TwinsDaily 2013 Hall of Fame Ballot

It is a shame that Jeff Cirillo didn't get it

I'm glad Bernie Williams isn't staying on the ballot...

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Originally Posted by ThePuck

I get that, and that's cool, but I don't think we should say it's okay just cause they weren't testing for it. Right is right, wrong is wrong, legal is legal, illegal is illegal. I don't think there's a grey area just because it was banned but not tested for. So while semantically you're correct, I wouldn't say he was a HOFer after 5 or 6 seasons just because they hadn't started testing for the banned stuff he was taking yet. Heck, it was still illegal.

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You honestly believe he was taking it at that point? His closest friends and advisors that have stated that he did use all say that it was in response to 1998's attention to two guys who were obviously bending rules. If you look through 1998, Bonds put up a 164 OPS+, 400+ home runs and 400+ stolen bases, and he won 3 MVPs (should have been 4 in a row) and placed in the top 5 of MVP voting 7 times while winning 8 Gold Gloves (and was renowned as a great fielder, one thing that obviously disappeared after 1998). That player is a HOF player every single day.

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Originally Posted by ThePuck

I'm glad Bernie Williams isn't staying on the ballot...

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Certainly knocks down the opportunity to hear excellent jazz down the halls of HOF.

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Originally Posted by biggentleben

You honestly believe he was taking it at that point? His closest friends and advisors that have stated that he did use all say that it was in response to 1998's attention to two guys who were obviously bending rules. If you look through 1998, Bonds put up a 164 OPS+, 400+ home runs and 400+ stolen bases, and he won 3 MVPs (should have been 4 in a row) and placed in the top 5 of MVP voting 7 times while winning 8 Gold Gloves (and was renowned as a great fielder, one thing that obviously disappeared after 1998). That player is a HOF player every single day.

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Well, the poster said he was a HOF member before they were outlawed, and they were outlawed in '91. At that time, he wasn't a HOFer.

And are we really supposed to believe 'His closest friends and advisers that have stated that he did use all say that it was in response to 1998's attention to two guys who were obviously bending rules.' Aren't these the same guys that said, at the beginning, he didn't use it ever? So it's like, we have evidence to suggest he used it from X date. Oh, okay, you ahve that huh? Hmm, well, he didn't use it before.

It's like the Pettite admission that he gets praised for. he was caught, so he admitted what was already known, but only during that time..you know, the time they already knew for sure about. It's like a wife catching her husband in bed with another woman doing it. Well, yeah honey, I was cheating...but it's the first time. Is that an admission?

I'm not going to claim I know when he did what...

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Originally Posted by ThePuck

I'm not going to claim I know when he did what...

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...and in doing so, you differentiate yourself from HOF voters, most of whom claim a player did them on this date or this date...without information to back that up.

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Originally Posted by biggentleben

...and in doing so, you differentiate yourself from HOF voters, most of whom claim a player did them on this date or this date...without information to back that up.

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One writer said he won't ever vote for a player who played in the steroid ERA, period. By saying that, he should have his HOF voting rights revoked.

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Originally Posted by ThePuck

One writer said he won't ever vote for a player who played in the steroid ERA, period. By saying that, he should have his HOF voting rights revoked.

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Absolutely. We can argue day and night about whether a player who has knowingly used should get in, but there needs to be accountability for the voting. Making absurd generalizations like that is simply not OK in a HOF voter. Jack Morris is a contentious point on this board, understandably so because of his Twins history, but people attempting to claim "the steroid era" inflated his numbers are simply asinine. There's no reason a person who can't read a calendar is allowed to vote on who makes the hall of fame.

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Originally Posted by biggentleben

Then you'd need to dump 90% of the Hall of Famers from DiMaggio to Mantle to Mays for all the amphetamines ("Greenies") taken for over 50 years of the game before they were even outlawed (remember that steroids weren't specifically outlawed - as in tested for - until Barry Bonds was already an easy Hall of Fame choice). Those greenies were illegal in the general public just as steroids have been, and they've actually been proven to improve total performance. There is no such thing as a clean era in the HOF.

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This just proves my point. It is all hypocrisy. Why do we let most cheaters in, but not Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe. If it is only about performance then those two guys need to be in. The people who are in are already in, and theres nothing that we can do about that, but if I got a vote, I wouldn't add to the hypocrisy. Let them all in, or no more.

Also, the HOF is an extra honor, not a right. I'm fine admitting that Bonds and others are great players, but that doesn't mean we need to go out of our way to celebrate them as we would be doing if they were elected.

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Originally Posted by Seth Stohs

I've always said I'd be fine with Trammell being in the Hall of Fame AFTER Lou Whitaker gets in... (and Whitaker didn't even get to a 2nd year on the ballot)

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Silly argument. You have a valid argument for Whitaker but Trammell was no doubt one of the top 4 SS's in the league while he played (counting Larkin). I would put him in before Sosa, Palmeiro, Raines and Bagwell and that's not an argument against those guys. I really like Trammell.

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Originally Posted by ericchri

Bonds, Clemens, Bagwell, Biggio, McGwire, Piazza, Raines, Schilling, Lofton, Trammel

I'd probably vote for Palmeiro, Martinez, and Walker as well if allowed more than 10. I could be talked into Sosa and McGriff too. Yeah, I'm a Big Hall guy. I've never really felt Morris was a Hall of Famer, but it wouldn't bother me to see him make it. His fame was probably higher than his actual performance, and it's called the Hall of Fame for a reason, presumably.

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You talk about the justifiably restrictive nature for admission to the Hall- and then push for 15 to go in in one year, including the obvious cheaters? It's a shame that Morris couldn't have juiced up like some of your other favorites so that he could have put up numbers more suitable for your vote.