GOT season six (spoilers galore)

[gunnarthor]

Good episode.  Enjoyed the Sansa/Jon Snow re-union. 

[Mike Sixel]

Aaaaaaaand, I'm finally caught up.

 

I really expected the dragon to show up to that large fire, to seal the deal, but it worked w/o the dragon also.

 

I appreciated the efficiency of the deaths so far this year, clearing out some of the chaffe of characters.

 

How many seasons are left? Are they really ending it next year? 

 

I didn't expect to see baby John this week, next week or the week after is my guess. Bran has to know "everything".......this is part of everything we all assume.

[TheLeviathan]

I heard they are planning two short seasons with a total of 15 episodes after this season.

[PseudoSABR]

 

I heard they are planning two short seasons with a total of 15 episodes after this season.

Goddammit give us ten episodes a season, and make two of them.  Why do the shows so often split the final season in half?  Breaking Bad, Battlestar Gallactica... I think it serves to undercut any real climax...

[TheLeviathan]

 

Goddammit give us ten episodes a season, and make two of them.  Why do the shows so often split the final season in half?  Breaking Bad, Battlestar Gallactica... I think it serves to undercut any real climax...

 

Well, the alternative is that they could pretend they have enough for 20 episodes and create 5 more with filler.  But I think I'm all filler'd out when it comes to Game of Thrones.  (Thanks a lot George)

 

I agree about the not splitting part - I'd prefer one long, epic, 15 episode run.  

[gunnarthor]

Say what you want, he held that door.

[TheLeviathan]

That episode was intense.  And now I only have more questions about Bran and his role in all of this.

 

Is his importance to the Three-eyed Raven and the story is that he is a powerful enough warg to transcend time and space?  The Tower of Joy and now Hodor suggest that is a very different capability for him.

 

Seems we may still get that Northern Conspiracy angle.

[gunnarthor]

 

That episode was intense.  And now I only have more questions about Bran and his role in all of this.

 

Is his importance to the Three-eyed Raven and the story is that he is a powerful enough warg to transcend time and space?  The Tower of Joy and now Hodor suggest that is a very different capability for him.

 

Seems we may still get that Northern Conspiracy angle.

Didn't the book hint that his father heard him once?  And Theon might have heard Bran through a Weirwood tree, too.

 

How the White Walkers were created was a pretty big reveal - want to bet the first sacrifice was a Stark ancestor? I'm a little surprised by the sudden end of the three-eyed crow, I figured he'd be more important but maybe they need to move forward. 

 

Anyhow, Hodor's reveal was good - I'm glad he went out a hero.

[TheLeviathan]

I think you are right about Theon. I thought it was a bit abrupt losing the tree and the Crow, but Bran is moving on.

 

It's gotta be Benjen/coldhands that comes to the rescue. I also agree that the Nights King could be a Stark.

 

The question is what does Bran alter in the past to help win the war?

[diehardtwinsfan]

I actually think that Bran somehow ends up with Danny at some point.  Remember he was told he would never walk again, but that he would fly. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

I actually think that Bran somehow ends up with Danny at some point.  Remember he was told he would never walk again, but that he would fly. 

 

I've always taken that to mean he wargs into the dragons to tame and control them.  Assuming Jon and Dany ride a dragon, he might warg the third.

[Mike Sixel]

I kind of teared up when Hodor died. But then, I tend to tear up during movies....

 

Interesting change from the books that Euron doesn't have a "dragon horn".....that kingsmoot was so well written in the books....seeing what the show did almost made me want to read the next one.

[TheLeviathan]

Yeah, the Kingsmoot needed to be abbreviated, but that was a bit too much.  Honestly though, isn't arriving with a fleet of ships a more convincing argument than a magic horn? Euron, as a character in the books, is a host of silly issues.  He's basically a sexy magic viking pirate.  

 

But it was nice to see someone who was a genuinely good person die a heroic death that means something.  It sucks what Bran did to him to make that happen, but in the end we saw Hodor take on an army of evil and win.  That's refreshing.

