Article: Alex Meyer's Wild Ride

[tobi0040]

 

Took the words out of my mouth. I had shoulder issues when I pitched in high school and the first thing I did when it started was drop the arm slot. I have to think that if Meyer is doing that, his shoulder is biting him.

Which kinda makes you wonder why they wouldn't just stick him in the pen, IMO.

 

Way too talented to give up on as a starter.  I would rather see him tweak his mechanics in AAA in starts rather than stick him in the pen. 

[jokin]

 

 

 

Now, Meyer can't walk two hitters per inning like he did yesterday.  He has to improve his command.  But it is interesting to note, Meyer only allowed one run and had 3 K's in those two innings (in addition to one weak bloop hit that had a chance of being caught).  Nobody hit him hard.  When he was in a jam he reached back and overpowered guys, or dropped that really, really nice slider in there. 

 

He may get himself into trouble more often, but if nobody is squaring him up and he is striking out hitters.....he should be given a leash.  A BB/9 in the mid 4's or even 5 in the big's should not keep this kid in AAA.  In his first two years, Randy had a BB/9 of 5.4, then 4.8 the next year.  But he had k rates in the 7-8 range, HR rates at .7-.8, and hit rates of 8.1-8.2.  We need to look at more than one stat with him.

 

 

Yesterday's performance was reminiscent of the game I saw him pitch last August. Weak contact. Occasional fits of inexplicable wildness.  The slider was devastating that day, too.  But the velocity on the FB was high 90s, not mid-90s.  And the change was, and still is, a work in progress.  And like yesterday, when he bears down after struggling, he strikes out 3 guys in a row, and comes back with a very efficient inning.

 

You needed to exposit further on Johnson, in The Big Unit's third and fourth full seasons, while his K/9 jumped from the 7s to the 10s, his BB/9 numbers also jumped to a horrific 6.8 and 6.2!  Long leash by the Ms, indeed. By contrast, in Twinsland, there were complaints and grumbles when Meyer's BB/9 upticked from 3.7 to 4.4.

 

For 2014 and Meyer the Twins were all about the innings pitched and health.  Hopefully, both the Twins and Meyer have set the bar higher in 2015.

[jimmer]

 

By contrast, in Twinsland, there were complaints and grumbles when Meyer's BB/9 upticked from 3.7 to 4.4.

 

 

Twins fans have been brainwashed by the announcers and the team about how evil the walk is, so people freak out about that. Announcers preach about how often the 1st batter of an inning scores if he gets walked, but we don't seem to get the same kind of preaching when we're talking first batter get on base by a single.  Same result though, first batter is on base.  I guess it's less of an issue since the batter earned his trip on the bases, but batters also have a hand in working a count to get a walk.  It's not just the pitchers fault, it's often the work of the batter.

 

Team takes pride in their usually low walk rates while avoiding the discussion about BAA. :-)

Edited March 20, 2015 by jimmer

[Seth Stohs]

The Twins just announced that Alex Meyer has been optioned to Rochester.

[jimmer]

 

The Twins just announced that Alex Meyer has been optioned to Rochester.

No surprise there, even before his last outing.

Edited March 20, 2015 by jimmer

[Willihammer]

Way too talented to give up on as a starter.  I would rather see him tweak his mechanics in AAA in starts rather than stick him in the pen.

Then they have to embrace a lower arm slot, IMO, and find a way to command from there. Its exactly as errichi said. Throwing any higher than 3/4 is just going to kill his shoulder.

[h2oface]

 

“Alex is a very routine guy as far as rotation and what his program has been,” Molitor said. “And for a young kid, you work him in as a starter in camp and all of a sudden you go, ‘OK, let’s give him a couple innings out of the ‘pen here and then throw him into a major league game.’ It’s hard to see how that could happen in the short term. It might be something that could work its way.”

Except......... Meyer has been given no starts in spring training. Not a one. He has been used in relief for all his innings.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Agree, tweaking the mechanics can be tricky business. Only the pitcher knows what's comfortable and there are a lot of different ways to sling a baseball.

[jimmer]

 

Except......... Meyer has been given no starts in spring training. Not a one. He has been used in relief for all his innings.

GASP!  Say Whaaaat? :-)-Stewie

 

Edited March 20, 2015 by jimmer

[Parker Hageman]

I'm not sure I understand why a 3/4 slot puts more strain on your arm as that's completely opposite to my experience with throwing.

 

 

No, the arm slot is not an injury concern. Randy Johnson had a 3/4 arm slot.

 

http://www.trbimg.com/img-54ac4047/turbine/la-sp-sn-baseball-hall-of-fame-20150106

 

 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Except......... Meyer has been given no starts in spring training. Not a one. He has been used in relief for all his innings.

To be fair, spring training relief appearances are often "starts" with all of the accompanying preparations, just pushed back 40 minutes or however long it takes to play the first couple innings.

