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    Letting Sonny Gray Walk Started the Twins’ Downward Spiral

    Minnesota’s ace helped deliver a playoff breakthrough in 2023, but ownership’s decision to cut payroll sped his departure to St. Louis. The Twins have been paying the price ever since.

    Cody Christie
    Image courtesy of Matt Blewett-Imagn Images

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    The Minnesota Twins made a choice after the 2023 season, and it continues to echo through Target Field. They let Sonny Gray, their All-Star starter, walk away in free agency. The move was tied to an ownership-driven payroll cut, and perhaps was inevitable even without one, but the fallout is undeniable. Two years later, as the team collapses for the second straight season, the absence of Gray feels like the start of a downward spiral.

    Joe Ryan recently spoke of Gray’s impact in an interview with the Minnesota Star Tribune.

    “I wish Sonny [Gray] was still here,” Ryan said. “I feel like things would be different if he was.”

    Gray’s Role in the 2023 Breakthrough
    The 2023 season was magical for the Twins. With Gray at the front of the rotation, the team captured its first playoff series victory in more than two decades, ending the infamous 18-game postseason losing streak. Gray gave Minnesota not just innings, but credibility. His presence at the top of the staff allowed the rest of the rotation to settle into roles where they could succeed.

    More than numbers, though, he provided a sense of calm. Young arms like Ryan and Bailey Ober leaned on him for guidance. When Pablo López needed a co-anchor, Gray was there. For a franchise desperate for October relevance, Gray was the one who steadied the ship.

    A Payroll-Driven Exit
    But after that season, the story changed. The front office, working under strict payroll directives from ownership, chose not to match the market rate for Gray. Few expected the Twins to be in the conversation for Gray, anyway, but that’s where the Twins had the opportunity to change the narrative. He signed a three-year contract that guarantees him $75 million with the St. Louis Cardinals, leaving the Twins to patch together a rotation without their proven leader.

    The decision seemed shortsighted even at the time, but hindsight has made it glaringly apparent. The Twins went from a playoff-caliber rotation to a patchwork group that has dealt with injuries, inconsistency, and the absence of a true ace.

    “In my opinion, that goes down as the biggest mistake we have made since I’ve been here,” said Ryan. “He wanted to come back. He loved it here.”

    St. Louis Performance
    Gray was never going to match his 2023 performance as he continued to age. In 2024, he posted a 107 ERA+, a 1.09 WHIP, and struck out over 200 batters for only the second time in his career. He anchored the Cardinals staff, leading them back into contention. Even as he moved into his mid-30s, he remained one of the most effective pitchers in the National League.

    In 2025, Father Time has started to rear his ugly head. Gray has a sub-100 ERA+ for the first time since 2018, but he continues to control the strike zone, with a sparkling 5.2% walk rate. The Cardinals were hoping to be contenders during his tenure, but that has yet to materialize. Still, Gray was known for more than his on-field performance with the Twins. 

    Leadership Lost
    For Ryan, the loss of Gray goes beyond innings pitched.

    “There were a lot of avenues we could have gone down, but if we had re-signed Sonny, I can guarantee we would have been in the playoffs last year, and we’d probably be in a better spot this year,” Ryan said. “He was a top-notch guy, a great pitcher, incredible competitor, great guy in the clubhouse. I learned so much from him. We missed him last year.”

    That leadership void has been glaring. Younger pitchers who once leaned on Gray have been asked to figure things out on their own. Without him, the rotation has lacked the veteran presence that can make all the difference in a long season.

    What Could Have Been: A Different Offseason Path
    Imagine a different scenario. The Twins bring Gray back after 2023, pairing him again with López at the top of the rotation. That duo provides a one-two punch that rivals almost any staff in the American League. Ryan slides comfortably into a mid-rotation role, while Ober and Chris Paddack round things out. Suddenly, Minnesota has depth, hierarchy, and stability.

    There’s no way of knowing how Gray would have performed, had he returned to Minnesota. However, the message from ownership to the team could have been “we believe in this roster and want to win.” The Twins could have entered both 2024 and 2025 with one of the most stable staffs in baseball. The offense wouldn’t have felt as much pressure to carry the load, and the team’s playoff window could have stayed wide open.