[PseudoSABR]

I took a look at that Northern Conspiracy angle, as I'm not a book reader (for-shame), and I hadn't heard of it, but boy is it rather convoluted if you haven't read the books.   When the Umbers first brought Rikon to Ramsey, I thought they were playing Ramsey, but when Osha was killed I thought: welp, I guess not.  But maybe she knew the odds and was a willing assassin.   Given that the other houses (Mandalays, etc.) are hardly in the show, and we don't know whether Rob legitimized Jon as his heir, I'm not sure we necessarily need a Northern Conspiracy now that Sansa and Jon are off to rally the troops.  Though the North Remembers as a theme is pretty cool if we get to see the Freys and Boltons get theirs.

 

I'm curious what is going on with Blackfish at Riverrun, and if what Baelish told Sansa is actually true. (I worry Breanna is heading for trap (and where is Podrick anyways?))  Petyr misappraised either Sansa or Ramsey, probably both, and I'm don't doubt he has another plan to parlay this outcome to his favor.   I worry the Vale army might join the Bolton's...

 

How about that Meera killed a White Walker?  Does that confirm the Twin theory? Or was that spear she threw dragon glass (that'd be an unaccounted coincidence, as the show usually let's us know if there's special weapons hanging around).  

 

I hope the show is careful with the Bran time-warging around.  It could become really convoluted quickly.  My reading of the Hodor events, isn't just that Bran warged into past-Hodor to reach present Hodor to hold the door, (although Bran does seem to do this to get Hodor to get over his fear), but rather Bran wargs into past-Hodor so fundamentally that the hold-the-door behavior will exist when the future becomes.    

 

I look at interactions with the past as not time-altering but time-confirming.   I wonder how the time stuff will play out with the Tower of Joy and the Mad King, as Bran might have had more significant hand in both.

 

As non-book reader, if Benjen turns out to be this Coldhands, it would be hard to swallow given there's been no foreshadow.  If Benjen returns, I hope he's just Benjen Stark...  (Another aside: After going down the internet abyss last night, I encountered the character Lady Blackhart...wtf? I stopped doing research after I learned her Identity.)

 

From a narrative perspective, GRRM must have had really worked out so much of the character arcs, time-stuff, plot-twists before actually turning his world into prose.  Thinking about depth and detail of Hodor's origin and namesake is just narratively impressive. 

[Mike Sixel]

Lady Blackhart appears to serve no purpose in the main story line, as far as I can tell...that said, they spent a lot of time on the tv show with the rebels, only to abandon them. They don't usually do that on the tv show, do they?

 

Yes, the Hodor story shows amazing planning by GRRM. It is a truly detailed world. If the books were between the show and the books in terms of sub plots and stories that aren't part of the story, I'd be more in love with the books.

[TheLeviathan]

I'll try to help!

 

1) I think the Northern Conspiracy is gone, with one possible exception - what the Manderlays decide to do.  I don't think the Umbers are playing a game, I think they are continuing the show's theme that there is a racist hate for the Wildlings is a legitimate motivation for them.  

 

2)  I'm surprised they described him as having an army and taking over Riverrun.  There is a seige going on in the book so I'm guessing that is where we'll pick up.  But I don't think there is enough left of the Tully's to help.  I think the Vale is the key.

 

Last season Baelish told Ramsay he had the unique trait of being an unknown to him.  I think it was a surprise, but I could see that being a twist.  But I see Baelish as trying to make Sansa his replacement for Cat, so I don't believe he'd intentionally hurt her.

 

3)  Her spear had dragon glass

 

4)  It does seem like everything is taking place in one timeline.  I like your explanation and I agree - this is territory to tread carefully on.

 

5) I think Coldhands and Lady Stoneheart are gone from the show (probably for the better, along with dozens of other filler characters)  I think it will be Benjen as Benjen.  But it's a huge book mystery we'll likely learn the answer to next week.

 

GRRM has researched so much folklore (search youtube for the relationship of the WW, the children and Irish folktales.  It's pretty much straight from there) and so many other stories and done an amazing job weaving it all together.  Stannis is basically Agamemnon, the War of the Roses is the foundation, and there is so much more.  He has an amazing storyline mapped out, I just wish he'd get through it better than he has to this point.  It's been dragging for decades and the narrative is getting lost.  I hope he can finish this masterpiece though.

[Mike Sixel]

For a long time, I've said that while the books are mysoginistic.....the best leaders seem to be the women. I've also said it would truly great if the war ended up being driven and led by the women.