 

Still, the main starting candidates do generally get the official starts in spring, so I think it is safe to conclude that Meyer and May were never on equal footing in the rotation derby.

[VandyTwinsFan]

 

Four BB's, all four pitch walks in two innings....

 

Batter 1. Hit on first pitch
Batter 2. Four pitch walk
Batter 3. Four pitch walk
Batter 4. Sac on first pitch (run scored)
Batter 5. Four pitch walk
Batter 6. K on three pitches (all swinging)

Batter 7. K on three pitches (all swinging)

 

Second inning

 

Batter 1.  K on three pitches

Batter 2. Grounder to 2B on first pitch

Batter 3. Four pitch walk

Batter 4. Guy thrown out at 2B on steal attempt....

 

 

 

I distinctly remember him getting to a full count before striking out a batter for out #2 in his first inning. I went back and watched the archive just to see his wildness.

 

I think you might be using the gameday play-by-play as a reference for your pitch results. In spring training, it won't give correct pitch results. If it's a walk, it calls all the pitches balls. If it's a strikeout, all the pitches were strikes. 

 

Just off of memory, I think his first walk was 4-0, then 4-1, then 3-3 K, then I forget.

[tobi0040]

 

I distinctly remember him getting to a full count before striking out a batter for out #2 in his first inning. I went back and watched the archive just to see his wildness.

 

I think you might be using the gameday play-by-play as a reference for your pitch results. In spring training, it won't give correct pitch results. If it's a walk, it calls all the pitches balls. If it's a strikeout, all the pitches were strikes. 

 

Just off of memory, I think his first walk was 4-0, then 4-1, then 3-3 K, then I forget.

 

That was exactly what I was using.  Good call.  All his balls were listed as 4 pitch walks.  Thank you for the heads up.

 

 

[Dantes929]

 

Twins fans have been brainwashed by the announcers and the team about how evil the walk is, so people freak out about that. Announcers preach about how often the 1st batter of an inning scores if he gets walked, but we don't seem to get the same kind of preaching when we're talking first batter get on base by a single.  Same result though, first batter is on base.  I guess it's less of an issue since the batter earned his trip on the bases, but batters also have a hand in working a count to get a walk.  It's not just the pitchers fault, it's often the work of the batter.

 

Team takes pride in their usually low walk rates while avoiding the discussion about BAA. :-)

I love getting walks and hate giving them up but it is all part of the give and take of baseball.   Alex Meyer can walk a lot more guys than can Tommy Milone just like Adam Dunn can strike out more and have a lower batting average because he hits for power and walks a lot.   Just like Revere can get by with a weak arm but he better keep his speed in getting to balls to make up for it.    I have no problem with Meyer going down at this point but not because of one ST game.   Far as I am concerned he can have one or two of those clunkers for every 5 games pitched as long as those other 3 or 4 are gems.         

[Brock Beauchamp]

It fascinates me to see sabr people laud the walk on offense and dismiss it on defense while dismissing the strikeout on offense and lauding it on defense.

 

They're opposite sides of the same events. If they matter on one side, they also matter on the other.

 

Anyway, random tangent. Carry on, everyone.

[Linus]

 

It fascinates me to see sabr people laud the walk on offense and dismiss it on defense while dismissing the strikeout on offense and lauding it on defense.

They're opposite sides of the same events. If they matter on one side, they also matter on the other.

This, a hundred times.  I posted this a while back as its own thread but it never gained traction.  I think cutting down strikeouts will be in vogue again soon.

[jimmer]

 

It fascinates me to see sabr people laud the walk on offense and dismiss it on defense while dismissing the strikeout on offense and lauding it on defense.

They're opposite sides of the same events. If they matter on one side, they also matter on the other.

Anyway, random tangent. Carry on, everyone.

Do you see a lot of SABR people dismiss the strikeout on offense? Most I've talked to don't like Ks. Striking out hurts the OBP.  But if a guy grounds out to 3B as opposed to striking out, his OBP is still hurt the same. I think most SABR people just don't scream 'oh the strikeout is horrible' like they used to.

 

Most would agree that, especially with runners on, a ball in play out will often be at least a little helpful by moving runners over (if it's an out placed in the right spot). It could also lead to a double play.  

 

And I also don't see a lot of people dismissing the walk on defense.  It's still allowing a guy on base, which a defense shouldn't want to do. My point is that an inning leadoff walk allowed on defense isn't any worse than an inning leadoff single (or a double) allowed on defense.

 

I'd also rather walk a good player on a 3-0 count with a man on 2nd than groove a ball in the strike zone to get pounded just to avoid walking a guy. 

 

Allowing a walk isn't more damaging than allowing a hit when preventing runs scored.

