Hunter needling Hicks

[gunnarthor]

The fight is debateable, but do you think the press conference, throwing balls onto the field, and throwing balls at pitchers is professional? speculation?

Actually, I think Beredino was the unprofessional one.  He brought up a subject that had no bearing - Hunter's support for a candidate in AK - knowing very well that it would disrupt the press conference.  

 

Sure, he threw a pitch back at Danys Baez but it happened 13 years ago.  Seems like a strange thing to keep coming back to.  Interestingly, Baez actually came into the Twins dugout during the game to apologize to Hunter.  Does it outweigh how he led the Angels after Adenhart's death, for example?

 

At the end of the day, a lot of the anti-Hunter things seem pretty off color to me.  What point are we trying to make?  Is he "unprofessional" because of this?  In what sense?  Have any of his actions lowered his reputation in the clubhouse?  I don't think so.  

[jimmer]

anyway, I'm done with that.  

 

I'll stick with my point.  I doubt the players on this team don't care about losing.

[TheLeviathan]

People are welcome to like a player for any number of reasons, including unprofessional behaviors, but I'm not sure why we have to characterize juvenile, unprofessional behavior as something else.  The logic that "clubhouse" rules should be exempt from those of normal society are a dangerous slippery slope.

 

Lots of what is acceptable in the "clubhouse" or the "lockerroom" or whatever else to make you one of the boys is absolutely unprofessional and unacceptable conduct.  I wouldn't hide behind that with any sense of real merit.

 

Torii has many great traits, including his passion and attitude, but he's got plenty to criticize too. 

[jimmer]

Actually, I think Beredino was the unprofessional one.  He brought up a subject that had no bearing - Hunter's support for a candidate in AK - knowing very well that it would disrupt the press conference.  

 

Sure, he threw a pitch back at Danys Baez but it happened 13 years ago.  Seems like a strange thing to keep coming back to.  Interestingly, Baez actually came into the Twins dugout during the game to apologize to Hunter.  Does it outweigh how he led the Angels after Adenhart's death, for example?

 

At the end of the day, a lot of the anti-Hunter things seem pretty off color to me.  What point are we trying to make?  Is he "unprofessional" because of this?  In what sense?  Have any of his actions lowered his reputation in the clubhouse?  I don't think so.  

The reporter asked if his views, and especially the commercial, affected his free agency market. Since PR considerations are a real thing in a job dependent on the public.  That is a legitimate baseball question considering he just signed a free agent contract.  For example, I doubt the Giants go after him after that, or the Mariners and such.   So it affects the possible teams he could go to, which affects his FA market.

[tobi0040]

Actually, I think Beredino was the unprofessional one. He brought up a subject that had no bearing - Hunter's support for a candidate in AK - knowing very well that it would disrupt the press conference.

 

Sure, he threw a pitch back at Danys Baez but it happened 13 years ago. Seems like a strange thing to keep coming back to. Interestingly, Baez actually came into the Twins dugout during the game to apologize to Hunter. Does it outweigh how he led the Angels after Adenhart's death, for example?

 

At the end of the day, a lot of the anti-Hunter things seem pretty off color to me. What point are we trying to make? Is he "unprofessional" because of this? In what sense? Have any of his actions lowered his reputation in the clubhouse? I don't think so.

I think they were both unprofessional. But a 39 year old vet that is supposed to teach the 20 year olds how to act like a professional, especially since that was clearly one of the things that attracted us to Torii....should not have stooped down to his level. The Buxton's of the world could say, okay if I am asked a question that is out of line I can lose my cool and call the reporter a prick multiple times. The team loves guys that do that.

 

Like Thrylos just posted, I am not trying to prove anything other than over his career, Torii has not always acted like the guy the media, the Twins, and some on here either remember him as or want him to be on this team. I think it is fair to call that out as a disconnect with this all.

 

The irritating part regarding this thread, to me was the assertion that stating Torii has acted unproffesional at times was just so off base one didn't even know how to respond.  I don't think some of these assertions are incorrect, let alone ridiculous.

[gunnarthor]

I have real issues with anyone who is actively for suppressing the rights of an entire class of people. What if a player today actively endorsed a candidate because that candidate wanted to make sure people could only marry people with the same skin color because their southern views said that's the way it should be?

 

And you know, not too long ago, there were quite a white players who were uncomfortable with having black players on baseball teams.  I imagine Hunter would have flipped out about that, even if these players were had issues because of their 'southern Christian' views. He would have hated being discriminated against, but he's okay if other groups are.

This is a huge stretch.  And frankly, if you really feel that way, you should probably not support baseball b/c his views are not that out of line.  People who I trust have met with Mauer and they say that he is the same on same-sex marriage.  I marched in the pride parade when Kluwe was the MC of it (I posted invites on Twins Daily but I don't think a lot of people showed up) and we tried to get other local sports personalities involved. None did.

