Astros mess

[JB_Iowa]

For whatever reason, the MLBPA is taking a big interest in this:

 

 

• Buster Olney ‏@Buster_ESPN 1h
  From MLBPA re:Aiken: "Today, two young men should be one step closer to realizing their dreams of becoming Major League ballplayers...
  "Because of the actions of the … Astros, they are not. The MLBPA, the players and their advisers are exploring all legal options.”
   
   
  

 

Note that the MLBPA is considering legal options as well as the players and their advisers.

 

 

Houston may ultimately win the legal battle but they are likely to lose the public relations war.

 

Again, we're not talking annual salary here. We're talking a one-time bonus.

 

And we have the Astros actions set against the hardball they've been playing on promotions/extensions/service time.

 

I'm sure the MLBPA wasn't happy with them before this latest mess.

[JB_Iowa]

Might suck for the Astros, but they made a $5M dollar to an 18 year old kid with what they thought was arm issues and he did not take it. Told the agent that they will go over slot with Nix if Aiken takes it. That's what seems to have happened. I'd really blame the agent as much as the Astros here.

 

Not when the $5 million offer wasn't made until after they had agreed on $6 plus; went back to a little over $3 milllon and then didn't get raised to $5 million until a few minutes before the deadline.

 

That's game playing pure and simple. I doubt whether there are many agents who want to deal with the Astros these days. Oh, they'll do it if the money is right for their clients best interests but when combining this mess; the promotion/service time issues and the whole leaked trade negotiations bit from the Astros, their management is coming off as inept.

[Thrylos]

Not when the $5 million offer wasn't made until after they had agreed on $6 plus; went back to a little over $3 milllon and then didn't get raised to $5 million until a few minutes before the deadline.

 

That's game playing pure and simple. I doubt whether there are many agents who want to deal with the Astros these days. Oh, they'll do it if the money is right for their clients best interests but when combining this mess; the promotion/service time issues and the whole leaked trade negotiations bit from the Astros, their management is coming off as inept.

 

I don't disagree about the Astros' ineptitude and bad PR here. My point is that they did nothing against the rules. Oral commitments do not count as contract offers, unless they are in paper and signed. And if that were the case, they could had not reneged...

[h2oface]

I would also wager that the minor league coaches are better coaches. But, Brock brings up a key point, by waiting three years to sign, he pushes back the REALLY big money by three years.......three more years he could get hurt.

 

I can understand Houston being leery of a reported significant smaller ligament, and would rather offer the about $3.1 million bonus instead. "...... three more years he could get hurt" on somebody else's dollar, rather than theirs. I see this situation as a need for physicals before one is drafted, but even several doctors have different opinions about it. It certainly makes sense to me that a thinner ligament that is somewhat of a pitching epidemic anyway is great cause for concern, and it was not disclosed or not known about pre-draft. The round 5 pick, Nix, is really the casualty of this whole situation, as not he is caught in the bonus limits at this late date. Interesting that the big winner here may be UCLA, as both are committed there. The possibility of Houston getting the 1st and 2nd pick in next years draft seems really unfair, though. If Aiken and his agent, etc, really have the confidence that this ligament abnormality will make no difference, I don't understand why around $3.1 million or $5 million or whatever the final offer was would still be unattractive for a teenager. If Aiken actually will become a star and not a flop, he will make his way more money than a baseball player really should anyway, and then when the ligament goes on the hard throwing pitchers arm, it will cost the team maybe $30 million for the full season he is out, and the part of the next that he is coming back and pitching like a ........ Nolasco or Pelfrey or something.

[blairpaul715]

After getting burned on Appel, I am guessing they are trying to be more prudent.......honestly I don't blame them, even tho if it was me I probably give it to him........Negotiations are all about leverage, and tho this is not a Boras client, you see Boras try to leverage teams all the time, he did it with Rodon, getting him the best deal, I would have played hardball with Rodon as he didn't have leverage for next yr if he didn't sign this year. Just my opinion I do feel bad for the Nix kid, altho apparently he must have put something out that he was going to be hard to sign, so he wasn't drafted till the 5th round, so he had no problem going to college it seems. Aiken hard to turn down 3 to 5 million, unless coming from a well to do family.

