Is Kennys Vargas the Real McCoy?

[kab21]

That said, I'm not as optimistic as some people on this thread (floor of Prince Fielder!!), and I'm still a little confused why Vargas has been anointed as the starting DH and cleanup hitter with very little debate or skepticism. Considering that it seems fairly likely (as many on this thread have already mentioned) that he could be sent down to AAA sometime next year, having him penciled in (with a backup plan in place) and expecting him to hit 6 or 7 in the lineup seems more prudent.

 

He's the starting DH because he did excellent in an extended callup last year.  Obviously if he struggles he will be sent down and it's not terribly unlikely that he will struggle.  I consider him a 50/50 bet next year but he is almost certainly going to be the opening day DH.

 

there is a backup plan in place.  Pinto, Rosario (Arcia/Hunter to DH) and even potentially Sano later.  Do you want the Twins to sign a legit veteran bat that will take AB's away the first time he has a few struggles?

[Brock Beauchamp]

He's the starting DH because he did excellent in an extended callup last year. Obviously if he struggles he will be sent down and it's not terribly unlikely that he will struggle. I consider him a 50/50 bet next year but he is almost certainly going to be the opening day DH.

 

there is a backup plan in place. Pinto, Rosario (Arcia/Hunter to DH) and even potentially Sano later. Do you want the Twins to sign a legit veteran bat that will take AB's away the first time he has a few struggles?

Yep. Let the kids play. If Vargas struggles, put Pinto in there. He's 26 years old and needs the ABs. If Pinto fails, put Arcia in there. He's a bad fielder.

 

And then there's Sano...

 

Lots of DH options on this team.

[ashbury]

Lots of DH options on this team.

Too many players have cluttered the 40-man these past few years, where the addition has been accompanied by "and if nothing else, he can always DH."

[brvama]

I personally like having a true DH on the team, instead of inserting anyone to fill the void. It means, or should, that everyone in the line-up is there b/c they are they best option on the team. IMO, it forces the club to get position players that belong there. Now, this is not to intend upgrades can't be made, but using the DH as a last resort position shows a weakness in the line-up.

[kab21]

I personally like having a true DH on the team, instead of inserting anyone to fill the void. It means, or should, that everyone in the line-up is there b/c they are they best option on the team. IMO, it forces the club to get position players that belong there. Now, this is not to intend upgrades can't be made, but using the DH as a last resort position shows a weakness in the line-up.

Vargas is a true DH.  Possibly Arcia and Pinto also since their fielding is poor at best. 

[jorgenswest]

Vargas will likely struggle this year and I hope the Twins stick with him. It will be tempting to shuffle him back and forth to AAA. I think he will be a better player in 2016 if he is allowed to work through the struggles. I also think he has the kind of character that will handle set backs better than some of the younger players we have seen.

[Lonestar]

I think that these 2014 splits tell the story for Vargas:

 

vs RHP (133 PA) .309/.338/.561, 8 HR

vs LHP (101 PA) .228/.287/.315, 1 HR

 

 

I'm not trolling you, thrylos, but his AA numbers tell another story FWIW.

 

vs RHB .277/.350/.459/.809 in 255 PA   24 BB/44 K

vs LHB  .297/.382/.517/.899 in 135 PA  17 BB/20 K

[brvama]

Vargas is a true DH.  Possibly Arcia and Pinto also since their fielding is poor at best.

 

That is true kab. I look at Vargas as only a DH, whereas I see Arcia and Pinto having some potential as a position player. I agree their fielding is poor but I'm not ready to just put them in the DH role yet. It is possible, with enough work and coaching, that they can become serviceable position players.

 

OTOH, I am assuming Vargas fielding is well below the others. I don't know that for sure, but haven't read anything to the contrary, IF he can play first adequately then I think he could be the backup first baseman and share DH duties with the others.

 

As I wrote this I realized that these are young players still developing and nothing is set in stone at this time. Thus we could be having the same conversation next year about others.

[kab21]

That is true kab. I look at Vargas as only a DH, whereas I see Arcia and Pinto having some potential as a position player. I agree their fielding is poor but I'm not ready to just put them in the DH role yet. It is possible, with enough work and coaching, that they can become serviceable position players.

 

OTOH, I am assuming Vargas fielding is well below the others. I don't know that for sure, but haven't read anything to the contrary, IF he can play first adequately then I think he could be the backup first baseman and share DH duties with the others.

 

As I wrote this I realized that these are young players still developing and nothing is set in stone at this time. Thus we could be having the same conversation next year about others.

 

I don't really understand what you want.  Are you looking for someone so awful in the field that he can only fill the DH role?

 

I can understand wanting a set DH instead of rotating through a bunch of light hitters on the roster but guys like Arcia and Pinto should be able to hit even though they might not be dreadfully awful in the field.

[brvama]

Kab, I'd prefer to have Vargas as the DH and use Arcia/Pinto as position players.  That is based on my assumption that Vargas is not much of a fielder at all.  I see him as a Ortiz-type of player.  As far as fielding of the other two, the Twins have indicated with their actions that they believe that they can be serviceable position players.  So that is where I'd use them.  Let them grow at their positions. 

[Dr. Evil]

Time will tell. But, for the record I'm making a call on him. I hope I'm right!