[gunnarthor]

People are welcome to like a player for any number of reasons, including unprofessional behaviors, but I'm not sure why we have to characterize juvenile, unprofessional behavior as something else.  The logic that "clubhouse" rules should be exempt from those of normal society are a dangerous slippery slope.

 

Lots of what is acceptable in the "clubhouse" or the "lockerroom" or whatever else to make you one of the boys is absolutely unprofessional and unacceptable conduct.  I wouldn't hide behind that with any sense of real merit.

 

Again, we have this in a different thread and the moderators keep banning us because of it so maybe it should stay there.  But the logical answer is that clubhouse behavior - in every sport - is treated differently. It's not even a debate.  Maybe it shouldn't be so, maybe the Vikings and Twins and Gophers should be as professional as a legal office but that isn't the reality.  And trying to argue that actions in one setting is unprofessional b/c it would be unprofessional in a different setting doesn't make sense.  I just don't see the point of basically saying "he couldn't get away with that elsewhere."  It is what it is.  It's probably not right but it's not really worth arguing it doesn't exist.  I mean, look at how society treats these guys.  Phillip Nelson got drunk and nearly kills a guy and gets a three month plea deal and a 1K fine?  That's the insane world we live in. 

[TheLeviathan]

Again, we have this in a different thread and the moderators keep banning us because of it so maybe it should stay there.  But the logical answer is that clubhouse behavior - in every sport - is treated differently. It's not even a debate.  Maybe it shouldn't be so, maybe the Vikings and Twins and Gophers should be as professional as a legal office but that isn't the reality.  And trying to argue that actions in one setting is unprofessional b/c it would be unprofessional in a different setting doesn't make sense.  I just don't see the point of basically saying "he couldn't get away with that elsewhere."  It is what it is.  It's probably not right but it's not really worth arguing it doesn't exist.  I mean, look at how society treats these guys.  Phillip Nelson got drunk and nearly kills a guy and gets a three month plea deal and a 1K fine?  That's the insane world we live in. 

 

Just because something is, doesn't mean it ought to be.  

 

Just because some behaviors are liked by teammates doesn't mean it was professional conduct.  Lots of unprofessional guys have been popular, it just means they are popular.  It speaks to nothing about their professionalism.  Earlier I think you were conflating the two and that is part of the disconnect.

[tobi0040]

Just because something is, doesn't mean it ought to be.  

 

Just because some behaviors are liked by teammates doesn't mean it was professional conduct.  Lots of unprofessional guys have been popular, it just means they are popular.  It speaks to nothing about their professionalism.  Earlier I think you were conflating the two and that is part of the disconnect.

 

Agreed.

 

That was the point I was trying to get at here:

 

"Most of these items are fact, not opinion and most people would categorize them as unprofessional.  I don't see the wiggle room on the press conference, throwing balls at pitchers, on the field, etc.

 

Others may say this is an edge we lack or whatever.  That is a different argument.  I stand by citing instance of unprofessionalism.  And I say that even though he was my favorite player here for many years.  It doesn't change multiple instances of him not living up to the reputation some are trying to sell"

[bird]

Man, did this thread ever careen off the road! 

 

It would have been just fine if the question remained whether or not Hunter, aside from his baseball skills, might provide other benefits to the club and specifically to certain players like Hicks, with a discussion of any history in support of or in contradiction of that question.

 

The last thing I want from our discussions here is anyone's opinion about moral or political stances. Not that your points of view aren't worthy, my friends.

 

And I certainly couldn't care less what Hunter or any of these guys thinks about gay rights, or any subject that doesn't involve a spinning baseball. Frankly, I don't care to know very much about what goes on in any of their lives off the diamond, although I'd be okay with having them all equipped with GPS devices to help me keep my daughter safe. I've met a lot of professional athletes in my long lifetime, and I can count on about one hand those that weren't completely empty-headed narcissists.

 

So Torii, go do your thing, and stay outta my yard.

[nicksaviking]

I have real issues with anyone who is actively for suppressing the rights of an entire class of people. What if a player today actively endorsed a candidate because that candidate wanted to make sure people could only marry people with the same skin color because their southern views said that's the way it should be?

 

I'm not disagreeing, but half of our population agree with him as do half of our elected officials and probably a good portion of his teammates.  Are you seriously asking the team to stop employing every socially conservative player?  The team would win about 10 games.

 

If we don't seperate politics from other areas of our lives, sports would be absolutely worthless to follow.

[shs_59]

Why not hire the extra coach to do just that?  Why spend the $10m for a "player/coach" who will also be taking away valuable AB's from the younger outfielders. 

 

problem w/ that is you think hicks will listen to yet another coach at this point , or a guy whose been there and done that, and will be playing along side him everyday?

