HOF vote/Congrats Ken Griffey Jr.

[Don Walcott]

 

In fact, he's the perfect example of a non-question - peaked at the right time (26-32), aged normally (and abruptly for him), and never really had any abrupt body morphs. He got into major league conditioning, added muscle, and maintained basically the same size the rest of the way through his career. He also was tremendously athletic throughout his career.

Bagwell hit a total of 8 home runs in two full seasons in the minors from 1989-1990 -- over 1,000 PAs.  That he turned into a home run hitter in the majors is suspicious.  He also hit 39 homers at age 35.

 

His former teammate and buddy, Caminiti, was an admitted user.  Caminiti said he thought about half of the players were using steroids during that era.

 

I wouldn't say that Bagwell is a "non-question".

[Don Walcott]

 

 

No you have to be grandfathered in then.  That is typically the way it always works.  I thought PED use was always banned in MLB since 2003 if not sooner.  But I do agree if it wasn't an agreed upon banned substance then its use should not be punished.  You just cannot go back in time and change the rules.  I see where you are coming from there.

Steroids have been banned in MLB since 1991.

[Don Walcott]

Steroids have been banned since 1991, but no testing was performed until 2003.  So Bagwell would not have been tested during his prime.

[biggentleben]

Steroids have been banned since 1991, but no testing was performed until 2003. So Bagwell would not have been tested during his prime.

And nearly none of the players during "the steroid era" were on straight steroids either, so you could make an argument that they were not doing anything banned. Until you have a specific list of banned substances that you then test for to ensure are not being used, you're doing nothing more than saying "don't curse!" without ever defining what a curse is nor listening to the person again.

[nicksaviking]

 

He was a heavy contributor to the game being unequal for him, utilized methods that were actually outlawed in the game at the time, and even faced suspensions for it. Yet, he's considered one the game's all-time great players because of the player he is, strictly observing the numbers, realizing that some of those numbers may be slanted. Yet, making the same "numbers-first" argument now is looked upon as being "in favor" of PEDs, so it is quite relevant to the current discussion because it IS the current discussion.

No, you're making an arguement against Cobb, not for Bonds. Those aren't the same thing.

 

That's like saying politician X should be president because at least he or she is not as bad as Andrew Johnson.

 

Also, today I'd bet there would be considerable support to retroactively ban Cobb's rotting corpse from the game.

[biggentleben]

 

Bagwell hit a total of 8 home runs in two full seasons in the minors from 1989-1990 -- over 1,000 PAs.  That he turned into a home run hitter in the majors is suspicious.  He also hit 39 homers at age 35.

 

His former teammate and buddy, Caminiti, was an admitted user.  Caminiti said he thought about half of the players were using steroids during that era.

 

I wouldn't say that Bagwell is a "non-question".

 

No, he did not have 1000 PAs. He had 831 PA before coming to the major leagues over 205 TOTAL minor league games. He hit 6 home runs in that time, yes, but he also hit 9 triples and 48 doubles over those 205 games, meaning in 831 PA (roughly 1.25 of a season) he hit 63 extra base hits, so roughly 50 extra base hits over a full season's worth of plate appearances time. That's pretty incredible for any minor leaguer to go from drafted to majors with that level of power production in the course of less than 2 years.

[gunnarthor]

 

Voters have talked about not voting for Bagwell based on PED rumors/suspicions. No one can seriously doubt his stats are HOF worthy (and be taken seriously, that is).  Has there even been a shred of evidence to suggest he took other than, um, he got big?

 

'He never tested positive for steroids, never was implicated in any public way, was not named in the Mitchell Report or by anyone on the record as a suspected user, and is not even on the rather comprehensive list of players linked to steroids or HGH.'

 

http://www.baseballssteroidera.com/bse-list-steroid-hgh-users-baseball.html

 

Thankfully, he should be getting in soon.

