Does Torii Hunter get unfairly crushed for his stance on SSM?

[drjim]

I know this has been discussed before and I have no desire to bring it up in a baseball thread so I put it here.

 

Leaving my own views aside is it fair that he takes so much abuse? Most writers/players (rightfully in my mind) didn't mention it, but some surely did and any comments or twitter replies mentioned it constantly.

 

He has a view that is shared by somewhere around 40-50% of the country and he is a black, rural, Southern, male, no college, Evangelical Christian. He is basically a walking demographic of opposition to SSM.

 

As far as being uncomfortable being a locker room with a gay teammate do people think he is the only one or even in the small minority of professional athletes? Fear and ignorance and lack of exposure certainly lead to all kinds of opinions. He's not unique in that.

 

I hope he takes time to reflect and comes to a different conclusion and provides a safe, welcoming place for gay athletes, but is it fair to just scream bigot? Is it even accurate?

[Mike Sixel]

If that was the only thing he did, imo, he'd catch less.

 

He also was either racist or "culturally insensitive" to Dominicans and other people faking being black (his words).

 

He also thinks it is cool to use his position to impose his beliefs on others, but NOT cool to be asked about that, and is very rude to anyone that does. Can't have it both ways, if you put it out there, you have to be willing to talk about it, not call people pricks (his words) over and over in public.

 

I have no idea what is "too much" or "unfair" in how people feel about him. For me, if it was just a guy being wrong about SSM, that would be very different than actively campaigning for it, then being a total jerk when people ask him about it. Oh, and the whole "racist" thing.

[drjim]

The fake blacks comment was ill advised, I'll grant that.

[Vanimal46]

Plenty to chew on here doctor. Athletes are public figures, and I think it's fair game to criticize his stance on SSM because he's in the public light, and it's a hot button topic in our country. When his stance is that firm against it, he should expect people on the other side of the argument to come out and defend their stance.

 

I don't believe he's the only person in the MLB, any sport really, that would be uncomfortable with a gay teammate in the locker room. Problem is he was very vocal about it, and made known that he was in fact uncomfortable with it. That's also going to drum up criticism from people that don't agree with his views.

 

It's probably not fair to call him a bigot without thinking about his background and how he was raised. However I'm not going to be offended if someone does.

 

I hope Torii evolves with our society and realizes his errors discriminating against the LBGT community. But if he's out of the public light now that he's retired, it won't matter as much to me.

[gunnarthor]

I suspect his views aren't as liberal as mine but I doubt he's cared as much either.  I've invited people to attend the pride parade with me here on TD.  While arguing anonymously about gay rights is simple enough, no one bothered to take me up my offer.  I think, generally, people still don't have a lot of passion for LGBT issues on either side.  

 

My guess it's an issue he doesn't spend a lot of time thinking about.  Hunter did claim his quotes were taken out of context (and the ... in the original article suggests that).  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/31/torii-hunter-detroit-tiger-gay-teammate-uncomfortable_n_2387575.html.  He also did an ad for the GOP governor in the AK election which is brought up a lot but the part that's often ignored is how little SSM was an issue. The democratic nominee openly opposed SSM and voted against LGBT issues while he was in the House. It wasn't an issue there.

 

 

My thoughts are that his views are more or less common place in baseball and people generally bring them up because they have a different ax to grind with Hunter, usually b/c he's been outspoken on racial issues in ways that are tough for whites to appreciate.

 

[biggentleben]

Torii is a public figure who has taken this stand, and as a public figure, when you take an unpopular stance, you should be prepared for the backlash and have answers and explanations that intelligently explain your position, and Torii simply doesn't provide those. I think he's been piled on because of that, but on that note, his ridicule on the issue has really opened discussion on the issue in general and had many seeking out education on their own stance (which has changed some peoples' stances), and I'll take an informed discussion/debate over the alternative any day.

[Mike Sixel]

Who is anonymous about it? I've talked publicly about it a lot with friends, co-workers, online with my real name, etc. Just because I don't go to a parade does not make me some kind of fake. I take real offense at that implication, frankly.

 

And, it isn't just "whites" that didn't like Torii's comments or find them offensive. Just. Wow.

[gunnarthor]

 

The fake blacks comment was ill advised, I'll grant that.