    Instead, the decision to cut payroll closed that window. The ripple effects are still being felt today, and the franchise continues to wrestle with the fallout of a move that looks worse with each passing season.

    The Big Picture: Then vs. Now
    At the time, some fans understood the decision. Gray was entering his mid-30s, and his free-agent price tag carried risk. The Twins had López signed long-term, and the belief was that Ryan and Ober were ready to take another step forward. Cutting payroll was frustrating, but the front office framed it as a chance to stay flexible and avoid long-term mistakes. They were willing (perhaps even eager) to bet on the pipeline of homegrown starting pitching they have so often emphasized.

    Now, with two seasons of evidence, the perception has changed. The “risk” that came with Gray has been outweighed by what he could have meant to the Twins, especially from a leadership perspective. Meanwhile, Twins starters have failed to live up to expectations, watching their rotation depth erode and their playoff hopes dim.

    What once looked like a reasonable gamble has transformed into the defining mistake of this era. This choice undermined the team’s hard-earned progress and put the franchise on a significantly different trajectory.


    Should the Twins have signed Gray to an extension? Was it the team’s biggest mistake in recent years? Leave a comment and start the discussion.

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    I think that Ryan's comments need to be looked at in the context of this dumpster fire of a season. Ryan is a competitor and he knows he would be in high demand to pitch for a contender. The next 2 seasons are his age 30 and 31 years so it's not like he's a fresh faced 25 year old with his whole career in front of him. He's in the prime of his career pitching for a mediocre team that just got measurably worse at the deadline. I'm not surprised he might want out. I suspect anyone any good on the Twins is at least wondering if the grass might be greener elsewhere. 

    I think Ryan wants to pitch on a team where the games matter and the playoffs are a real possibility, if not a likelihood. That ain't your 2025 Minnesota Twins and probably isn't the 2026 version unless a lot of ifs pan out in the very near future. I want the team to keep him at least until the 2026 trade deadline if only to keep us competitive and because deadline trades tend to get you better prospects back, but I wouldn't be surprised if his agent pushes for a trade this off season. It's hard to get good players to want to stay on bad teams. That doesn't make Ryan a bad guy, It just makes him a competitive guy who wants to be in a position to succeed. 

    7 hours ago, old nurse said:

    Aren’t you someone on a message board. Why should anyone then believe your statement?

    It was a legitimate concern of whom to believe. If Joe Ryan said that Sonny wanted to stay in Minneapolis, and if Joe Ryan is to be believed, then there is your answer.

    1 hour ago, LA VIkes Fan said:

    I think that Ryan's comments need to be looked at in the context of this dumpster fire of a season. Ryan is a competitor and he knows he would be in high demand to pitch for a contender. The next 2 seasons are his age 30 and 31 years so it's not like he's a fresh faced 25 year old with his whole career in front of him. He's in the prime of his career pitching for a mediocre team that just got measurably worse at the deadline. I'm not surprised he might want out. I suspect anyone any good on the Twins is at least wondering if the grass might be greener elsewhere. 

    I think Ryan wants to pitch on a team where the games matter and the playoffs are a real possibility, if not a likelihood. That ain't your 2025 Minnesota Twins and probably isn't the 2026 version unless a lot of ifs pan out in the very near future. I want the team to keep him at least until the 2026 trade deadline if only to keep us competitive and because deadline trades tend to get you better prospects back, but I wouldn't be surprised if his agent pushes for a trade this off season. It's hard to get good players to want to stay on bad teams. That doesn't make Ryan a bad guy, It just makes him a competitive guy who wants to be in a position to succeed. 

    I absolutely appreciate Ryan's passion to want to win. His passion and determination is what also holds him back, somewhat, as he sometimes lets bad plays and bad calls affect him on the mound. But I do think he's settled down and learned to better deal with that, overcome, and be his normal self.

    His comments at the deadline were NOT anti-Twins. I believe his comments were basically "it's exciting to think about, but I'd like to win here".