Some of that is straight wrong and I believe Posnanski later changed a bit of it.  He hasn't (publicly) failed a test but a TX trainer named Kelly Blair bragged that he gave PED to Clemens, Pettitte and Bagwell.  Bagwell was linked to Andro and publicly stated that steroids don't make you a better baseball player.  He was also in arguably the most PED friendly locker room in MLB.

Jeff Pearlman also pointed out the absurdity of some of the "Gee, he just got big, is that all you got?" crowd.  Richard Justice, who did vote for Bagwell, has noted the massive size difference in him since he retired, liking him to retired football players (the implication being he was on the juice as a player).

 

It's possible that Bagwell was clean but it's much more likely that he, along with many others on the Astros, was juicing.  I like Posnanski but he, like Peter King, has a bit of hero-worship for players and I think his views on Bagwell are a bit naive. 

[gunnarthor]

 

And nearly none of the players during "the steroid era" were on straight steroids either, so you could make an argument that they were not doing anything banned. Until you have a specific list of banned substances that you then test for to ensure are not being used, you're doing nothing more than saying "don't curse!" without ever defining what a curse is nor listening to the person again.

This was a big argument of Bonds supporters - because the PEDs he was using were new drugs and mixtures they weren't on and FDA list of banned drugs so, by definition, he couldn't be using steroids.  It was a weak argument.

[biggentleben]

This was a big argument of Bonds supporters - because the PEDs he was using were new drugs and mixtures they weren't on and FDA list of banned drugs so, by definition, he couldn't be using steroids. It was a weak argument.

It's still not a violation of anything, however weak you view the argument, though. If the substance wasn't specifically banned and the player did not test positive, it's complete speculation.

[biggentleben]

Some of that is straight wrong and I believe Posnanski later changed a bit of it. He hasn't (publicly) failed a test but a TX trainer named Kelly Blair bragged that he gave PED to Clemens, Pettitte and Bagwell. Bagwell was linked to Andro and publicly stated that steroids don't make you a better baseball player. He was also in arguably the most PED friendly locker room in MLB.

Jeff Pearlman also pointed out the absurdity of some of the "Gee, he just got big, is that all you got?" crowd. Richard Justice, who did vote for Bagwell, has noted the massive size difference in him since he retired, liking him to retired football players (the implication being he was on the juice as a player).

 

It's possible that Bagwell was clean but it's much more likely that he, along with many others on the Astros, was juicing. I like Posnanski but he, like Peter King, has a bit of hero-worship for players and I think his views on Bagwell are a bit naive.

Um, you maybe need to talk with guys like Brad Culpepper and Nick Hardwick about why NFL players frequently drop massive weight after leaving the game, because it really has nothing to do with steroids.

[Don Walcott]

 

No, he did not have 1000 PAs. He had 831 PA before coming to the major leagues over 205 TOTAL minor league games. He hit 6 home runs in that time, yes, but he also hit 9 triples and 48 doubles over those 205 games, meaning in 831 PA (roughly 1.25 of a season) he hit 63 extra base hits, so roughly 50 extra base hits over a full season's worth of plate appearances time. That's pretty incredible for any minor leaguer to go from drafted to majors with that level of power production in the course of less than 2 years.

I apologize, I read his stats wrong on BR.  6 home runs in 831 PA.  4 home runs in a full AA season.  Then he goes to Houston and becomes a great home run hitter in the Astrodome.  His last big home run season coincides with the first season of testing.  Sorry, I have suspicions.  Of course, we are all just voicing opinions, so try not to get angry about mine.

[biggentleben]

I apologize, I read his stats wrong on BR. 6 home runs in 831 PA. 4 home runs in a full AA season. Then he goes to Houston and becomes a great home run hitter in the Astrodome. His last big home run season coincides with the first season of testing. Sorry, I have suspicions. Of course, we are all just voicing opinions, so try not to get angry about mine.

