Arcia optioned to Rochester

[amjgt]

 

Even if he's only on optional assignment for 10 days, this could prevent him from reaching "Super 2" arbitration status the coming winter.  So it's a fairly significant move, in that it gives us another "free" season to evaluate him (or offers such a season to a potential trade partner).

Are you saying this because you know that we are close? Or are you just saying "theoretically it could prevent Super 2 from kicking in?"

 

Super 2 doesn't save seasons of control, only money, right?

[Mike Sixel]

There is zero chance Arcia is Super 2 money dude in any way that matters to this team.

 

It's about something else, like loving Escobar for some reason, or not liking something in Arcia's approach. Frankly, it is the sum of the decisions I have an issue with, not each individual one.

 

There isn't room for this many DH/1B/OF types, so pick one and promote him, and let the others "develop", but please stop DHing (and 1Bing) guys that can't put up an OPS over 600 or 700.

[gocgo]

 

While money always play a part I don't think it was the primary reason. I think the Twins had every intention of him doing a typical rehab and then coming back up, but he clearly hasn't been doing much of anything in Rochester, so this was the way of showing the seriousness they are taking the situation and that he actually needs to do something to get back up. Burning his last option is a cost to the Twins as well.

Options are based on years.  There isn't a set number of options on a player.  Here's the explanation from Wikepedia:

 

A common misconception, based on the phrase, "out of options," is that a player may only be moved between the major and minor leagues a restricted number of times. On the contrary, a player has a finite number of option years in which he may be moved between the major and minor leagues an unlimited number of times. If a player is on the 40-man roster but not on the active major league roster, he is said to be on optional assignment—his organization may freely move him between the major league club and the minor league club. The rules for this are as follows. (In all cases, an assignment of a player on a major-league disabled list to the minors while on a rehabilitation assignment does not count as time spent in the minors.)

Once a player has been placed on a team's 40-man roster, a team has 3 option years on that player.
A player is considered to have used one of those three option years when he spends at least 20 days in the minors in any of those 3 seasons.
A team may have a fourth option year on a player with less than five full seasons of professional experience, provided that both conditions below are met.
A player has not spent at least 90 days on an active professional roster in a season. Minor leagues that play below Class A Advanced have seasons that are shorter than 90 days, and as such, any player who spends a full season in a rookie or Class A (short-season) league will receive a fourth option year.
A player has not spent at least 60 days on an active professional roster AND then at least 30 days on a disabled list in a season. Only after 60 days have been spent on an active professional roster does time spent on the disabled list count towards the 90-day threshold. As with the prior example, this cannot occur with players who spend a full season in a rookie or Class A (short season) league.

[drjim]

Yes, I know that is how options work. He hadn't been optioned yet this year, so this move burns his last option year, meaning that it can't be used in future seasons.

 

They had the choice to keep him down on the rehab assignment and not burn the option year yet but they chose to do it differently.

[drjim]

 

I'm definitely not as knowledgeable on options as many people on here. If the Twins didn't use one of Arcia's options this year, could they use it next year (not that if he was with the major league team all this year that they would have any reason to send him down next year)? If so, when do "left over" options expire? I'm guessing we never used all of Joe Mauer's options, but I'm pretty sure we couldn't option him to AAA at this point.

 

Yes, they could use the option year next year, or even the year after that.

 

Options don't "expire" but there is a certain service time threshold (I think it is just short of 5 years) where a player can't be optioned without his permission, or else he has to be placed on waivers and thus subject to being claimed by another team.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Molitor was a DH but not really a "DH type".  He didn't move to primary DH/1B until age 34.

 

Right, but then he was that for 8 seasons!  

[stringer bell]

Escobar just missed Super 2 this year with 2 years 128 days.  Arcia was at one year 132 days, so it would be very close as to whether he would qualify for Super 2 if he played the whole year.  Oswaldo will be almost certain to miss the Super 2 threshold if he is optioned for as few as 15 days.  Saving money by keeping a player from reaching Super 2 changes pay throughout the control years, I think.  I'm pretty sure service time figures into many roster decisions, but the Twins have other factors which would play into this decision. 

[spinowner]

Regarding rehabbing vs being optioned: The player is still on the DL while rehabbing, and I believe there is a limit on rehab time, and I assume Arcia reached the limit, which is why he was optioned now as opposed to doing it sooner.

[diehardtwinsfan]

For some reason I thought the Twins were awarded an extra option on Arcia this offseason...  My memory could be hazy there.  I don't have a problem with it. He was a big candidate to break out, but he's regressed.  He's not doing better in AAA either.  Make him earn it.  I'd also make it real clear that no matter how well he's hitting, his defense needs to improve too if he wants to be called back up this year. 