 

we were going to sign a corner Of'er no matter what  so if you want  compare Rios - Rasmus - Markakis - Hunter - Suzuki - Aoki    and see who else you would of rather had.

 

for me the ONLY guy is Markakis who makes even more money.

[jimmer]

I'm not disagreeing, but half of our population agree with him as do half of our elected officials and probably a good portion of his teammates.  Are you seriously asking the team to stop employing every socially conservative player?  The team would win about 10 games.

 

If we don't seperate politics from other areas of our lives, sports would be absolutely worthless to follow.

Half our population agrees with suppressing the rights of a whole class of people and that should somehow make it okay?

 

Look, this stemmed from people thinking Hunter was unprofessional in his press conference. Then someone said it was the reporter who was unprofessional.  I disagreed. I said that the reporter asked Hunter if his views, and especially his commercial endorsing a Governor running on the fact he would bad gay marriage, affected his free agency market. Since PR considerations are a real thing in a job dependent on the public, it's a valid question and it's a legitimate baseball question considering he just signed a free agent contract.  For example, I doubt the Giants go after him after that, or the Mariners and such.   So it affects the possible teams he could go to, which affects his FA market.

 

And no, people are entitled to their opinion.  But people are also entitled to any backlash they get from publically pushing those views out there. I never once said the team should not hire people because of their personal beliefs.  Thing is, when players do what Hunter did, SOME teams may factor those things in when deciding whether or not to sign him.  Especially when that player is no longer a start but a old declining player.

 

And, hey, it's not like that was the only time he acted in a not so good way in that press conference. He was asked about his declining defense too and he got all rude and said anyone who believes in metrics has never played the game.  I imagine Perkins loved that comment, amongst MANY other players.

[jimmer]

problem w/ that is you think hicks will listen to yet another coach at this point , or a guy whose been there and done that, and will be playing along side him everyday?

 

we were going to sign a corner Of'er no matter what  so if you want  compare Rios - Rasmus - Markakis - Hunter - Suzuki - Aoki    and see who else you would of rather had.

 

for me the ONLY guy is Markakis who makes even more money.

I would have taken Aoki and Rasmus for sure over Hunter.  Easily.  I wouldn't have signed Hunter for 10M, period.

[ashbury]

I would have taken Aoki and Rasmus for sure over Hunter.  Easily. 

Because they would have been better mentors for Hicks?  (Getting back to the thread topic... hint hint)

[Paul Pleiss]

I'm a noted Torii re-signing hater, and also a dedicated Hicks homer. I'd like to be proven wrong about Torii in so much that it turns around Hicks and makes me righton the latter.

 

Torii for 10mil+ just seems like a waste of money. But it's not my money. And I'm not the one throwing to batters and having to rely on Hunter to make plays in RF. I'm just a fan. And if Torii can make Hicks work, and make this team better, then LETS GO TORII! The money is spent. Time to get on board and cheer these fellas to victory.

[jokin]

If memory serves me, Gardy has laid into him for showing up to the ballpark and not knowing who the opposing pitcher is.  He has been late a few times and Gardy has shown up.  By and large I think Gardy and company were pretty fed up with his focus, communication to the team, and the way in which he prepares for games.

 

Lavelle has said on a few occasions that the Twins patience with Hicks is close to running out.

 

 Yup, all of this was encapsulated in this epic TD thread:  http://twinsdaily.com/topic/11117-according-to-len3-it-appears-the-twins-are-near-the-end-of-their-patience-w-hicks/

 

Besides the dowright strange on-again, off-again switch-hitting saga, and the elements you stated above... there were many other reports over the last couple of years questioning his work ethic and commitment to the game-  most recently, the strange, sudden dismissal from his winter league team last November, following the Twins displeasure with his refusal to play winter ball the previous winter- when it was obvious how much he needed to work on if he was ever going to reach his potential, Hicks has even stated his preference to shooting a round of golf over baseball...  there's plenty of fodder to invite questions, and is automatically going to be accentuated, when a top draft pick and a guy with this much natural talent has failed to meet expectations so dramatically.

[nicksaviking]

Well I always did assume guys who develop a receding hairline in their early 20's probably have to at least consider the possibility giving up on their dreams. I tell ya, I'm not sure how you poor balding SOB's find the will power to get up in the morning. Bravo to all of you!

[diehardtwinsfan]

Well I always did assume guys who develop a receding hairline in their early 20's probably have to at least consider the possibility giving up on their dreams. I tell ya, I'm not sure how you poor balding SOB's find the will power to get up in the morning. Bravo to all of you!

We shave our heads... That solves that problem.

 

Now per Ash's hint, let's get this one back on topic.

