same goes for Tommy, though I'm not sure he's going to net much, if anything at all. 

[HitInAPinch]

    Blowup a team that was in the playoffs last year????

 

Did I add enough questions marks to qualify as sarcasm?     ???

[Thrylos]

To blow it up, you really need to blow it up starting with the front office.   Ryan has proven that he does not understand the concept of rebuilding (see: Royals and Astros and Pirates.)  You got to go 100% youth, not a thing he is comfortable doing.

 

So you need a new front office, otherwise it will be 2012 all over again with the Correias and Pelfreys and Cappses

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

To blow it up, you really need to blow it up starting with the front office.   Ryan has proven that he does not understand the concept of rebuilding (see: Royals and Astros and Pirates.)  You got to go 100% youth, not a thing he is comfortable doing.

 

So you need a new front office, otherwise it will be 2012 all over again with the Correias and Pelfreys and Cappses

I hate the way this team has performed (and many of the mistakes that led us here) but it's more than a little ironic that you chose to point out Houston, a team also rocking a 6-14 record.

 

They also started their "rebuild" one full season before the Twins.

[Winston Smith]

I think between now and July 31 any player over 25 yo should be on the block. Get what you can and move on. This is year 6 now of sub par baseball, even last year with the exception of May they have been a very poor team.

Whatever plan Terry has isn't working, time to change the plan because we know that Terry isn't getting fired.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I think between now and July 31 any player over 25 yo should be on the block. Get what you can and move on. This is year 6 now of sub par baseball, even last year with the exception of May they have been a very poor team.

Whatever plan Terry has isn't working, time to change the plan because we know that Terry isn't getting fired.

Eh, I don't know about "every player over 25"... But I'd start exploring trades of guys who have minor league depth behind them: Dozier, Arcia, Plouffe, the entire rotation.

[kab21]

Disappointment is part of the rebuilding process. The Twins have a lot of young and/or inexperienced players currently in roles or coming up this season. Nobody should be shocked that they have looked awful.

 

I hope that one of Milone or Nolasco is gone by July 1st (or both) should be gone. Obviously the knee jerk reaction is both but injuries happen. Fien should also be gone sooner opening up a spot for a RP prospect. Suzuki should be playing 30-40% of the time. Plouffe or Dozier could be traded but only if a lot of talent is coming back. No reason to give them away just to play a prospect.

 

blowing it up though would be silly with the number of young players in the majors and really good prospects in the high minors. 

[Mike Sixel]

I gotta say, it won't matter as long as Ryan and Molitor are in charge, imo. Molitor appears to be completely over matched as a field manager. While that is only part of his job, it is the only part we can really judge. Last night? Not using Meyer? On a team that is apparently desperate for pitching?

 

The GM left this team with 2 bench players. I don't know how often that has ever happened.......and, he owns the 40 man, he is the one that has populated it with pitchers (then refused to use the young pitchers). If you wan't jettison the old pitchers, and your hitters are a HUGE series of question marks, why is the 40 man made up of this ratio?

[Mike Sixel]

 

Disappointment is part of the rebuilding process. The Twins have a lot of young and/or inexperienced players currently in roles or coming up this season. Nobody should be shocked that they have looked awful.

 

I hope that one of Milone or Nolasco is gone by July 1st (or both) should be gone. Obviously the knee jerk reaction is both but injuries happen. Fien should also be gone sooner opening up a spot for a RP prospect. Suzuki should be playing 30-40% of the time. Plouffe or Dozier could be traded but only if a lot of talent is coming back. No reason to give them away just to play a prospect.

 

blowing it up though would be silly with the number of young players in the majors and really good prospects in the high minors. 

 

No, they don't.

 

The entire SP staff is veterans. Perkins, Fien, Jepsen, Abad are not young. Their 3B, SS, 2B, 1B, and C are veterans. 

 

The only part that is young or inexperienced is the OF and the DH, and the DH is 29.

[Thrylos]

 

I hate the way this team has performed (and many of the mistakes that led us here) but it's more than a little ironic that you chose to point out Houston, a team also rocking a 6-14 record.

 

They also started their "rebuild" one full season before the Twins.

 

Last time I checked, Houston:

 

a. made it to the post-season

b. won a post-season series

c. lost to the eventual world champions.

 

I'd take that from the Twins for 2015  

[mazeville]

This year is frustrating. But things are much better than they were five years ago.