 

Dany is clearly going to get to the end.

Cersei is the real power in the Lannister world now.

Dorne is now led by women (I guess, and kind of was before)

Sansa (hahahahahahahahaha) could lead the North. (i can't believe I just typed that)

Asha (Yara) could lead the iron born.

 

Of the major houses, only the Boltons are led by a man right now. (unless you count the Vale, I guess, but could Sansa marry the kid?)

 

Only the religion seems to not be led by women at all right now.

[TheLeviathan]

Interesting take mike!

[Mike Sixel]

Ya, I'm not holding my breath on that being correct, but I think it would be a fascinating twist.

 

I still expect it to be Snow (soon to be Stark), Dany, and Tyrion that end up being the stars of the war.

 

I think it is time for Arya to admit she's a Stark, and still somehow have power......my one odd theory on her is that she (hinted at by what's his name last night) takes the faceless back to their roots, and leads the final over throw of the masters......but I don't know what's going to happen with her.

 

Maybe she kills Cersei and the Mountain, to tie up loose ends?

 

btw, is Hodor dead, or undead now? Will Jon or Bran have to kill him? That would be both awesome and sad.

[TheLeviathan]

I hope Hodor is just plain dead, but it wouldn't shock me if he came back.

 

I think we're quickly approaching a point in which Cersei is no longer influential at all.  

 

Arya remains my biggest unknown in this whole series.

[Mike Sixel]

The more I think about it, the more I want Arya to tell the faceless that they are just a bunch of punks who take money to kill people, they've lost their way, and she either leaves them, or takes them (how many are there) over.

 

Also, did she completely forget everything she learned about fighting? Ugh.

[gunnarthor]

 

The more I think about it, the more I want Arya to tell the faceless that they are just a bunch of punks who take money to kill people, they've lost their way, and she either leaves them, or takes them (how many are there) over.

 

Also, did she completely forget everything she learned about fighting? Ugh.

I think Arya's arc will lead to this for the last episode of the season.  She's an assassin for the faceless men and she is being sent to kill an affront to the faceless god - a man who came back from the dead.  Jon Snow.  So next season she'll have to decide if she is no one or Arya Stark. She'll choose Arya and die and warg into Nymeria, her wolf, where she'll be part of a pack.  (The books are much stronger about Arya's ties to Nymeria and warging ability).  

 

I think that's the only thing that would make sense for her arc.  She's not going to be one of the dragon's heads.  She's not going to lead a great army.  She's not an (obvious) enemy of the white walkers but it's possible that the faceless men are "evil" in the GOT universe.  So turning on an evil organization to save Jon makes sense.

[gunnarthor]

 

For a long time, I've said that while the books are mysoginistic.....the best leaders seem to be the women. I've also said it would truly great if the war ended up being driven and led by the women.

 

Dany is clearly going to get to the end.

Cersei is the real power in the Lannister world now.

Dorne is now led by women (I guess, and kind of was before)

Sansa (hahahahahahahahaha) could lead the North. (i can't believe I just typed that)

Asha (Yara) could lead the iron born.

 

Of the major houses, only the Boltons are led by a man right now. (unless you count the Vale, I guess, but could Sansa marry the kid?)

 

Only the religion seems to not be led by women at all right now.

Honestly, I think some of that is the TV writers trying to fix last years **** up.  Certainly Dorne is a much more nuanced country in the books and Asha/Yara isn't a leader in the books, either.  (Although you should add the old Tyrell woman as well).  

 

I don't think the ending is going to be too empowering although I do think Jon and Dany make it to the end.  That's about the only thing I'm confident in, actually.  

[TheLeviathan]

 

I think that's the only thing that would make sense for her arc.  She's not going to be one of the dragon's heads.  She's not going to lead a great army.  She's not an (obvious) enemy of the white walkers but it's possible that the faceless men are "evil" in the GOT universe.  So turning on an evil organization to save Jon makes sense.

 

I think this is probably right.  I wonder if we'll ever find out why Jaqen H'ghar was in Westeros in the first place.  (Much less in a cage headed for the Wall...)

