TwinsDr2021

By my count there is 19 games left before all star break. If nothing changes Ryan, Gray, Lopez and Ober would have 4 starts, and Varland 3. Adding a 6th starter, keeps Lopez at 4 starts (assuming they just add said pitcher to the last spot.), Varland at 3, moves Ryan, Gray and Ober to three starts, and gives the 6th pitcher 3 starts. Normally I would be completely against this idea, but if they just did it going into the AS break, I wouldn't be against it and think it might be a good idea, a bit of rest for 3 of them and a competition for Maeda and Varland to see who get the job coming of the break. IMO, Varland doesn't need to spend any more time in the minors, how does one work on not giving up homers to major league hitters in the minor? I would give him that 5/6/7 inning role where he can pitch multiple innings more often than not so he stays some what stretched out and kind of on a starter type schedule.

Wish you well as well, I think runs allowed also needs to be combined with the amount of innings, and I agree Gray could be in the discussion of being around the 8th best starter in the American league, personally for me is closer to 12th but 12th is still really, really good. I am in the boat that wants one of my best pitchers to pitch more innings which means lesser relief pitchers pitching.

So you changed the topic and projected something on me I never said, ever! He is have a really good season, the twins have gotten quite a bit out of the trade and maybe another draft pick. I also have been pretty happy with Gray this year, could I be more happy of course. Never said I wanted to give Gray away, not even sure how that comes to ones mind, I am not arguing he is a bad pitcher or for that matter even just an average pitcher. He is a good to better than good pitcher this year, just not elite based on the numbers. Not sure how saying that is anti Gray or anti Twin in any way. That would be like somebody saying Miranda is the top rookie of the year candidate last year and me pointing out he probably isn't even in the top 3 and the person responding with you are anti - Miranda and the Twins. I am not arguing about the team philosophies at all I am comparing stats against other pitchers, does Gray or any other pitcher get extra credit for things they haven't done because of the Twins philosophy?

umm, yes you are the one that started the talk about ranking. remember this - "The fact that he is in discussion of the top 4-5 pitchers is amazing. ' "IP isn't a big deal" so the fact that others have in the same amount of starts have basically pitched in two more games in some cases than him doesn't count? In the last 12 games Berrios for example has pitched in 11 more innings than him with a lower ERA, but those extra 11 shouldn't count against Gray (based on his average start it is like Berrios has started two more games in the same period of time) So IP isn't a big deal, K/9 isn't a big deal how about WHIP or Quality starts? But I will add, if somebody said you get one pitcher for 5 innings and no more, Gray would be way high on my list of choices!

Well then those people are just looking at WAR and ERA, because when you actually start comparing numbers, Starts(14 starts, only 5 pitchers have 15) IP (21st), WHIP (23rd), K/9(14th), QS (26th), ERA (5th), he doesn't match up well with other American league starters. Those rankings are just in the American league. I didn't include wins because I don't think they mean a ton, but in his case maybe it should because he doesn't pitch very deep into games and thus not generally part of the decision win or loss, which explains his 4 -1 record.

That was before last night, and somehow actually innings pitched don't seem to matter to some people. They have Cole below him, he has 1 more start, 15 2/3 more innings, ERA of 2.75 and a lower WHIP. So I am going to take that ranking with a grain of salt.

I am not trying to get into the Gray decision, should he have stayed or not. I am going solely on how the heck you finish the last 5 innings of the game, don't blow up your pen for the next night or two. IMO if you are willing to take out a starter after 4, you can't really afford to worry about the score at that time, there is still more than half the game to go. you put a plan together that gives you the best chance at the end of the game, and if the Twins or anybody thinks or expects to for a bullpen to go 5 without giving up a run or a few runs that is crazy thinking. So you put your long or middle guy in and say go give me a couple of innings. at least that is what I would have done. Others can disagree, blame the FO for the options, but if I am the manager I have to work with what I am given, and I can tell you if I was taking Gray out there, it would have NOTHING to do with preventing an injury for one more innings, those kind of excuses are IMO the worst possible excuses.