 

First, the pitching is MUCH better. The Twins' pitching has been 13th in MLB this year. That's not a world beater number, but it is a drastic improvement over past years. Neal Allen has been a great pitching coach and Molitor's willingness to shift the defense has worked for the team. 

 

Better yet, the team has depth on the mound that could provide the staff a boost while also missing more bats. Because so long as the pitching continues to perform, you could easily see Ricky Nolasco or Phil Hughes (or both) become trade bait around deadline time. 

 

One of the more maddening element about the team's downfall was the lack of legitimate trade candidates the team. had. The Twins don't have that problem this time around. They could trade a couple of pitchers at deadline time and improve.

 

This team also badly needs some roster balance, and even despite the poor performance of the offense some of those players could fetch something in return. Trevor Plouffe might not get the return people think he should, but he wouldn't be let go for nothing. Arcia might be rebuilding his value. 

 

So I wouldn't say "blow it up." But I really hope that this front office would be willing to take a couple of aggressive steps at deadline time to balance the roster and open up spots for young pitchers like Tyler Duffey and Jose Berrios and young players like Jorge Polanco. And they should open up spots for strong bullpen arms like JT Chargois. 

 

My guess, however, is that they won't do that.

[Thrylos]

 

Eh, I don't know about "every player over 25"... But I'd start exploring trades of guys who have minor league depth behind them: Dozier, Arcia, Plouffe, the entire rotation.

 

Do you realize that Arcia is younger than every single pitcher the Twins trotted out there this season? I Duffy is "part of the future", there is no way Arcia should not be.  He is 25.  Has a good 5+ seasons ahead of him

[ThejacKmp]

 

Unless there is a major turnaround soon, this organization is meeting the proverbial point between a rock and a hard place. At what point, then, do we just blow this thing up? At what point do we just face push come to shove and lose money, cut bait, blow a couple players out, keep the nucleus of talent, and just audition youth and potential?

 

Woah woah woah woah woah.

 

It's April 26th. Yes 12% of the year is gone but that leaves another 88% still to play. 9 of the Twins 14 losses have been by 2 runs or less. The Twins have played more games on the road than at home and have played series against the teams with the three best records in the AL (maybe they have good records because they played the Twins but that's a negative thought! Banish it!). Yeah it doesn't look pretty right now but we're one hot two-week stretch away from being back around .500 and from there anything can happen.

 

There's no reason to think about "blowing things up" for at least another month. And even then, let's not call it "blowing things up". Blowing up is a full rebuild - the Twins would be readjusting. If they're really out of it June 1st, they can look to deal a few veteran players (Plouffe, Dozier, maybe one of the veteran starters) and still prepare for next year (which was probably the first realistic year anyways with all of the Twins youth).

 

It really feels like the negativity train has gone off the tracks. Yeah the Twins aren't playing well now. But none of the problems are unfixable. Bullpen performance is variable and the Twins have lots of internal candidates to improve the pen; the starters have not been dominant but have been fairly good and we have Duffey, Meyer and Berrios in the wings; and the hitters have been strikeout prone but are young and should improve at the same time that guys like Dozier and Plouffe get rolling. And there's always Joe Mauer being the Joe Mauer of Yore.

 

Let's try to keep some optimism huh?

[ThejacKmp]

 

Last time I checked, Houston:

 

a. made it to the post-season

b. won a post-season series

c. lost to the eventual world champions.

 

I'd take that from the Twins for 2015

 

Houston won three more games than the Twins to win the second wild card. It wasn't that much better of a season, they just got a shot at the postseason.!

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Last time I checked, Houston:

 

a. made it to the post-season

b. won a post-season series

c. lost to the eventual world champions.

 

I'd take that from the Twins for 2015

That's quite a duplicitous standard you're holding, as you routinely mention how Ryan has failed horribly as a GM because he never won a World Series... Yet he made the postseason many times over a ten year period.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Do you realize that Arcia is younger than every single pitcher the Twins trotted out there this season? I Duffy is "part of the future", there is no way Arcia should not be.  He is 25.  Has a good 5+ seasons ahead of him

I like Arcia, I like him a lot... But on a team with what seems like 20 DH/1B/bad OF types, he's somewhat expendable.

 

But I wouldn't trade him until his stock reestablishes itself and I wouldn't bend over backwards to trade him at all.

 

But in an org with Buxton, Rosario (also a trade possibility), Kepler, Mauer, Park, and Sano... It's hard to fit in another non-athletic guy anywhere on the diamond.