Except he never really said that either.  He was speaking at a round table discussing the decline of African Americans in baseball.  He used the word "impostor" in an 'off-the-cuff' manner to discuss the increasing number of Latinos in baseball.  The reporter ran with the impostor story (instead of reporting on the panel). Hunter did try to clarify - "What I meant was they’re not black players; they’re Latin American players. There is a difference culturally."  I think it's pretty clear that other players didn't take offense at his comments so most probably understood the context.

[biggentleben]

 

I suspect his views aren't as liberal as mine but I doubt he's cared as much either.  I've invited people to attend the pride parade with me here on TD.  While arguing anonymously about gay rights is simple enough, no one bothered to take me up my offer.  I think, generally, people still don't have a lot of passion for LGBT issues on either side.  

 

 

I will say for me that I've attended pride day "festivities" when I was in the cities, but 6 hours is just a long way, and the Sioux Falls one (about the only town near with pride day activities) has a bad history of pushing limits to get a reaction rather than simply hosting a day about pride for who you are.

[Mike Sixel]

And, upbringing is no excuse. Is it ok to think people of a different skin color are somehow stupid, just because you were raised that way? Is it ok to think it is ok to say that muslims are all evil, because you've been told that? Not really, you are still a bigot. You just have a reason for your bigotry other than ignorance.

[drjim]

And, upbringing is no excuse. Is it ok to think people of a different skin color are somehow stupid, just because you were raised that way? Is it ok to think it is ok to say that muslims are all evil, because you've been told that? Not really, you are still a bigot. You just have a reason for your bigotry other than ignorance.

I disagree. I think people are very likely to have opinions that mirror their upbringing. Very hard to shake that.

[gunnarthor]

 

Who is anonymous about it? I've talked publicly about it a lot with friends, co-workers, online with my real name, etc. Just because I don't go to a parade does not make me some kind of fake. I take real offense at that implication, frankly.

And, it isn't just "whites" that didn't like Torii's comments or find them offensive. Just. Wow.

I suppose that was aimed at me?  Did I say "Mike Wants Wins" doesn't give a **** about LGBT issues?  No, I did not.  But I was surprised how many people thought LGBT was a big issue when no one ever talked about on this site (except me) before he got here and the main support LGBT issues recieved here was "Hunter's a jerk."  So, yes, I do think some posters - without naming them - used the LGBT issues b/c of a dislike they had for Hunter that they wouldn't have used on guys like John Smoltz or Matt Birk.  If that's not you, fine.  I never said it was you, Mike.

 

Find me some people that are actually upset about Hunter's comments at all.  He's beloved by fans, players, coaches, managers.  Some anonymous bloggers seem to have a problem with him but I haven't seen any minority writers, for example, attack him.  

[drjim]

Torii is a public figure who has taken this stand, and as a public figure, when you take an unpopular stance, you should be prepared for the backlash and have answers and explanations that intelligently explain your position, and Torii simply doesn't provide those. I think he's been piled on because of that, but on that note, his ridicule on the issue has really opened discussion on the issue in general and had many seeking out education on their own stance (which has changed some peoples' stances), and I'll take an informed discussion/debate over the alternative any day.

Good points both ways.

[Mike Sixel]

I disagree. I think people are very likely to have opinions that mirror their upbringing. Very hard to shake that.

I didn't disagree with that. I said they are still bigots. Just because there is an explanation for your bigotry doesn't make it not bigotry. BTW, I'm not saying Hunter is a bigot, I'm talking in general terms in this part of the thread.

[Vanimal46]

 

And, upbringing is no excuse. Is it ok to think people of a different skin color are somehow stupid, just because you were raised that way? Is it ok to think it is ok to say that muslims are all evil, because you've been told that? Not really, you are still a bigot. You just have a reason for your bigotry other than ignorance.

 

You bring up a good point Mike. However I think right now, in the infancy stages of SSM being legal and more accepting than ever, upbringing is still a valid excuse. I think of SSM right now as what it was like in the south after desegregation. America as a whole wanted all races, ethnicity, etc. to be equal, but there were still late adopters to this issue. Torii and others that have his beliefs are just the late adopters to the latest social issue in our country. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

I suppose that was aimed at me?  Did I say "Mike Wants Wins" doesn't give a **** about LGBT issues?  No, I did not.  But I was surprised how many people thought LGBT was a big issue when no one ever talked about on this site (except me) before he got here and the main support LGBT issues recieved here was "Hunter's a jerk."  So, yes, I do think some posters - without naming them - used the LGBT issues b/c of a dislike they had for Hunter that they wouldn't have used on guys like John Smoltz or Matt Birk.  If that's not you, fine.  I never said it was you, Mike.