I think only Twins fans think he is a top 4 or 5 pitcher, he isn't even the top pitcher on his own team. He isn't McClanahan, Cole, Valdez, Eovaldi or Rodriguez. Last 12 starts Pitcher A - 75 1/3 innings, 2.27 ERA Pitcher B - 70 innings, 3.72 ERA Pitcher C - 64 innings, 2.67 ERA Pitcher D - 73 2/3 innings, 2.32 ERA Pitcher E - 71 2/3 innings, 3.01 ERA What order are you taking those pitchers? I am going D, A, E, and tie between B and C (C is Sonny Gray and the others aren't any of the the pitchers I listed above that are better)

My thought is even he goes 2 successfully, you still have 3 innings to go, which means either you using your 3 best relief pitchers in a back to back games or you are bringing in Pagan and Lopez which for first is O'fer on holds opportunities this year, and the other has been worse ,so if you go with the best 3 it will be leaving them very short handed today and possibly tomorrow if they throw a bunch of pitches. IMO you can't go into a Joe Ryan game with your 3 best pitchers unavailable (how many times have pitchers pitched in 3 straight games?), that is unacceptable and Joe Ryan hasn't completed 8 innings yet this year, so at minimum you need two innings from the pen, but Ryan hasn't finished 7 since April 25 and only twice this year, so really you are going to need 3 innings from the pen with your best 3 probably unavailable. IMO, when your bullpen is a short as the Twins, and a starter goes 4, the next guy at a minimum has to give you two innings no matter what and 3 would ideal. Moran wasn't giving the twins 3 innings and it was very unlikely to give you 2 since that has only happened twice this year and both times where in April and I believe with Thielbar healthy.

No need for any other comments this IMO is 💯accurate!

Just to clarify, he had 79 pitches not 97. He had 76 in 5 the game before. Generally speaking Gray isn't efficient with his pitches. and when he is which isn't often he still doesn't go real deep in games.

Agree the problem is bullpen construction, but it is also starter construction, you can't burn the candle at both ends, short starts and short bullpen outings. Not going to complain about last night, didn't see how Gray was doing, but sometimes you have to push starters more when your pen is as shallow as the Twins pen is. There are two guys that are trust worthy? (Duran and Stewart and aren't we all crossing our fingers he can keep this up), Two kind of trust worthy guys (Jax and Thielbar (IR)), and what? Currently they only have Moran (7), Jax(7), Lopez(6) Stewart(5) and Duran (1) on the active that actually have a hold. They basically have 3 mop of guys Winder, De Leon and Pagan. With that type of construction and a starter going 4 the first guy you bring in has to be somebody that you expect at least two and maybe 3 innings from, and that guy isn't your best left handed relief pitcher. You obviously don't bring in Pagan, the three best pitched the last night with low pitch counts so you don't want to use them unless it makes sense, so the choice should have been Winder or De Leon and while I blame the FO for giving him terrible choices, it is his choice on how to play it out and regardless of well Moran pitched it was the wrong choice. Even if he successfully pitches two scoreless innings, it is right back to using Jax, Stewart and Duran (for 3 total innings), thus leaving them unavailable maybe the next two nights, which means Lopez, Pagan, Winder, De Leon, and that is not a good place to be. I mean couldn't they have pitched Winder again and sent him out after the game for Headrick or somebody?

IMO, all these are having a better year so far them him - Eovaldi, Cole, Valdez, Bieber, Gausman, Berrios, McClanahan, Castillo, Ohtani, Ryan, Jon Gray, Rodriguez, so yes maybe if enough guys bow out he will get a spot. The only two stats that makes him look good are ERA (which of course could be/probably would be higher if he was pitching more innings like the other pitchers and WAR, which in his case makes no sense since the team is 7 - 7 in his stars and about the same as Eovali's and he has been a much, much better pitcher this year.

MLB would be way better talking about the fans safety first, it looks bad (and is) that they rest of the stadium personal are out in the elements doing their jobs (Not to mention the thousands of hard working people that have jobs outside)

Are we still pretending he is deserving of the all star game?

P - Johan Santana $3 C - Joe Mauer $5 1B - Justin Morneau $3 2B - Rod Carew $5 SS - Roy Smallley $3 3B - John Castino $1 LF - Shane Mack $3 CF -Cesar Tovar $2 RF - Bruno $3 DH - Jim Thome $3 CL - Jeff Reardon $2

Don't disagree with this but Tyler Wells was a 24 year old starter coming a season with 22 starts and 119 innings (A+ and AA. He was drafted put in the pen that year and moved right back into the rotation. Grace is a relief pitcher that has 31 innings (A and rookie) in 2021, 60 innings in 22 (rookie, A, A+) and likely about that much this year(AA so far). He seems like the type of guy you aggressively promote this year, get him to the majors at the end of the year and make a decision if he is better or they think he will be better than the other 15 relief pitchers on the 40 man.