[drjim]

 

For some reason I thought the Twins were awarded an extra option on Arcia this offseason...  My memory could be hazy there.  I don't have a problem with it. He was a big candidate to break out, but he's regressed.  He's not doing better in AAA either.  Make him earn it.  I'd also make it real clear that no matter how well he's hitting, his defense needs to improve too if he wants to be called back up this year. 

 

If they got an extra option, makes the cost for the Twins much lower and the super 2 argument much more likely as it relates to optioning Arcia, not necessarily keeping him down at the moment. I don't think he deserves to be in the majors, this planet or any other.

[amjgt]

 

Regarding rehabbing vs being optioned: The player is still on the DL while rehabbing, and I believe there is a limit on rehab time, and I assume Arcia reached the limit, which is why he was optioned now as opposed to doing it sooner.

 

The limit is 20 days, which he was about 2 weeks short of.

 

(30 for pitchers)

[stringer bell]

They did get an extra option for Arcia, allowing this transaction to go forth this year.  I found it interesting that they did not go to the maximum number of days for his rehab, so I think the Super 2 has something to do with that decision.

[jokin]

 

They did get an extra option for Arcia, allowing this transaction to go forth this year.  I found it interesting that they did not go to the maximum number of days for his rehab, so I think the Super 2 has something to do with that decision.

 

And the longer Vargas stays down, there is created ever-more temptation to hold him down on the farm for the full 2+ months that keep him from Super 2 status, as well.

[drjim]

 

And the longer Vargas stays down, there is created ever-more temptation to hold him down on the farm for the full 2+ months that keep him from Super 2 status, as well.

 

It would take about 5 months in the minors for super 2 considerations, 2 months and 10 days for the extra year of control. Possible but unlikely if he is rakes for an extended time.

[Madre Dos]

YEAH!  Rosario gets to stay up!  I like Oswaldo too, he knew his way around my refrigerator when he played in Elizabethton.  I hope Josmil or Kennys come back up.

[jokin]

 

It would take about 5 months in the minors for super 2 considerations, 2 months and 10 days for the extra year of control. Possible but unlikely if he is rakes for an extended time.

Arcia was 1.132 in service time going into this year, the Twins demotion is shaving off perhaps a couple more weeks of service time and would safely put him well below the estimated Super 2 threshold for this year.  

 

By my count- and if I understand the Super 2 rules correctly, Vargas has around 100 total days of MLB service, with 0.172 days constituting a full year.  It seems like he'd need to play full-time all next year, and the year after, plus about 40-45 more days this year to safely breach the Super 2 threshold in 2017 (based on this year, in which  the threshold is estimated to be 2.140).  That would mean the Twins would have to decide if it's worth keeping him down until late August- or around 3 full months- as part of a strategy to avoid the threshold (and assuming he has no more demotions in 2016 and 17).    If he continues raking at AAA, Vargas definitely should be back a  whole lot sooner than that, but less likely so if the new-found need for a 13-man pitching staff stays in effect. Just not enough roster spots for the two sluggers, and Arcia having seniority, could possibly be the first one on-call. 

[stringer bell]

The"need" for 13 pitchers isn't a need beyond the expected bullpen game on Saturday. It is the same old thing of having borderline or worse pitchers who can't be optioned (Stauffer & Duensing) and the Twins' reluctance to part with these guys. FWIW, each Arcia, Vargas and Pinto were o-fer today.

[drjim]

 

Arcia was 1.132 in service time going into this year, the Twins demotion is shaving off perhaps a couple more weeks of service time and would safely put him well below the estimated Super 2 threshold for this year.  

 

By my count- and if I understand the Super 2 rules correctly, Vargas has around 100 total days of MLB service, with 0.172 days constituting a full year.  It seems like he'd need to play full-time all next year, and the year after, plus about 40-45 more days this year to safely breach the Super 2 threshold in 2017 (based on this year, in which  the threshold is estimated to be 2.140).  That would mean the Twins would have to decide if it's worth keeping him down until late August- or around 3 full months- as part of a strategy to avoid the threshold (and assuming he has no more demotions in 2016 and 17).    If he continues raking at AAA, Vargas definitely should be back a  whole lot sooner than that, but less likely so if the new-found need for a 13-man pitching staff stays in effect. Just not enough roster spots for the two sluggers, and Arcia having seniority, could possibly be the first one on-call. 

 

That threshold of 140 seems a little high in my opinion. Usually need around 100, if not fewer, to avoid super 2. Too late for Vargas if he plays full time the next two years. And if he doesn't roster full time, then no reason the team should even care.

[Otto von Ballpark]

That threshold of 140 seems a little high in my opinion. Usually need around 100, if not fewer, to avoid super 2. Too late for Vargas if he plays full time the next two years. And if he doesn't roster full time, then no reason the team should even care.

Here is a cite on 140 days for 2015:

 

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2015/04/projected-super-two-cutoff-5.html

 

That said, I doubt they are concerned with Vargas' service time yet.