 

Find me some people that are actually upset about Hunter's comments at all.  He's beloved by fans, players, coaches, managers.  Some anonymous bloggers seem to have a problem with him but I haven't seen any minority writers, for example, attack him.  

 

You're the only one who cares about LGBT?  There is an entire thread of me taking on some stupid attempt at a logical refutation of gay marriage long before Hunter was here.  Yeesh, get off your high horse.  Making vague rips on people in the manner you are is completely uncalled for.

 

I'm sure it's possible for people to both dislike Hunter on here and be doing things to positively push gay marriage that may not be evident to you.

 

I'm sure it's also possible to just dislike some things that Hunter said.  His approach to what he was trying to say about the latino players was so stupid it deserved to be criticized.  Especially since what I believe was his point (people think there are still black men playing baseball, but they are mistaking darker latino players for black) may be an important one.  He does a disservice to the very point he's making by approaching it like a total idiot.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I hope he takes time to reflect and comes to a different conclusion and provides a safe, welcoming place for gay athletes, but is it fair to just scream bigot? Is it even accurate?

 

I would agree with you jim.  I think that approach to Hunter (and it was done in a post about Daniel Murphy too for that matter) is a problem.  Hunter is entitled to his opinions and you are entitled to criticize him for them.  But criticism can certainly be taken to unfair levels and that line has been crossed more than a few times relative to Hunter.

 

I'm thrilled gay marriage is legal.  I greatly dislike, and try to change anyone who claims it, the opinion that gay marriage is wrong.  But there is a scary trend of trying to destroy people for having opinions we don't share.  We should try to change minds, not destroy reputations.

[Mike Sixel]

I do agree, criticism can be taken too far, and I'm sure some people do that with Mr. Hunter. I am also sure the VAST majority of sports fans just don't care about what the players on their teams do or say, as long as they win. Like I said on the other thread, I'm not sure how I feel about that.

 

So, to answer the OP's question, I do think some people take it too far with Torii. I think the vast majority of people don't take it far enough. On average (the worst measure ever), he's probably treated fairly.

[gunnarthor]

 

You're the only one who cares about LGBT?  There is an entire thread of me taking on some stupid attempt at a logical refutation of gay marriage long before Hunter was here.  Yeesh, get off your high horse.  Making vague rips on people in the manner you are is completely uncalled for.

 

I'm sure it's possible for people to both dislike Hunter on here and be doing things to positively push gay marriage that may not be evident to you.

 

I'm sure it's also possible to just dislike some things that Hunter said.  His approach to what he was trying to say about the latino players was so stupid it deserved to be criticized.  Especially since what I believe was his point (people think there are still black men playing baseball, but they are mistaking darker latino players for black) may be an important one.  He does a disservice to the very point he's making by approaching it like a total idiot.

Well, when I make direct rips, I get banned.

 

I'm all for not liking a guy.  Go for it.  I hate Aaron Rodgers just because he plays for the Packers.  But if you do it because you think he said things that he didn't actually say or you didn't understand the context in which they were said, that's on you.  "Faking being black" which you directly quoted to him, for instance.  You managed to get the both the words wrong and the context all while trying to make him look bad.  And then you doubled down on it and made yourself look worse.

[DaveW]

No, all the criticism to Hunter has been 100% fair, he has doubled down time and time again on his stance and won't keep an open mind at all. He brings it upon himself, and frankly I hope he isn't a part of this org moving forward and takes a commentator role instead.

[TheLeviathan]

What are you talking about, where did I quote Torii Hunter?

[Boom Boom]

The LGBT community's continued struggle for equal rights is a serious topic to me. In my opinion it is the civil rights movement of our generation.

 

I dislike Torii Hunter's (very public) opinions on the issue as much as I would be offended by someone 50 years ago being outspoken about their opposition to interracial marriage or how they would be made uncomfortable to share a locker room with a black teammate.

[gunnarthor]

 

I dislike Torii Hunter's (very public) opinions on the issue as much as I would be offended by someone 50 years ago being outspoken about their opposition to interracial marriage or how they would be made uncomfortable to share a locker room with a black teammate.