[dxpavelka]

I was very bearish on Vargas for several reasons:

- Unsustainable BABIP supported initial success

- Swing at everything approach (almost identical to Arcia)

- 5/1 K-to-BB ratio

- Through 234 PAs, his OPS is lower than Pinto and Parmelee through the same number of PAs to start their careers.

- Generally mediocre prospect pedigree, and significantly worse numbers than Arcia and Pinto at the same minor-league levels.

 

However, I am now a little more optimistic due to a couple reasons:

- Raw power. He hit several of the longest and hardest-hit homers this year. As Arcia has shown, you can overcome a lot of plate discipline issues by hitting the ball really, really hard when you do manage to make contact.

- Plate coverage. Surprisingly, Vargas was among the best on the team at making contact on strikes (88%, same as Mauer, higher than Plouffe and Dozier). Contrast that with Arcia, who is among the worst in baseball at swinging and missing on pitches in the strike zone. Almost all of Vargas's strikeout issues seem to come from swinging (and missing) too much on balls. That seems like something that is fixable with more experience, rather than a mechanical issue.

 

That said, I'm not as optimistic as some people on this thread (floor of Prince Fielder!!), and I'm still a little confused why Vargas has been anointed as the starting DH and cleanup hitter with very little debate or skepticism. Considering that it seems fairly likely (as many on this thread have already mentioned) that he could be sent down to AAA sometime next year, having him penciled in (with a backup plan in place) and expecting him to hit 6 or 7 in the lineup seems more prudent.

RE:  I'm still a little confused why Vargas has been anointed as the starting DH and cleanup hitter with very little debate or skepticism.  Have you seen the other options?

[Paul Pleiss]

Not everyone can be the real McCoy

[ashbury]

Not everyone can be the real McCoy

http://media.youthink.com/images_quiz/2014/07/26/full_698552038.jpg

[JB_Iowa]

You know you are old when "The Real McCoy" makes you think of Walter Brennan instead of DeForest Kelley. 

[ashbury]

You know you are old when "The Real McCoy" makes you think of Walter Brennan instead of DeForest Kelley. 

Yep, by cracky, you're right.

[kab21]

Kab, I'd prefer to have Vargas as the DH and use Arcia/Pinto as position players.  That is based on my assumption that Vargas is not much of a fielder at all.  I see him as a Ortiz-type of player.  As far as fielding of the other two, the Twins have indicated with their actions that they believe that they can be serviceable position players.  So that is where I'd use them.  Let them grow at their positions. 

 

I think that is the plan so I'm further confused.  There's a chance that Vargas struggles this year and gets sent down but I'm not sure what you want.  Do you want the Twins to promote the AAA DH because he's used to the position?  Do you not want the Twins to find AB's for talented hitters like Pinto that are likely going to be stuck on the bench?  Would you prefer that the Twins put a better fielding OF'er at DH and kept Arcia in the field for this stability?  Do you want a more obvious plan B DH brought in that takes AB's away from Vargas? 

[brvama]

E

I think that is the plan so I'm further confused.  There's a chance that Vargas struggles this year and gets sent down but I'm not sure what you want.  Do you want the Twins to promote the AAA DH because he's used to the position?  Do you not want the Twins to find AB's for talented hitters like Pinto that are likely going to be stuck on the bench?  Would you prefer that the Twins put a better fielding OF'er at DH and kept Arcia in the field for this stability?  Do you want a more obvious plan B DH brought in that takes AB's away from Vargas?

 

Excuse me, I'm not a futurist. I don't know how things will turn out, but I'd give these three every opportunity to thrive or perish at said positions. If we are willing or want pitching prospects learning on the job, shouldn't we also allow the position players the same latitude? No where did I say that Pinto or Arcia should not be used as a DH. Of course, using them in place of Vargas is obvious and the most teams operate. I tend to like the model Boston uses, that's all..

 

Disagree if you like but I think I've explained myself sufficiently.

[kab21]

E

Excuse me, I'm not a futurist. I don't know how things will turn out, but I'd give these three every opportunity to thrive or perish at said positions. If we are willing or want pitching prospects learning on the job, shouldn't we also allow the position players the same latitude? No where did I say that Pinto or Arcia should not be used as a DH. Of course, using them in place of Vargas is obvious and the most teams operate. I tend to like the model Boston uses, that's all..

 

Disagree if you like but I think I've explained myself sufficiently.

 

I just have no idea what you are criticizing next year's likely plan for.  By all accounts Vargas is the guy and he will have a fairly long leash.  Isn't that what you want?  Pinto and Arcia only enter the equation if Vargas is injured or struggles.  This is what happens on virtually every team when their assigned DH goes down (including Boston).

[brvama]

I just have no idea what you are criticizing next year's likely plan for.  By all accounts Vargas is the guy and he will have a fairly long leash.  Isn't that what you want?  Pinto and Arcia only enter the equation if Vargas is injured or struggles.  This is what happens on virtually every team when their assigned DH goes down (including Boston).

Kab, somehow we must have communication disconnect here. What you have said above is what I'm advocating. So what is don't you understand? My initial point is that if there is an obvious DH type player use him there before you try other options. That's all.

 

I also think Arcia and Pinto need to be given every chance to prove they are viable options at their respective positions before we move them into the DH role primarily.

 

If none, or part, of this fails it's time to adjust. Now tell me how does this differ from your position?