Not angry at all. He went from notorious pitchers leagues in the minors where some of the best power hitters in the game have had single digit home run seasons to one of the more generous home run parks in the majors. Add in better conditioning that he'd likely never received before that point in his life as it was revolutionary to the game, and turning doubles to homers in the minors to majors transition was a real and fairly common thing in that time.

[Loosey]

 

But we're keeping out players who were suspected of using before it was even against the rules, that's the point. Halladay has been rumored to use amphetamines, which are banned now, but they are tested for. However, Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, and many other players from WWII on through the early 1990s have talked about the incredible frequency with which greenies were used in the clubhouse, and they are essentially one in the same as what Halladay is now in trouble for. Do we punish those who used a substance before it was officially banned and punished by the game?

I'm going to piggy back onto the first sentence here.  Steroids, while illegal to use outside of a prescription, were not banned or illegal in the official rule book of baseball.  That being said how many great players in 70's and 80's used illegal drugs recreationally and are in the HOF? 

 

This is on Major League baseball for A) Looking the other way when they knew it was happening Not having a written rule stating it is illegal to use PEDs.  So, in my mind they should all get in.  Everyone knows the 90's and early 2000's were an era of PEDs.  So when looking back at history you can see the deadball era and understand why HR's were non existent and the PED era and understand why HRs where so high.

 

The BBWA in my mind is trying to level the playing field across the history of baseball so you can go into Cooperstown and see a player from the 1920's and compare him to a guy from the 2000's and make a determination of who was better.  This should not be the case.  The game has changed drastically.  Until the late 1940's black players had to play in their own league, the pitching mound was elevated higher, money came into the game and players can now train all year. 

 

Let all deserving players in regardless of PED usage and let fans make their own decisions on who is good, better, best based on era or play.

 

Rant Over.

[HitInAPinch]

Anybody see this guy hit??

 

https://youtu.be/zNdsbuAQx6Y?t=2

 

Or this one?

 

https://youtu.be/mTBAF9GWHb0

 

 

[Loosey]

Does anyone know who didn't vote for Griffey?  Or their reasoning?  He is the definition of a Hall of Famer.  He transcended the game, was close to if not the best player for an entire era, and was straight up FAMOUS. 

 

[Don Walcott]

 

I'm going to piggy back onto the first sentence here.  Steroids, while illegal to use outside of a prescription, were not banned or illegal in the official rule book of baseball.  That being said how many great players in 70's and 80's used illegal drugs recreationally and are in the HOF? 

 

This is on Major League baseball for A) Looking the other way when they knew it was happening Not having a written rule stating it is illegal to use PEDs.  So, in my mind they should all get in.  Everyone knows the 90's and early 2000's were an era of PEDs.  So when looking back at history you can see the deadball era and understand why HR's were non existent and the PED era and understand why HRs where so high.

 

The BBWA in my mind is trying to level the playing field across the history of baseball so you can go into Cooperstown and see a player from the 1920's and compare him to a guy from the 2000's and make a determination of who was better.  This should not be the case.  The game has changed drastically.  Until the late 1940's black players had to play in their own league, the pitching mound was elevated higher, money came into the game and players can now train all year. 

 

Let all deserving players in regardless of PED usage and let fans make their own decisions on who is good, better, best based on era or play.

 

Rant Over.

Steroids were a banned substance in MLB from 1991 forward.  Obviously, someone recognized there was a problem, or there would have been no need to add steroids to the banned substance list.  The main problem is that testing didn't start until 2003.  I whole-heartedly agree that MLB and the teams are partly responsible for the debacle.  However, I do question the achievements of those who broke the rules to gain an unfair advantage, and I don't think they should be in the Hall of Fame.

[Loosey]

 

Steroids were a banned substance in MLB from 1991 forward.  Obviously, someone recognized there was a problem, or there would have been no need to add steroids to the banned substance list.  The main problem is that testing didn't start until 2003.  I whole-heartedly agree that MLB and the teams are partly responsible for the debacle.  However, I do question the achievements of those who broke the rules to gain an unfair advantage, and I don't think they should be in the Hall of Fame.