 

But I think it was a strong factor in the Arcia move -- not in terms of cost savings, but guaranteeing that 2016 is basically another free evaluative season for us or a potential trade partner. ( And reducing Arcia's leverage should he look deserving of a multi year contract soon. )

[drjim]

 

Here is a cite on 140 days for 2015:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2015/04/projected-super-two-cutoff-5.html

That said, I doubt they are concerned with Vargas' service time yet.

But I think it was a strong factor in the Arcia move -- not in terms of cost savings, but guaranteeing that 2016 is basically another free evaluative season for us or a potential trade partner. ( And reducing Arcia's leverage should he look deserving of a multi year contract soon. )

 

Thanks for the link, teams really are manipulating that date.

 

I agree on the rest, though long term deal for Arcia seems a long way away. Hopefully he gets his stuff together, Twins could surely use him.

[Mike Sixel]

If they are worried about team control with a guy that was a decent, but not even good prospect, they are worried about the wrong things.

[Craig Arko]

 

If they are worried about team control with a guy that was a decent, but not even good prospect, they are worried about the wrong things.

As far as I can tell, most of the worrying seems to be at TD. Which should not change your conclusion one bit.

[stringer bell]

Just to summarize, the option of Arcia will almost certainly prevent him from being arb-eligible (Super 2) at the conclusion of this season. Vargas had two months service last year and so would not be eligible for arbitration at the conclusion of 2017. His option could extend team control for another year, but only if he stays in AAA for over two months. Doubtful that was much of a consideration.

[drjim]

 

Just to summarize, the option of Arcia will almost certainly prevent him from being arb-eligible (Super 2) at the conclusion of this season. Vargas had two months service last year and so would not be eligible for arbitration until the conclusion of 2017. His option could extend team control for another year, but only if he stays in AAA for over two months. Doubtful that was much of a consideration.

 

I also think that they didn't plan on optioning Arcia until he decided to show up at AAA and not hit.

[Craig Arko]

I don't know if this will show up, but Parker posted this clip of Arcia's reaction to his second strikeout yesterday.

 

https://vine.co/v/eMigWtFuVj6

 

I don't think he's ready yet.

[jokin]

 

As far as I can tell, most of the worrying seems to be at TD. Which should not change your conclusion one bit.

 

I also think that they didn't plan on optioning Arcia until he decided to show up at AAA and not hit.

 

Clubs pay millions of dollars to lawyers to negotiate creative labor deals with unions and agents in the hopes of saving them 10s of millions of dollars by creating labor-related loopholes and contingency plans for their most essential and perishable of commodities, the players.  

 

The Twins have made a decision that both hitters can help the team short-term, by NOT being on the 2015 active roster., presumably with the hope that a few days or weeks from now they will be even more help ON the 2015 roster.  But, even if they don't plan on keeping a player long-term, his value in trade is based on both potential perceived production and acquisition costs.  It would seem, for mid-market teams especially, decisions around the cost-controlled years of each player's career are carefully weighed, considered and scrutinized with the intention to derive and obtain maximum benefit at minimum cost.  Arcia struggling in the short-term, with an added trip to the DL, seemingly tipped the scales and made the option decision an easy one.  The Vargas situation is less obvious, and more curious, but each day at AAA makes the decision to have him stay at AAA a little longer more of a potential outcome.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Arcia has been downright bad in the majors this year.  His defense has been bad since he called up and his bat isn't doing well enough to make up for it.  He's been bad in AAA too.  Certainly there's some super 2 benefits that the team has gained here, but I don't think we are having this conversation had Arcia been hitting the way we expected him to. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I also think that they didn't plan on optioning Arcia until he decided to show up at AAA and not hit.

I don't know about that.  Last year, they gave him the full 20 days rehab at Rochester, then optioned him for an extra 10 days , thus giving him 30 days at AAA but retaining another option to use on him in 2015 if they so desired.

 

This year, they only gave him a week of rehab, then optioned him so that his remaining AAA time would put him further away from arbitration eligibility.

 

It looks like they had a plan to manipulate his service time if he hadn't yet established a breakout performance level.

[drjim]

 

I don't know about that.  Last year, they gave him the full 20 days rehab at Rochester, then optioned him for an extra 10 days , thus giving him 30 days at AAA but retaining another option to use on him in 2015 if they so desired.

 

This year, they only gave him a week of rehab, then optioned him so that his remaining AAA time would put him further away from arbitration eligibility.

 

It looks like they had a plan to manipulate his service time if he hadn't yet established a breakout performance level.

 

I agree with this. But I would contend if he went down and hit they wouldn't have optioned him.

 

I imagine that overall with the nagging injuries and less than stellar results they are really down on him.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I agree with this. But I would contend if he went down and hit they wouldn't have optioned him.

 

I imagine that overall with the nagging injuries and less than stellar results they are really down on him.

 

I think this is probably the most right assessment of the situation.