 

A walk on offense isn't better than a single or double either, but it's still getting on base (as opposed to creating one of 27 outs).  It creates opportunities for scoring by having another runner on and extending the inning.  So while a single or better would be better, it's still getting on base.  Getting on base is important.

Edited March 21, 2015 by jimmer

[Otto von Ballpark]

It fascinates me to see sabr people laud the walk on offense and dismiss it on defense while dismissing the strikeout on offense and lauding it on defense.

 

They're opposite sides of the same events. If they matter on one side, they also matter on the other.

 

Anyway, random tangent. Carry on, everyone.

OBP is more important than K rate on offense.

 

OBP against is more important than BB rate for pitchers. If two pitchers have similar OBP against, K rate is a better tiebreaker than BB rate.

 

Oh, those nutty "sabr people"!

[Brock Beauchamp]

Uh... I include myself on the side of those "sabr people".

 

It was a simple observation made while slightly intoxicated, nothing more.

[jimmer]

 

Uh... I include myself on the side of those "sabr people".

It was a simple observation made while slightly intoxicated, nothing more.

I wish I was slightly intoxicated :-)  Instead I'm on call. I rarely drink nowadays, but it's been an exceptionally rough week.

Edited March 21, 2015 by jimmer

[Brock Beauchamp]

I rarely drink nowadays, but it's been an exceptionally rough week.

Same here. A side effect of working obscene hours every week and being married to a lawyer who works even more obscene hours.

[Kwak]

 

Twins fans have been brainwashed by the announcers and the team about how evil the walk is, so people freak out about that. Announcers preach about how often the 1st batter of an inning scores if he gets walked, but we don't seem to get the same kind of preaching when we're talking first batter get on base by a single.  Same result though, first batter is on base.  I guess it's less of an issue since the batter earned his trip on the bases, but batters also have a hand in working a count to get a walk.  It's not just the pitchers fault, it's often the work of the batter.

 

Team takes pride in their usually low walk rates while avoiding the discussion about BAA. :-)

Exactly!  The game is decided by runs not walks. MLB succeeded for many years without getting freaked-out by pitch count. Despite yielding the fewest walks per season (frequently), theTwins staff have generally been at or near the bottom in rankings. I think the Twins need to adopt "conventional" thinking about pitching. The use of free-agents to build a staff is a start, but they need to continue to "go mainstream" and forget trying to "outsmart" the rest of baseball.

[Dantes929]

 

Exactly!  The game is decided by runs not walks. MLB succeeded for many years without getting freaked-out by pitch count. Despite yielding the fewest walks per season (frequently), theTwins staff have generally been at or near the bottom in rankings. I think the Twins need to adopt "conventional" thinking about pitching. The use of free-agents to build a staff is a start, but they need to continue to "go mainstream" and forget trying to "outsmart" the rest of baseball.

I will take a little issue here and again its a matter of degree.    I defended the Twins back in the day when they had few strikeouts because they also had the fewest walks by a margin of 100 over the next best team in that category.   Because they had such control they could use it to their advantage.    The problem with pitching to contact the last several years is that they have done it so poorly.   The fact that they are last in strikeouts is now combined with  walk rates that might be better than average but not excellent and certainly not elite.   This shows me they have not had the same control which is probably a result of talent having little to do with velocity.   Its not just control in avoiding strikeouts but control within the strike zone.  Radke, Slowey, and Pavano simply hit their spots better than Walters, DeVries and Hendriks because they were better pitchers..    Again, as a team San Fran has averaged a modest middle of the pack 90.8 fastball and throw it less often than anyone.   I don't think that is conventional thinking.

[jimmer]

 

I will take a little issue here and again its a matter of degree.    I defended the Twins back in the day when they had few strikeouts because they also had the fewest walks by a margin of 100 over the next best team in that category.   Because they had such control they could use it to their advantage.    The problem with pitching to contact the last several years is that they have done it so poorly.   The fact that they are last in strikeouts is now combined with  walk rates that might be better than average but not excellent and certainly not elite.   This shows me they have not had the same control which is probably a result of talent having little to do with velocity.   Its not just control in avoiding strikeouts but control within the strike zone.  Radke, Slowey, and Pavano simply hit their spots better than Walters, DeVries and Hendriks because they were better pitchers..    Again, as a team San Fran has averaged a modest middle of the pack 90.8 fastball and throw it less often than anyone.   I don't think that is conventional thinking.

It's also easier to accept the pitch to contact strategy when you have good defenders behind you.

[TheLeviathan]

The Twins just announced that Alex Meyer has been optioned to Rochester.

I really hope this isn't for long. I'm amazed at what this kid has done in the minors only to hear griping from the club on how he isn't ready. While meanwhile we are about to go on year 3 of our CF circus.

 

Just boggles my mind.

Edited March 22, 2015 by TheLeviathan