Ok Fair enough. 

 

That being said they still put a rule in place they couldn't or weren't allowed to enforce for 12 years.  How many players that are eligible actually tested positive for steroids or other PEDs once testing was in place?  Most were assumed to have used with no actual positive test.

[biggentleben]

 

Steroids were a banned substance in MLB from 1991 forward.  Obviously, someone recognized there was a problem, or there would have been no need to add steroids to the banned substance list.  The main problem is that testing didn't start until 2003.  I whole-heartedly agree that MLB and the teams are partly responsible for the debacle.  However, I do question the achievements of those who broke the rules to gain an unfair advantage, and I don't think they should be in the Hall of Fame.

 

The issue we also see is guys like McGwire, who used andro, and Sosa, who used Creatine, both admitting a PED usage, but it wasn't a steroid. There are lots of PEDs that aren't steroids, so a lot of these players could have technically been playing within the rules the entire time. That's where the CBA, player's union, and major league baseball are all culpable to some degree for the issue with the Hall of Fame right now, and why I really think that you cannot rail on the players for doing what was permitted within their particular era, whether it was utilizing amphetamines and steroids before they were specifically banned, or utilizing non-steroid PEDs until PED testing expanded the definition of a PED from simply a steroid to the broader-termed performance-enhancing drug (I'd actually more accurately consider it a PES, as it's a performance enhancing substance, with many of the items utilized as a cream or powder rather than a pill or injection form).

 

I do not defend the use of steroids, even though there are even medically-viable uses for testosterone-based anabolic steroids under a doctor's supervision for many aging men who suffer from issues with rapid loss of testosterone in their system. There are a number of items on the PED list I believe could be utilized in a safe and effective manner if teams were willing to invest in the medical care and oversight to do such, but they can be abused if unsupervised, and most players aren't willing to go to a point where their teams control the level of their lives probably necessary to make those PEDs viably legal in the sport. However, there are some that I just don't understand, like HGH, that could be of huge benefit to players, would require minimum oversight, and could help the health of the players in the game, but no one wants to make the effort to research how to utilize them in a healthy way.

[Teflon]

I had a thought yesterday that actually made me cringe and continues to give me little waves of nausea... the potential Hall of Fame acceptance speeches of Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens. I'd rather keep both out of Cooperstown just to avoid those speeches - not necessarily for rendering portions of their careers inauthentic by using PEDs.

 

I can envision only two types of acceptance speeches from them. Both are cringe-worthy.The first would be an attempt at humility so obviously contrived that lunches could easily be lost on the Cooperstown lawn. (I view this as the less likely possibility given the Trump-size egos Bonds and Clemens would have to keep in check.)

 

The more likely option would be the vindication speech. Bonds and Clemens were unjustly treated, they persevered through unfair and anguishing circumstances to now stand in their rightful places, etc. More lunches lost, some breakfasts, too.

 

I have a thought. We got so used to Rusty Hardin speaking for Roger, let's just let him handle the Hall of Fame stuff, too. (If Rusty can make it that long.)

 

http://www.sportsmansdaily.com/thescrum/wp-content/img19382089.jpg

[Monkeypaws]

About Clemens and Bonds:

 

•They were good before they juiced.

 

•There were lots of other guys who juiced who stank.

 

They were elite ballplayers, and too bad for them they mucked it all up, because they had the stuff to be HOF without all that (Clemens moreso than Bonds perhaps).

 

Not really an issue I care about at all.

 

I'd be much more in favor of Pete Rose being reinstated, or Tony O making the Hall.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Using what Aaron used didn't have anywhere close to the effect of what the steroids did, so that's not even really a comparison.

