Max Kepler and the Cost of Silence

Here's a recap of the thread for those that don't want to read through it all.

The self-righteous and outraged along with those that agree with them are thoughtful geniuses and our morale compass.

If you do not FULLY agree with them without exception you are an uneducated and ignorant hillbilly and need to be educated on the right or wrong stance so you can fall into place.

No one's closet is clean and I'm sure a lot of posters (including myself) have done things worse in their lives than not vocally condemning police violence.

Here's a recap of the thread for those that don't want to read through it all.

 

The self-righteous and outraged along with those that agree with them are thoughtful geniuses and our morale compass.

 

If you do not FULLY agree with them without exception you are an uneducated and ignorant hillbilly and need to be educated on the right or wrong stance so you can fall into place.

 

No one's closet is clean and I'm sure a lot of posters (including myself) have done things worse in their lives than not vocally condemning police violence.

Can anyone post a link that confirms the incident was racially motivated. If all this is based on unconfirmed assumption, any suggestion of a superior understanding or superior intellect is rather ironic. Taking such a hard position without full confirmation of fact and validation of assumptions is simply not consistent with advanced critical thinking skills or even an good understanding of problem solving practices. Sorry, it's just another example of people without any credentials thinking the problem is what other people don't understand.

Here's a thought that just came to mind.

Can anyone verify that all of Twins Daily's owners and moderators have publicly taken an appropriate stance on this? I would guess they have, but I don't monitor all social media so I can't say for sure. Serious question, no snark.

I guess I don't know if all owners and moderators are white. But honestly, if they are all white, I expect more out of Twins Daily to ensure that we're getting a full spectrum of voices and perspectives to cover and moderate this issue and Twins baseball in general. Not serious statement, 50% snark, 50% humor.

No arguments please. That's hilarious and a freaking genius post 16 pages in. If you don't agree, you're wrong. No tagbacks.

Can anyone post a link that confirms the incident was racially motivated. If all this is based on unconfirmed assumption, any suggestion of a superior understanding or superior intellect is rather ironic. Taking such a hard position without full confirmation of fact and validation of assumptions is simply not consistent with advanced critical thinking skills or even an good understanding of problem solving practices. Sorry, it's just another example of people without any credentials thinking the problem is what other people don't understand.

This. I'm not convinced that it was racially motivated at all. Police brutallity, yes for sure. My hunch is Chauvin would have done the same thing to anyone else at this particular moment. Which brings me to another point. Until people of color, whether they are black, brown, yellow, red or white learn not to abuse alcohol, drugs, tobacco, etc and learn not to break laws like pass funny money and create a public disturbance and then resist arrest their lives will continue to go nowhere fast.

Lol yep! Only I alone get to decide what’s right and what’s wrong in this country.

 

Drew Brees thinks kneeling = disrespecting the flags and troops. His teammates, the people he spends a vast majority of his time with, used kneeling to bring awareness to police brutality on black people.

 

He took the symbol BLM used to peacefully protest and made it about himself and his beliefs. The timing of his comments are bad. His comments were insensitive and dismissive of what’s going on in the world.

I read that Brees took a knee in protest before the national anthem at some point. Seems to me that is a germane point. I think it is possible to respect the flag and not condone police violence against people of color (any color).

The owners are white. I have black children, which has led to years of listening, reading, and a change of my overall worldview, as I no longer think of things in my own best interest, but instead the interests of my childeren so I choose to listen to the people who have lived the live experiences most closely related to that what my children can expect as they grow up.

 

For those of you who are parents, that probably helps you understand more than a little bit of my anger over this issue.

I don’t think you have to be a parent of black children to feel anger over this issue, but I understand what you mean, and why you are particularly angry.

The owners are white...are the moderators also? But also, that was the half humor question.

What about the serious question? Have you verified that all of your owners and moderators met the standard that was asked of Kepler?

The owners are white. I have black children, which has led to years of listening, reading, and a change of my overall worldview, as I no longer think of things in my own best interest, but instead the interests of my childeren so I choose to listen to the people who have lived the live experiences most closely related to that what my children can expect as they grow up.

 

For those of you who are parents, that probably helps you understand more than a little bit of my anger over this issue.