What are Hunter's very public comments on the issue?  As far as I know, it's been two incidents - one commercial for Asa Hutchinson in which he read the GOP talking points (which, on SSM aligned with the Democrat in the race as well as, at the time, those of Hillary Clinton and President Obama - although, to be fair to the President, I can't remember when he evolved on that issue).  The other was an article where he said his quotes were taken out of context.  I'm not sure that counts as very public.  He certainly (to my knowledge) didn't write op-ed pieces on the issues like Matt Birk or been outed as a close minded bigot by former players, like some Viking coaches were. 

[TheLeviathan]

So Mike Preifer can't claim "out of context" or "misquoted" but Torii Hunter can?  

 

Good gravy that's a terrible defense for Hunter's comments.  And I think he's generally getting too much crap for it!

[biggentleben]

 

You're the only one who cares about LGBT?  There is an entire thread of me taking on some stupid attempt at a logical refutation of gay marriage long before Hunter was here.  Yeesh, get off your high horse.  Making vague rips on people in the manner you are is completely uncalled for.

 

I'm sure it's possible for people to both dislike Hunter on here and be doing things to positively push gay marriage that may not be evident to you.

 

I'm sure it's also possible to just dislike some things that Hunter said.  His approach to what he was trying to say about the latino players was so stupid it deserved to be criticized.  Especially since what I believe was his point (people think there are still black men playing baseball, but they are mistaking darker latino players for black) may be an important one.  He does a disservice to the very point he's making by approaching it like a total idiot.

 

Shoot, for those of us who came from BYTO, there were many discussions on LGBT issues there.

[gunnarthor]

 

What are you talking about, where did I quote Torii Hunter?

Yeah, I just figured it was Mike responding.  Didn't realize someone else jumped in.

[gunnarthor]

 

So Mike Preifer can't claim "out of context" or "misquoted" but Torii Hunter can?  

 

Good gravy that's a terrible defense for Hunter's comments.  And I think he's generally getting too much crap for it!

http://deadspin.com/i-was-an-nfl-player-until-i-was-fired-by-two-cowards-an-1493208214

 

My feeling is that there is a lot more to suggest that Preifer's views are his than there are of Hunter's.  You may differ. 

[gunnarthor]

 

 

Shoot, for those of us who came from BYTO, there were many discussions on LGBT issues there.

I'm sure they were just as enlightening as this one.

[biggentleben]

 

I'm sure they were just as enlightening as this one.

 

I will be honest that my views on SSM morphed a lot due to the conversations on BYTO. My personal faith still holds me to my beliefs on many things, but there was excellent discussion regarding having faith and still being able to love who you love. There are many who opened their minds in those discussions, and I won't single anyone out at all, but there are plenty on this board now whose expressed views on BYTO have morphed over the years, and they had morphed before even coming to this site due to the extended discussions that frequently happened on the "tough" topics on that site. Until recently, it was my biggest thing I missed in the transition to Twins Daily as I enjoyed having an intellectual discussion on life topics. It seems like those topics have become more frequent discussion points in the last 6 months to a year, and I appreciate having a well-moderated, issue-focused discussion with anyone, regardless of how opposite of my views their views may be.

[Boom Boom]

What are Hunter's very public comments on the issue? As far as I know, it's been two incidents - one commercial for Asa Hutchinson in which he read the GOP talking points (which, on SSM aligned with the Democrat in the race as well as, at the time, those of Hillary Clinton and President Obama - although, to be fair to the President, I can't remember when he evolved on that issue). The other was an article where he said his quotes were taken out of context. I'm not sure that counts as very public. He certainly (to my knowledge) didn't write op-ed pieces on the issues like Matt Birk or been outed as a close minded bigot by former players, like some Viking coaches were.

I would say that voicing the opinion in a TV commercial is very public. And I've read his comments in the article and I don't believe he was taken out of context.

 

This isn't a Republican vs. Democrat thing, either. It doesn't surprise me that an Arkansas Democrat would oppose gay marriage. I wouldn't have voted for either of them, and I'm thankful that I don't live in Arkansas.

 

And if you want to start a thread about Matt Birk or Mike Priefer or Don Knotts and their views, go right ahead - this one was ostensibly about Torii Hunter.