[Paul Pleiss]

I'm not disagreeing, but half of our population agree with him as do half of our elected officials and probably a good portion of his teammates.  Are you seriously asking the team to stop employing every socially conservative player?  The team would win about 10 games.

 

If we don't seperate politics from other areas of our lives, sports would be absolutely worthless to follow.

 

I'm not sure we should separate politics from sports. Torii Hunter's views should matter to a baseball team. To the ownership, the club house, and the fans. It matters. It may not matter between the lines, but it maters.

[Paul Pleiss]

Would it be socially acceptable to play MLB baseball with a southern flag tattoo'd on your face? A swastika?

 

Obviously I'm going to an extreme here, and this is maybe a little off topic, but I think that at some level, this is the extreme view of discussing Torii's public views on certain issues.

 

But to be honest, I think the autograph lines for Torii Hunter at Twins Fest speak a lot louder than those of us who disagreed with the Hunter signing. His lines were ridiculously long for a declining player with the league's worst defensive skills in 2015. The lines said that the fans care about Torii. They want him. Even if some of us who disagree with his views about homosexuality or sabrmetrics, by and large it seems that Twins fans love Torii for what he has done for this ball club, and it's hard to argue with that.

[bird]

I'm not sure we should separate politics from sports. Torii Hunter's views should matter to a baseball team. To the ownership, the club house, and the fans. It matters. It may not matter between the lines, but it maters.

No player's, owner's, or manager's political, religious, or moral viewpoint should matter one iota UNLESS those viewpoints have a negative effect on the clubhouse, the on-field performance,  the financial performance of the organization, or the reputation of the organization and its stakeholders.

 

The more an organization separates its own reputation from the personal lives of its players, the better in my opinion. An organization can support good behavior, like Morneau's charitable event for example, but it runs risks by exploiting an individual personality. How often does the off-field behavior of an athlete actually do something POSITIVE for the organization independent of the teams' own orchestrated events?

 

So I couldn't disagree more, Paul. If I ran the Twins, I'd tell every employee to be very private about their private lives, and I'd monitor Twitter to gauge whether any of my players were acting like fools and hence heightening my inclination towards including them in trade talks. 

 

If you follow some of these players on Twitter, they'll make you cringe on occasion. Tell you what, if I'm the Twins, I'm having a little sit-down this spring with a few of these guys and encouraging them to tone down their Twitter entries.

[JB_Iowa]

If you follow some of these players on Twitter, they'll make you cringe on occasion. Tell you what, if I'm the Twins, I'm having a little sit-down this spring with a few of these guys and encouraging them to tone down their Twitter entries.

 

You must follow way different ones than I do because I rarely see anything controversial.

 

Mostly I see winter workouts, baby pictures, dog pictures, wife/girlfriend pictures, hunting pictures (Dozier hunts way too much), grilling meat tweets and a lot of music tweets esp. from Trevor May.

 

Nothing offensive and I enjoy the baby and dog pictures alot and they all seem to have attractive, appropriately dressed wives/girlfriends.

 

(Off topic, sorry.)

[Paul Pleiss]

No player's, owner's, or manager's political, religious, or moral viewpoint should matter one iota UNLESS those viewpoints have a negative effect on the clubhouse, the on-field performance,  the financial performance of the organization, or the reputation of the organization and its stakeholders.

 

The more an organization separates its own reputation from the personal lives of its players, the better in my opinion. An organization can support good behavior, like Morneau's charitable event for example, but it runs risks by exploiting an individual personality. How often does the off-field behavior of an athlete actually do something POSITIVE for the organization independent of the teams' own orchestrated events?

 

So I couldn't disagree more, Paul. If I ran the Twins, I'd tell every employee to be very private about their private lives, and I'd monitor Twitter to gauge whether any of my players were acting like fools and hence heightening my inclination towards including them in trade talks. 

 

If you follow some of these players on Twitter, they'll make you cringe on occasion. Tell you what, if I'm the Twins, I'm having a little sit-down this spring with a few of these guys and encouraging them to tone down their Twitter entries.

 

So you're saying it doesn't matter, but in the same comment you're saying that you'd have some players tone things down. SO IT DOES MATTER!

 

The image of these players matters to their teams. There's a reason Michael Vick didn't have 32 job offers after he got out of prison.

 

I agree, however, that I think it's typically best for players to keep their private lives private, but when they make things public, when they openly endorse certain political positions, then those opinions are part of the public consciousness and those opinions matter, some more than other.

 

If Brian Dozier called a press conference tomorrow to talk about how Ray Rice was black-balled by the NFL, and talked about a man having a right to keep his woman in line, you better believe that's going to matter.

 

For better or for worse, players personal lives are part of the big picture. Especially in the club house. Chemistry matters. It's hard to quantify or qualify, but it matters. As professionals I hope that those guys can put those things off when they're playing between the lines, but that doesn't mean those things don't matter.