[alarp33]

 

That's quite a duplicitous standard you're holding, as you routinely mention how Ryan has failed horribly as a GM because he never won a World Series... Yet he made the postseason many times over a ten year period.

 

The Astros have been to the World Series with a previous regime, years later blew things up in a rebuild, and have a won a playoff series with a rebuilt team... all since the Twins last won a single playoff game

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

The Astros have been to the World Series with a previous regime, years later blew things up in a rebuild, and have a won a playoff series with a rebuilt team... all since the Twins last won a single playoff game

So we're applying a sliding scale, I see.

 

They're not my rules. I applaud Houston for making the postseason in 2015, just as I applauded the Twins for making the postseason many times from 2002-2010.

 

But if a standard holds for one team, it holds for the other 29 as well.

[JaleelWhite FanClub]

 

The GM left this team with 2 bench players. I don't know how often that has ever happened.......and, he owns the 40 man, he is the one that has populated it with pitchers (then refused to use the young pitchers). 

 

He does own the 40-man. Which makes the fact the Twins gave up their AAA catcher (who was performing well so far this season) for nothing to make room for a guy that asked for his release later that same day inexcusable and embarrassing.

 

I also think the same thing every time the bullpen blows a game. You know, the bullpen, priority number 1 this past offseason.

 

We've had four years to rebuild, but Ryan refused to go all in (holding onto an All Star closer, resigning the likes of Suzuki, etc.) This year should in no way have the term "rebuild" attached to it. The prospects have arrived and the top priority for the team is to work with them and give them the right resources and handling for their advancement.

 

But I can't say what I see from the FO makes me confident that this will happen. Take Alex Meyer, who when given the chance to start again, has shined at AAA. But instead of letting him continue to pitch and gain confidence, in a panic move to fix the bullpen mess he made, Ryan calls him up to pitch out of the Twins pen. You know, basically a demotion (given he was supposedly being groomed as a starter, again). Throwing 10-20 pitches twice or three times a week hardly seems like the best use of a top prospect. Same goes for wasting Polanco and Kepler on the Twins bench the past two weeks or so.

[gunnarthor]

We should probably calm down.  The Twins aren't as bad as their record (heck, this year the unlucky team according to base runs!) and they have some pretty good talent.  In the long run, they'll be fine.  I thought they'd finish second in the central this year and probably make the playoffs in the expanded wild card.  That probably doesn't happen now but the future is still good.  A lot of pessimists and national writers thought this would be a step back year while young guys got the experience they needed.

 

As others have mentioned, if you think Lunhow is doing ok in Houston, you should think Ryan is doing ok here.  (And Ryan didn't trade away 5 young chips for a proven closer, or make anything as bad as the Gomez and Gattis' trades).  

[Thrylos]

 

That's quite a duplicitous standard you're holding, as you routinely mention how Ryan has failed horribly as a GM because he never won a World Series... Yet he made the postseason many times over a ten year period.

 

In 22 seasons since 1994, they won exactly as many post-season series as Houston did last season.  Houston had one season after their rebuilding.  Ryan (and the Ryan build FO during his retirement) had 22.  Also Houston has been in the World Series in 2005 and won a post-season series in 2004.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

In 22 seasons since 1994, they won exactly as many post-season series as Houston did last season.  Houston had one season after their rebuilding.  Ryan (and the Ryan build FO during his retirement) had 22.

Yet now Houston has regressed to the point where a postseason appearance is extremely unlikely... Maybe even more unlikely than the Twins' chances of making the postseason.

 

So maybe their rebuild wasn't so stupendously awesome... Or maybe it's early and we shouldn't throw too many stones at anyone.

[Mike Sixel]

 

We should probably calm down.  The Twins aren't as bad as their record (heck, this year the unlucky team according to base runs!) and they have some pretty good talent.  In the long run, they'll be fine.  I thought they'd finish second in the central this year and probably make the playoffs in the expanded wild card.  That probably doesn't happen now but the future is still good.  A lot of pessimists and national writers thought this would be a step back year while young guys got the experience they needed.

 

As others have mentioned, if you think Lunhow is doing ok in Houston, you should think Ryan is doing ok here.  (And Ryan didn't trade away 5 young chips for a proven closer, or make anything as bad as the Gomez and Gattis' trades).  