[gunnarthor]

I don't disagree about the Astros' ineptitude and bad PR here. My point is that they did nothing against the rules. Oral commitments do not count as contract offers, unless they are in paper and signed. And if that were the case, they could had not reneged...

 

Actually, a contract doesn't need to be signed to be enforceable and Nix may very well have a strong case. And under the CBA, the Astros aren't supposed to be able to say an offer is contingent on another person signing. We'll see how this plays out but it's pretty obvious Nix and Aiken are going to file grievances against the Astros.

 

What is stunning is that the Astros basically did this over 1.5 m dollars. That's insane.

[drjim]

After getting burned on Appel, I am guessing they are trying to be more prudent.......honestly I don't blame them, even tho if it was me I probably give it to him........Negotiations are all about leverage, and tho this is not a Boras client, you see Boras try to leverage teams all the time, he did it with Rodon, getting him the best deal, I would have played hardball with Rodon as he didn't have leverage for next yr if he didn't sign this year. Just my opinion I do feel bad for the Nix kid, altho apparently he must have put something out that he was going to be hard to sign, so he wasn't drafted till the 5th round, so he had no problem going to college it seems. Aiken hard to turn down 3 to 5 million, unless coming from a well to do family.

 

Not to pick on you specifically, but I always chuckle when people bring up Boras like he is some unique entity among agents doing things no one else thinks of. Casey Close is more established agent with a better roster of players, he just isn't the media whore that Boras is.

[markos]

What is stunning is that the Astros basically did this over 1.5 m dollars. That's insane.

 

This is the crazy part to me. $1.5M is practically a rounding error for a major league club, and Houston has been running some of the lowest payrolls in baseball the past few years. Nix and Aiken for $6.5M total was fine, but $8.0M was too much.

 

Does anyone know if Aiken could insure himself for the next year? I know that some major league pitchers have done that prior to free agency.

[Mike Sixel]

I don't disagree about the Astros' ineptitude and bad PR here. My point is that they did nothing against the rules. Oral commitments do not count as contract offers, unless they are in paper and signed. And if that were the case, they could had not reneged...

 

Clearly you are not a lawyer.

[gunnarthor]

Does anyone know if Aiken could insure himself for the next year? I know that some major league pitchers have done that prior to free agency.

 

I believe he must have done something like that, his agent (adviser) would make sure of it. My guess is that Aiken will file a grievance and has already gotten a pretty good idea of his chances otherwise he'd have taken the money. If he loses his grievance, he'll go to junior college or the St Paul Saints and be a top 10 pick next year.

[jorgenswest]

As a baseball decision, they traded Aiken and Nix for the number 2 pick in the draft next year.

 

If the ligament was a significant concern, it may turn out to be a good deal for them. If that pick is Duke's 's Mike Matuella, they end up with a player of comparable talent with the same or earlier arrival time in the major leagues.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Do they get another 5th rounder for Nix?

[maxisagod]

Do they get another 5th rounder for Nix?

 

Nope. That pick is gone. It's becoming clear the Astros rebuild will take a lot longer than the Cubs, with their number 1 picks getting injured, playing poorly, and not signing, it adds years on to the process. The Twins on the other hand need more of their young player to start claiming jobs when they get to the Twins. Pino, Hicks, and Arcia haven't claimed a spot like Gibson and Dozier, keeping the rebuild timeline in flux.

[Kwak]

It seems to me that Houston was trying to shave money from Aiken so they could sign Nix and the other draft choice. Aiken's agent gambled that he could leverage the deals and satisfy his clients. Aiken likely believes he is entitled to "full slot" and is piqued beyond compromise, expressing his anger with a Hxxx No! to you all.