Aaron is in the HoF largely based on the ability to play 16 consecutive seasons of 145 or more games. He was a great player and all but longevity was his true skill, not an eye-popping peak. And there's a good chance a few pills helped him along the way.

[Brock Beauchamp]

They were elite ballplayers, and too bad for them they mucked it all up, because they had the stuff to be HOF without all that (Clemens moreso than Bonds perhaps).

You have that backwards. Bonds was crazy-good before steroids came into the picture. He was an elite hitter with a ridiculous OBP who swiped 40+ bags a season.

[Willihammer]

 

You have that backwards. Bonds was crazy-good before steroids came into the picture. He was an elite hitter with a ridiculous OBP who swiped 40+ bags a season.

Be that as it is, when Bonds and Clemens took banned substances, they traded their legacies for the benefit of free agent dollars and years when they should have been in decline. To the tune of 150m+ each. That was their decision. They got their rewards already. They can't have it both ways.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Be that as it is, when Bonds and Clemens took banned substances, they traded their legacies for the benefit of free agent dollars and years when they should have been in decline. To the tune of 150m+ each. That was their decision. They got their rewards already. They can't have it both ways.

That wasn't my point, but okay. I merely pointed out that Bonds was a multi-faceted beast (and the better player) before steroids came into the picture. He wasn't the better player by a lot but people tend to underrate Bonds' early seasons due to his post-steroids video game numbers. The guy accumulated something like 100 WAR before his age 35 season.

 

From what I remember of the situation, Bonds was late to the steroids game. He started juicing later after getting pissed that everybody else was doing it and, in typical Bonds fashion, felt slighted by the lack of attention given to him.

[Willihammer]

 

That wasn't my point, but okay. I merely pointed out that Bonds was a multi-faceted beast (and the better player) before steroids came into the picture. He wasn't the better player by a lot but people tend to underrate Bonds' early seasons due to his post-steroids video game numbers. The guy accumulated something like 100 WAR before his age 35 season.

 

From what I remember of the situation, Bonds was late to the steroids game. He started juicing later after getting pissed that everybody else was doing it and, in typical Bonds fashion, felt slighted by the lack of attention given to him.

Are you saying the same things as monkeypaws then? I can't tell where the disagreement is. I assumed you were hinting at the often repeated argument that Bonds accomplishments pre-PEDs are good enough to warrant induction.

[biggentleben]

 

Be that as it is, when Bonds and Clemens took banned substances, they traded their legacies for the benefit of free agent dollars and years when they should have been in decline. To the tune of 150m+ each. That was their decision. They got their rewards already. They can't have it both ways.

 

But he was never proven to have taken anything by MLB testing. I can assume a lot of things about a lot of people, but for all we know, he was constantly taking things that weren't technically banned the entire time and wouldn't have ever been suspended.

[jimmer]

'But he was never proven to have taken anything by MLB testing.'

 

People don't need proof.  Conjecture is fine.  Smallest hint works too.  One person thinking it and saying/writing it also works. It's the society we now live in. Public opinion is all about guilty until proven innocent. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Are you saying the same things as monkeypaws then? I can't tell where the disagreement is. I assumed you were hinting at the often repeated argument that Bonds accomplishments pre-PEDs are good enough to warrant induction.

I was saying Bonds was better than Clemens before (and after, while we're at it) steroid use.

[Thrylos]

 

The Hall of Fame became a forum for debating the moral worthiness of Pete Rose, and his gambling.

 

That is not the case.  Rose was banned for life from baseball because of his gambling.  Same thing with the black Sox.  Nothing to do with the HoF.  The fact that he cannot be part of the HoF is one of the many consequences of his ban from baseball.

[gunnarthor]

 

'But he was never proven to have taken anything by MLB testing.'

 

People don't need proof.  Conjecture is fine.  Smallest hint works too.  One person thinking it and saying/writing it also works. It's the society we now live in. Public opinion is all about guilty until proven innocent. 

That's a pretty hot take right there - sizzling!