Brock the only people who don't understand your anger would be sociopathic.  Your children have every right to grow up safe and not have to fear the police.  You (and I and the owners and whoever else) have every right to be angry

This. I'm not convinced that it was racially motivated at all. Police brutallity, yes for sure. My hunch is Chauvin would have done the same thing to anyone else at this particular moment. Which brings me to another point. Until people of color, whether they are black, brown, yellow, red or white learn not to abuse alcohol, drugs, tobacco, etc and learn not to break laws like pass funny money and create a public disturbance and then resist arrest their lives will continue to go nowhere fast.

So I was going to then say that Brock's anger towards us was misplaced but sweetmusicviola16 effed that up.  Good job! I would suggest you think about changing your name to delmonyoung21 (there are other twins that probably effed up games but Delmon''s the only one who comes to mind)

No sweetmusic the fact that you are not convinced is a tragedy.The officers at no time were in danger because Floyd was cuffed .  If George Floyd had been 5'7 150 lbs white guy he would not be dead. Chauvin kept his knee on Floyd's throat after he was unconscious. He knew if he did it long enough Floyd would be dead. If Floyd had been me, a woman or an old asian man, he would be alive right now.  George Floyd was black and huge and Chauvin was going to put him in his place. 

Excluding the aforementioned sweetmusic I think your anger towards a lot of us is misplaced.  

i think if the owners had asked the TD community to donate the amount of what we'd spend on a game, I think with the marketing skills of the owners and the rabid loyalty a lot of your readers have for Twins Daily, you guys could have raised a lot of money to help rebuild Minneapolis. I think we would have surprised you and the rest of the owners. maybe a lot of us might be better than you give us credit for.

victim blaming is really bad look. Please don’t post this type of thing.

I could really care less what I "look like". Victim blaming? How about people start to take responsibility for their actions. Floyd losing his life was wrong. Chauvin committed an errounious act. But Floyd was drunk, high, passing bad cash and resisting arrest. He obviously hadn't learned. This is the guy who in 2009 held a gun in the abdomen of a preganant woman during a break in. I'm not holding this guy up as a martyr or a hero. If you don't like my opinion delete them then. 

Per arrest, more whites are killed by police than blacks.

There may be systemic bias in law enforcement, but there's no empirical evidence that it extends to the use of deadly force. It's just a fiction that Americans are now required to accept or be denounced, fired from their jobs, etc.

Nobody gets it right all the time but we at least try and hopefully own up to those times we’re wrong.

So, they don’t get an article written about them? They are forgiven, with the hope that they’ll do their best and admit when they are wrong?

You don’t need to answer. You should, because you’re smart enough to know that you just defended a group of people with the exact logic I and others have been arguing for Kepler and those who are less vocal than you wish, but you don’t need to.

This is my last post. I wasn’t going to reply anymore but the post from another commenter about an opinion not mattering because it was wrong was too asinine to let slide. I’m pretty sure it has been established that I’m allowed to call a comment asinine.

I admire your passion, and Nick’s. I really do. But I think it’s misapplied. That’s just me.

Be well, everyone. Do your best.

Scott Zilka

What's the old cliche? Don't meet your heros you'll only be disappointed? That was my thought when all this came out about Kepler.

Or maybe understand that your heroes are also only human.

 

And I still <3 Rosie and always will! No matter what!

Yeah, cause I'm pretty, pretty sure we don't want to hear Rosario's thoughts on gay marriage.

 

I hope your understanding is that I'm not angry at everyone, but at the fact that people not only ignore the issue - which I welcome discussion over - but that there is open resistance to my own children living a life free of fear and agression, which is what we want for all our children.

It wasn't my understanding at all.  When i heard "i'm mad as hell at a lot of you" I lumped myself in with the ones you were angry with. I've grown accustomed to really good writing on this site so I took you at your word and took exception to it.

 

Asking for money is nice but it doesn't fix the actual problem, which Nick addressed. The problem is that we, as white people, simply don't care enough. Caring and fighting against this issue is worth more than either I or you could afford. Fighting against this is what causes change for literally millions of Americans.