 

Aiken can play Juco ball, and be drafted next year. If he doesn't like that he can wait to be drafted later. If his arm "falters", well, then Aiken has made the mistake.

 

I don't understand the bile towards Houston and hope it isn't sactimony.

[JB_Iowa]

It seems to me that Houston was trying to shave money from Aiken so they could sign Nix and the other draft choice. Aiken's agent gambled that he could leverage the deals and satisfy his clients. Aiken likely believes he is entitled to "full slot" and is piqued beyond compromise, expressing his anger with a Hxxx No! to you all.

 

Aiken can play Juco ball, and be drafted next year. If he doesn't like that he can wait to be drafted later. If his arm "falters", well, then Aiken has made the mistake.

 

I don't understand the bile towards Houston and hope it isn't sactimony.

 

Aiken was already taking a discount from "full slot" when he agreed to take $6.5 m (full slot was over $7.9). The difference between full slot and the $6.5 was enough to fund the overage to Nix (and maybe Marshall too).

 

But after Houston saw the medicals, it decided to play hardball and offer Aiken only 40% of slot (about 3.2 million or so) -- thus preserving its right to a replacement pick if Aiken didn't sign.

 

Finally about 5 minutes before the deadline, Houston offered Aiken the $5 million. If Houston hadn't absolutely insulted Aiken by offering just the 40%, Aiken might well have come down to $5 million based on the medicals -- we'll never know because by that point the well was poisoned.

 

If you were ANY player, how much would you want to sign with Houston after the revelations this year about the games they are playing on pressuring players to sell out pre-arb and arb years before they will promote them and after the leaks about their trade strategies?

 

I don't see how any player or his agent could have any trust in Houston's management. My bile isn't sanctimony -- it is watching a course of behavior on the part of management that is FAR LESS than honorable.

[Dman]

Aiken was already taking a discount from "full slot" when he agreed to take $6.5 m (full slot was over $7.9). The difference between full slot and the $6.5 was enough to fund the overage to Nix (and maybe Marshall too).

 

But after Houston saw the medicals, it decided to play hardball and offer Aiken only 40% of slot (about 3.2 million or so) -- thus preserving its right to a replacement pick if Aiken didn't sign.

 

Finally about 5 minutes before the deadline, Houston offered Aiken the $5 million. If Houston hadn't absolutely insulted Aiken by offering just the 40%, Aiken might well have come down to $5 million based on the medicals -- we'll never know because by that point the well was poisoned.

 

If you were ANY player, how much would you want to sign with Houston after the revelations this year about the games they are playing on pressuring players to sell out pre-arb and arb years before they will promote them and after the leaks about their trade strategies?

 

I don't see how any player or his agent could have any trust in Houston's management. My bile isn't sanctimony -- it is watching a course of behavior on the part of management that is FAR LESS than honorable.

 

 

I agree they poisoned the well. You don't offer the least possible amount you can to the player everyone thought was the best prospect in the draft unless you don't want them. Why would the player want to play for a team that values him so little? The offers Houston made at the end were laughable as they had tons of time to work this out if they wanted to. They wanted to get a bargain or nothing at all and personally I think they got what they deserved.

 

If I were a player or agent I would do whatever I could to not deal with Houston in the future. I would not recommend my clients go to an organization that appears to be all about hardball negotiations. I would take less money and go to a team that will hopefully treat me better.

[Monkeypaws]

I remember the joy in the Aiken household the night of the draft - getting drafted by Houston is gonna become a bummer for these kids.

[gunnarthor]

Aiken was already taking a discount from "full slot" when he agreed to take $6.5 m (full slot was over $7.9). The difference between full slot and the $6.5 was enough to fund the overage to Nix (and maybe Marshall too).

 

But after Houston saw the medicals, it decided to play hardball and offer Aiken only 40% of slot (about 3.2 million or so) -- thus preserving its right to a replacement pick if Aiken didn't sign.

 

Finally about 5 minutes before the deadline, Houston offered Aiken the $5 million. If Houston hadn't absolutely insulted Aiken by offering just the 40%, Aiken might well have come down to $5 million based on the medicals -- we'll never know because by that point the well was poisoned.