[jimmer]

So last night's episode tried to explain why Littlefinger would have given Sansa to Ramsay.  Truth is, he wouldn't have given SANSA to ANYONE he didn't know everything about.  Like Sansa said, he knows about everyone so either he's an idiot (which he isn't) or he purposely gave her to a monster (which he wouldn't have done). There is no way to explain it, cause there's no way he would have done it.

 

That was the big problem with the show writers deciding to have Littlefinger put Sansa in Winterfell with Ramsay.  GRRM didn't do that in the books.  It wasn't Sansa, it was an Arya imposter.

[TheLeviathan]

Yeah, but the Jeyne Poole thing can't work on screen for the same reason you can't go a whole book not telling people that Reek is Theon, it just doesn't work.  It also would've required you to introduce a character for the sole purpose of inflicting all kinds of cruelty on them.  You also still have to find a way to mature Sansa into something other than a pawn.  Putting her right in the middle of the action is better, IMO, than having her sit at the Vale doing...stuff.  And then some things.  And then other stuff.  Rinse and repeat.

 

I think the most plausible explanation is that Littlefinger underestimated Ramsay and overestimated Stannis.  He assumed Stannis was going to win that fight quickly and leave Sansa exposed to very little risk.  Instead Ramsay was far worse than he imagined, Stannis screwed everything up, and Sansa was abused terribly.  

 

I chalk it up to a grave miscalculation, which would be his first on the show but it's not implausible.  No one is perfect, especially if you're weaving all sorts of schemes.  

[jimmer]

I get why Sansa had to be the one there, and I get what you're saying. I'm saying having Littlefinger be the one to take her there was nonsense.  It wouldn't have happened.  He wouldn't have taken the chance with her.  He wouldn't have given her to someone like him for any amount of time. She's the only person in the world he actually cares anything about.

 

I rarely complain about the show's writing.  I rarely care about deviations from the book.  This is pretty much the only one that has really bothered me.  Overall, it's a great show.  

[TheLeviathan]

 

I get why Sansa had to be the one there, and I get what you're saying. I'm saying having Littlefinger be the one to take her there was nonsense.  It wouldn't have happened.  He wouldn't have taken the chance with her.  He wouldn't have given her to someone like him for any amount of time. She's the only person in the world he actually cares anything about.

 

I rarely complain about the show's writing.  I rarely care about deviations from the book.  This is pretty much the only one that has really bothered me.  Overall, it's a great show.  

 

I understand the criticism.  I definitely didn't like the comment last season when he told Ramsay that he didn't know anything about him.  That was VERY unlike Littlefinger to go into business with someone who is an unknown.  I thought that could have been explained better.

 

For me, have him acknowledge to Sansa that Ramsay can be a jerk, but explain that he's banking on Stannis winning the war before they are even married.  That would've made sense, even if it had been a bit too risky. But you're right, the show's explanation was unsatisfactory.

[jimmer]

 

I understand the criticism.  I definitely didn't like the comment last season when he told Ramsay that he didn't know anything about him.  That was VERY unlike Littlefinger to go into business with someone who is an unknown.  I thought that could have been explained better.

 

For me, have him acknowledge to Sansa that Ramsay can be a jerk, but explain that he's banking on Stannis winning the war before they are even married.  That would've made sense, even if it had been a bit too risky. But you're right, the show's explanation was unsatisfactory. 

I actually like your explanation best.  It's the closest to making sense.  Unfortunately, they didn't even go there.  Oh well, it's done.  Now I want him to show up to help her even when she turned him down.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I actually like your explanation best.  It's the closest to making sense.  Unfortunately, they didn't even go there.  Oh well, it's done.  Now I want him to show up to help her even when she turned him down.

 

I can't imagine he sits on the sideline.  For one, he's banking on marrying Sansa and becoming the Warden of the North.  And for two, he knows he has to win her trust back and helping her win back her home and avenge her family is the only thing he has left.  (He'd also have a chance to avenge his true love as well)

 

I think the Vale joins the fray and turns the tide of a tight contest, routing the Bolton forces, and establishing at least a decent size army that can stand up to the coming invasion from the North.

 

Speaking of which, anyone else think Jon's comment to Edd about "don't knock it down while I'm gone" might have been foreshadowing for one of the climaxes of the season?