If some other teams leaves a top 100 20 year old talent (21 in February) that can play the outfield and steal a base for you, the Twins should draft in the rule 5 and worry about how to play the 26 man on the roster at a later time. The Braves would probably pick ERod and he would be just another of the super young prospects to thrive in the majors. They seem to have one of those every year.

My point with Enlow is they can't continue to load the 40 man with mid 20's relief pitchers that they don't trust to pitch. SWR, Winder, Sands, Henriquez, Headrick, Canterino, Balazovic, Alcala. Yes I get they need depth at starter and relief. Lopes Arb 2, Pagan Arb 3, Jax Pre-Arb, Moran Pre-Arb, Duran Pre-Arb, Winder Pre-Arb, Alcala - Pre, Sands Pre, Stewart - Pre They basically have their whole bullpen locked up next year and are going to add more to the 40 man? I believe Martin for sure will be added, do they really have room to add another utility type player in Severino with trading others away. So I agree with your other post, they absolutely are going to have to make some trades this deadline (not so much for helping this year) but for getting their 40 man in shape for this offseason. There is garbage (not all is garbate) on the 40 that could be cleared out Kepler, Garlick, Solano, MAT, Gallo) but they can't replace major league players with minor league players and expect a decent offense.

Keirsey is 26 in AA with only a .840 OPS (That would be an awesome if he was say 22) why would they waste a 40 man spot on a guy not likely to be anything more than an injury replacement? Now, maybe they trade off a Larnach or Wallner and Keirsey gets put on it this year and gets some time in the majors. I agree with Martin, maybe on Enlow because of where he was drafted, and maybe Severino because of how much money was spent. Maybe Carnargo if they believe his future position is catcher, because he is young for a catcher prospect.,

Just to point out Keirsey just turned 26 (76 days younger than Larnach and older than AK and Wallner) and is in AA, I don't consider him a prospect so I wouldn't worry too much about adding him to the 40 man. Funderburk will either be added this year because he is so good or they need him, otherwise there is zero reason to add a 27 year old minor league player to the 40. Same with Williams, all of those players are on the older or way older side for prospects except Rodriguez. My thoughts are only Martin gets protected and that is only because of the Berrios trade, maybe Enlow because of where he was drafted.

I believe the Rays would think he is a problem (this year), since Vidal Brujan is the only guy on the Rays with a lower OPS than Miranda. But you are correct if AK, Lewis, Miranda, Julien, and even Lee were all hitting really well, it wouldn't be a problem (or it would be awesome problem to have) to figure out a how to get all those guys 130 plus games or more, you just have to deal with a bit of defensive limitation occasionally.

Not aimed at just you, but he turns 25 in two weeks and is in the minors. When Hunter was 25 he was 21st in MVP voting, so I wouldn't consider that a comparison at all. Yes, young players do go up and down all the time and become solid major league players, generally when they are 21, 22, 23 (Buxton for example) Miranda was basically 24 when he came up so he isn't going to be afforded the opportunities that (Hunter, Buxton, Polanco, Kepler, Rosario) and a host of others that came up much younger. The FO understands that you are super talented and will give more chances, the older you get the less chances you will be given because some other super talented young guy needs looks as well. When you are 24/25/26 years old you are getting competition from both sides (vets and prospects) it just makes it all that much harder because you have so much less room for error. For example if he didn't play well he was going against Farmer and Lewis.

I really liked Martin in the trade and thought he had some real potential, he turns 25 right around the start of next year, and if by that time he isn't in the majors, he is just another player that will hope to make majors and last a few years as a utility type guy (Gordon for example), maybe and hopefully I am wrong, but guys that age usually aren't given a job with a long leash and told go and figure out, why because there usually is a higher priced vet or a higher rated prospect. (I see Wallner as the example of that) Guys that age need an opening (injury or trade that opens up a spot) and then play so well they take that spot and don't give it up. So good luck Austin as a fan I want him to be awesome and super successful, as a realist I understand that isn't likely.

This is why there is a discussion, because even you, concede in the first 5 posts that maybe he could be playing out there but it is about risk mitigation. Some people just don't give a crap about the risk part because the believe taking the risk and the side effects of this is more important to the teams wins and loses this year then having him DH with these results, and if he gets hurt so be it, didn't we all expect that anyway, add in the dislike for the FO and manager and viola, somebody's hot take. Not saying I agree with that take, but I understand it.