I would never suggest that Twins Daily raising money would end racism. But I wouldn't go to the hundreds of people that brought thousands of meal kits to Sanford Middle school that this was a drop in the bucket either. Was it insignificant in the larger scheme? You would be correct in saying that but you wouldn't be right. I would imagine that many of the people who brought food left feeling good, they had done their part and now let's get back to our normal lives. But there were a few that that thought for the first time "I'd like to do more".  That's small but it's progress.

 

What needs to change is our attitude; that black people deserve to be able to do the same things white people do every day and that attitude change will take work. Not financial donations, but introspection about who we are as white Americans and how we've failed as a culture. It's a hard, ugly look. It hurts a lot.

100% agree

But I believe that we measure large victories by the sum of our small victories. Rarely do we have the benefit of a radical and sweeping change in a free society. 

I took a class when I was getting my master's in special ed on diversity and racial disparity. The professor had us take a test that would measure our level of racism. My test score was ok not great. But I remember one of the results of the test said that I was more comfortable around white people than I was around black people. when I told the professor that I didn't think I agreed with the result, he said "I get it Jim, my result told me I was more comfortable around white people too". My professor was a black man active in Black Lives Matter. 

What's my point? My professor used that as a point  of connection between he and I to help open my eyes. He taught the class with empathy and respect with the hope that we would see the areas that we needed to change and the areas we could help change when we were teaching. It worked.

 

But I know, based on the demographics, that our site's audience is predominately white, and relatively affluent. We are the voices needed most in this fight.

So while I have my disagreements with Nick on things he stated subsequently, I agree with this statement.  The problem is that many people don't know how to be a voice. Most people won't be able to figure it out on their own.  

So my suggestion was probably poorly presented. The end result of getting the TD community involved in helping is not to raise money and end racism. The suggestion was to help affect the community you built and empower that community. And like Sanford, many might participate and think "well that was cool! Did my part now what's on Netflix?" But a small few may see it as a first step. 

Anyway it was just an idea

As a white, slightly affluent and fat (I know Nick inferred fat I KNOW IT!!) reader, I personally want to help but I'm not sure how. I will say marching in a protest scares the s**t out of me with this pandemic. I've been praying (not thoughts and prayers crap actual praying). 

I have thoughts on the rest of your post Brock but it's late.  I'll say a prayer for your kids if that's ok with you.

Interesting!  Can you show me this research, if you have it handy?  I have not seen anything that shows that longer and louder protests can lead to changing minds, and would love to read about it!  

 

What I HAVE seen is that strong protests can lead to an energized base of the protesters, such that those people are more likely to vote in the upcoming election.  Or, to put it differently, protests that take extreme action and/or include inflammatory rhetoric are not shown to change anyone's mind, but they DO tend to make those people that already agreed with the protests more likely to make a difference in the next election(s) by voting in relatively greater amounts.  Basically, let's say that 50% of people agreed with the views of the protests a week ago, 20% were undecided, and 30% were opposed (totally random numbers).  As a result of the protests using extreme tactics such as blocking I-35 and involving hate rhetoric toward cops, those 20% are overwhelmingly estranged from the movement.  However, the next election in November may STILL be successful from the protests, as those 50% will overwhelmingly vote (whereas otherwise maybe only half of those people would have voted), such that the election is swung.  Was this the kind of study that you were referring to?

 

Frankly, this all makes sense to me.  This is how the Tea Party hijacked the GOP for a good decade; by energizing their faction via extremely strong and vocal protests.  That said, I wasn't looking to address the efficacy of protesting when it comes to energizing preexisting supporters of an idea, as that wasn't the purported desire of Nick.  My understanding is that Nick was doing what he was doing for the primary and/or sole purpose of convincing people that currently believed and/or acted differently than he did.  And I thought it was important for him to know that, if convincing people to think/act differently was his aim, that he could not be going about it in a worse way.  

 

TLDR: My understanding is that dramatic protests are great for energizing people that already believe a thing such that those people are more likely to sway elections, and dramatic protests are poor at changing minds (such that Nick's stated actions were poorly tailored to fulfill Nick's stated desires), but I would love to read anything that refutes and/or challenges that understanding.

That was a couple years ago protests that I looked that up