 

If you were ANY player, how much would you want to sign with Houston after the revelations this year about the games they are playing on pressuring players to sell out pre-arb and arb years before they will promote them and after the leaks about their trade strategies?

 

I don't see how any player or his agent could have any trust in Houston's management. My bile isn't sanctimony -- it is watching a course of behavior on the part of management that is FAR LESS than honorable.

I agree. I think the Springer and Aiken fiascos are going to really affect the team although probably not very publicly. But if I'm a top 10 talent in next years draft, why would they trust the Astros not to lowball them again?

[Thrylos]

But if I'm a top 10 talent in next years draft, why would they trust the Astros not to lowball them again?

 

Because even top 10 talent has no choice of the team that drafts them... "Trust" is a moot point.

[gunnarthor]

Because even top 10 talent has no choice of the team that drafts them... "Trust" is a moot point.

 

All prospects talk to teams before the draft to get a sense of what they will sign for. A team might say, "if you're there at #4, will you take slot?" or "Will you take X amount below slot if we take you at #2?" I suspect a lot of players/agents next year will be a little more defensive toward the Astros. There isn't anything a player can do to prevent the Astros from lowballing them after the draft but a lot will be wary of agreeing to favorable deals pre-draft like Aiken did.

[tarheeltwinsfan]

. Aiken's agent gambled that he could leverage the deals and satisfy his clients.

 

If that were true that the agent was trying to leverage these two deals for his two clients, wouldn't that be a conflict of interest for the agent to represent both clients?

[biggentleben]

Clearly you are not a lawyer.

 

Thanks to the way baseball has antitrust exemption, this is not an issue that can hit the courts. It could go to arbitration, but the players do not qualify for arbitration due to the MLBPA negotiating all players who have not participated in the major leagues out of eligibility for the union and union lawyer protection.

 

The players' union basically screwed over draftees for years and years, and now Tony Clark is trying to come out the hero and "fight" for the players who were wronged by the Astros. The hole was dug when Clark was still playing, and now he's having to manage through it. The other dumb part of this is the stupid rule against agents working with players who haven't yet signed. An "advisor" cannot fight in the legal world as a representative for the player. An agent can. These things that have been negotiated away by the MLBPA are now hurting future members.

 

The good thing that should come out of this is that you will hear about a draft medical combine being added. If 30 teams can verify that they have the same report on a player, he can't claim there's no issue. At the same time, if all 30 teams know the issue before the draft, they can't use this tactic to "find something" when they do a physical after getting a verbal agreement put together.

 

The Astros screwed the pooch here. MLBPA screwed the pooch years before, and it's coming home to roost here. What I hope is that it isn't a case that 3 months from now, no one remembers.

[Guest USAFChief]

"The other dumb part of this is the stupid rule against agents working with players who haven't yet signed. An "advisor" cannot fight in the legal world as a representative for the player. An agent can. These things that have been negotiated away by the MLBPA are now hurting future members."

 

Is there such a rule? That seems like an NCAA thing, but I could be wrong.

[JB_Iowa]

I would think it would be hard for Close to represent any of the parties in the proceedings. It looks like he's a witness to me (and a really important one).

[diehardtwinsfan]

The other thing that I keep coming back to is good faith in negotiations. The lawyers of the world could address this more, but I have a tough time believing the Astros have been operating in good faith.

 

The problem with anti-trust is basically this. If Aiken were a free agent, someone is going to give him more than the 6.5M that the Astros agreed on. As it is, his value is suppressed. The Astros tried and failed to squeeze him for more.

[kab21]

. Aiken's agent gambled that he could leverage the deals and satisfy his clients.

 

If that were true that the agent was trying to leverage these two deals for his two clients, wouldn't that be a conflict of interest for the agent to represent both clients?

 

The knew the likely demands before they drafted both of them.