 

Lunhow has made a lot of mistakes, you listed my three least favorite moves of his. They, imo, diverted from plan last year when they competed earlier than they thought.........

 

Putting aside what another GM does.....

 

How do you feel about a 2 man bench?

How do you feel about the bullpen being the top priority this offseason, and then this is done?

How do you feel about losing their 3rd catcher to make room for a corner OF that didn't want to play?

How do you feel about the 40 man roster having almost no positional players, so if Buxton couldn't hit, your next best option as Mastro or Rosario, and then playing Arcia and Sano both in the field?

How do you feel about them admitting they didn't have a plan for winning Park?

 

I could go on and on, if I went back to last year.....that's all happened this year, and it is only April.

[Platoon]

"But the losses have been a team effort, unfortunately. When the staff pitches well, the offense is in the tank. When the offense has actually scored a couple of runs, the pitching hasn't held up." Which is the definition of a mediocre team. Good enough to see hope in one area one day, and bad enough to collapse in another the next. Ryan has to know that he cannot win with this roster. The current veterans, as a group, are not capable of winning anything of significance. This list includes SP, RP, and position players. There is a distinct difference between being ML capable, and being the lead contributor to a winning team. Ryan either is delusional, or does not have the "intestinal fortitude" to put up with losses by young players. For some unknown reason he can stomach 4 years of ineptitude by veteran offcasts, but will not stick with the learning curve of high ceiling rooks. So he ends up trying to play both ends against the middle. Sports are cyclical, he needs to accept that, and not imagine he can level the cycles. FA, and the inverse order of the draft pretty much rule that out!

[gunnarthor]

 

Lunhow has made a lot of mistakes, you listed my three least favorite moves of his. They, imo, diverted from plan last year when they competed earlier than they thought.........

 

Putting aside what another GM does.....

 

How do you feel about a 2 man bench?

How do you feel about the bullpen being the top priority this offseason, and then this is done?

How do you feel about losing their 3rd catcher to make room for a corner OF that didn't want to play?

How do you feel about the 40 man roster having almost no positional players, so if Buxton couldn't hit, your next best option as Mastro or Rosario, and then playing Arcia and Sano both in the field?

How do you feel about them admitting they didn't have a plan for winning Park?

 

I could go on and on, if I went back to last year.....that's all happened this year, and it is only April.

We've discussed most of this

1) I don't think it's a big deal since Plouffe will be back in a few games.  The other option would have been to keep Kepler on the bench for another few days.  Realistically, it's not a big deal.

2) I never thought the bullpen should have been the top priority and I am glad they didn't spend 18m on guys like Sipp.  Abad has been fine.  Pressley, Tonkin and even O'Rouke have been fine.  Perkins, Jepsen and May have been the (bigger) problem.  I'm happy to go with what we have and let our deep pool of minor league arms graduate into the pen - which we're already seeing.

3) I think losing Hicks will have the same impact losing Zach Jones did - lots of posts about nothing.  I haven't mentioned it elsewhere but I think it's incredible that people think the GM should be calling a minor league player two weeks after signing him to get the players opinion before he makes a roster move.  To blame that on Ryan is a pretty good show that you're just grinding an axe.

4) I think the 40 man roster is dominated by young players - the PP/pitcher ratio isn't much different than previous years.  The other option would be to jettison someone - say Hicks - and sign a wily vet.  I'm pretty sure posters here were against that.

5) Adding Park was a good thing. Sano was never going to be the DH.  It looks like the Twins added a pretty decent power bat for next to nothing.  I'm honestly confused on why this is still a thing.  Sano has looked better in RF - he's still not great and he will make some bad plays but I think he already looks a lot better than he did the opening week. One of your chief complaints has been the team needs talent but you also seem to be complaining that the team has bottle necks.  That'll happen. The future OF/DH will be four of Rosario/Arcia/Sano/Buxton/Kepler/Park.  They are figuring things out now.  As mentioned in a different thread, our 3B/RF/DH/1B are all hitting pretty well (in a SSS).  That means somebody someone wants in the lineup isn't going to be in the lineup.  It'll work itself out.  It's early.

[Thrylos]

 

Yet now Houston has regressed to the point where a postseason appearance is extremely unlikely... Maybe even more unlikely than the Twins' chances of making the postseason.

 

So maybe their rebuild wasn't so stupendously awesome... Or maybe it's early and we shouldn't throw too many stones at anyone.

 

22 seasons it is not early