 

The issue here is the non-injury injury. I don't think that is a valid excuse to renege on an agreed upon but not signed offer. As for the 2nd player that sucks but that is the draft game. He knew that the only way the Astros could go overslot was to sign Aiken. When that fell apart so did his offer.

 

I expect to see some more tweaking in the draft and int'l signings during the next CBA. They made significant progress in both areas but they clearly didn't think a few things through.

 

I have been rather indifferent about the Astros but I'm not a fan at how they are conducting themselves and it will be interesting to see how this impacts them in the future in the draft and in FA.

[drjim]

Baseball America had a really good podcast discussing this situation that they released over the weekend.

 

One aspect I didn't consider enough was the negotiating timeline. I believe the Astros believed in good faith that there was a medical situation with Aiken which made it worthwhile to drop his bonus. However, it seems that after the MRI results came back they just dropped the bonus to the required 40% (to keep them eligible for compensation) and then started negotiating with Marshall with the money they assumed they would save. It seems they never really budged from that 40% level until the last day when it was too late.

 

I think that is an amazingly foolish way to negotiate. I suspect that if they negotiated in good faith from the day the MRI was revealed they could have reached a settlement, perhaps even at the $5 million dollar level. That should have been the top priority but they played hardball and got burned, and I suspect it will cost them going forward if they try to make agreements with players before the draft.

 

BA also came in hard and asked the question of whether Astros ownership can trust Luhnow with the next draft. In their three drafts they have one good one (while still whiffing on the best player), one terrible pick, and one complete fiasco. Not a great way to start a tenure.

[biggentleben]

"The other dumb part of this is the stupid rule against agents working with players who haven't yet signed. An "advisor" cannot fight in the legal world as a representative for the player. An agent can. These things that have been negotiated away by the MLBPA are now hurting future members."

 

Is there such a rule? That seems like an NCAA thing, but I could be wrong.

 

Yes, until they've officially signed a contract, the person is simply an adviser except for college seniors who have no more eligibility. In the NFL, an agent is allowed to act as an agent without a contract before the draft as there is a cutoff date for returning back to school, similar with the NBA. Due to the odd setup of the MLB draft, players are allowed to maintain college eligibility. Rather than protect players from day 1 that they state their intent to be drafted, MLBPA has allowed this rule, which leaves draftees unprotected by the union until they're in the major leagues and unprotected by legal representation until AFTER they've signed their first contract.

[biggentleben]

BA also came in hard and asked the question of whether Astros ownership can trust Luhnow with the next draft. In their three drafts they have one good one (while still whiffing on the best player), one terrible pick, and one complete fiasco. Not a great way to start a tenure.

 

I do not agree with this take. Correia, even with the injury, was ranked the #2 prospect in all of baseball by John Sickels (ahead of Buxton). Before his injury, there was a lot of rumble about Correia as the #1 prospect in the entire game. So, the 2012 draft is a widely considered success in the game, their 2013 draft has not gone as planned at the top, but that is completely a hindsight criticism as Appel was considered the odds-on #1 throughout the game. This season is a fiasco, certainly, but judging any draft class before 5+ years from the time of the draft is shortsighted, and there's really not a class before this one that was mismanaged by Luhnow. This year may have burned up a lot of currency with advisers for the players, however, and that aspect of pre-draft discussion (and post-draft negotiating) may need to be done by another member of the front office going forward.

[Guest USAFChief]

Yes, until they've officially signed a contract, the person is simply an adviser except for college seniors who have no more eligibility. In the NFL, an agent is allowed to act as an agent without a contract before the draft as there is a cutoff date for returning back to school, similar with the NBA. Due to the odd setup of the MLB draft, players are allowed to maintain college eligibility. Rather than protect players from day 1 that they state their intent to be drafted, MLBPA has allowed this rule, which leaves draftees unprotected by the union until they're in the major leagues and unprotected by legal representation until AFTER they've signed their first contract.

Right...but all of that is related to college eligibility, right?

 

How is MLB or the MLBPA responsible for that?