    The Twins NOT trading him or Lopez and adding a BAT, probably at 1B, and the number of great prospects ready to debut, and an actual EXTENSION offer would make him very happy to stick around, IMO.

    Over and over I've stated how the team could ADD a BAT, probably at 1B and leave DH open. Then add a couple 40 man man fliers, plus some MILB contract fliers, in addition to internal options, and rebuild at least a competent BP.

    And without going crazy, they could have a payroll $10M less than last season.

    NOT what I WANT, but you just might have a competive team for a payroll WAY below league average. 

    EXPECTED ML PAYROLL AVG for 2026 is around $180M. That leaves a TON OF ROOM to sign Ryan for an extension...maybe 3yrs...and Jeffers for 2 additional years. And those extensions wouldn't even take place until 2027.

    This is not only VIABLE, but it still potentially keeps the Twins payroll well below the 2027 average. 

    But then again, we're talking about a 3rd generation of billionaires who have little clue what they're actually doing. They've already kissed away 1/3 of the organizations actual worth just to eliminate their borrowed debt.

    I have to wonder, if you were part of the new minority owners who just paid the Pohlads somewhere between $400-500M, would you be content to stroke your belly and just wait for a payout 10yrs from now?

    Or would you be stamping your fist at the table wondering WTF is going on in regards to where my $ is being spent? Why are the stands virtually empty right now? How are you going to increase the value of my new investment?

    Just me as a lower middle class American. But even as a billionaire, I still think I'd like to know where my money is going. 

    1 hour ago, tarheeltwinsfan said:

    It was a legitimate concern of whom to believe. If Joe Ryan said that Sonny wanted to stay in Minneapolis, and if Joe Ryan is to be believed, then there is your answer.

    If you are questioning the veracity of what somebody else says like the post I responded to, the perhaps the poster should include where he found the quote because after all he was just another person on the Internet 

    7 hours ago, Schmoeman5 said:

    So where is the next 1b 2b 3b SS C in this system thats so strong. I'll give you the OF .may be covered. Maybe. No matter how highly ranked. That is all just speculation and hope. Until proven otherwise 

    The whole prospects are just prospects ignores that 80% of WAR comes from prospects in all of the most successful organizations with average or below average revenue.   I just don't understand how hoping for the only viable avenue to success is misguided.

    3 hours ago, Launch Angle said:

    What a dumb take. 18/mil for one year vs 25 per year for 3. Nobody in their right mind would agree to that even if they really wanted to stay.

    The dumb take is a team that had holes in the outfield and first base was Sonny Gray away from being competitive. 

    3 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

    And 80 percent of percentages you see on the internet are made up on the spot.

    I have compiled the data from literally every 90+ win team since the turn of the century.  With all of the very adamant positions about these things posted on this site, I was curious to know what has actually produced results.

    12 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

    The whole prospects are just prospects ignores that 80% of WAR comes from prospects in all of the most successful organizations with average or below average revenue.   I just don't understand how hoping for the only viable avenue to success is misguided.

    Show me 1 team where 80% of their WAR is attributed to prospects. 

    1 minute ago, Schmoeman5 said:

    Show me 1 team where 80% of their WAR is attributed to prospects. 

    Players acquired as prospects.  We need to define what is unproven.  When I compiled this date, I defined a prospect as a player that have never produced 1.5 WAR is a season and an established player as a player that had produced 1.5 WAR in a season.  That might not be what people ask for the organization to go out an get but I wanted to be consistent.  The table below is for all of the top 7 Guardians teams in the past couple decades.   Add together Drafted / Intl & AaP (acquired as Prospect)  In Cleveland's case, in aggregate, 90% came from players acquired as prospects.

    7  Cleveland Guardians WINS Drafted Intl AaP Trade FA  
    100%  Cleveland 2017 102 24.3% 19.3% 44.3% 4.3% 7.8%  
    100%  Cleveland 2007 96 30.5% 38.2% 31.3% 0.0% 0.0%  
    100%  Cleveland 2016 94 33.1% 22.7% 44.2% 0.0% 0.0%  
    100%  Cleveland 2019 93 34.0% 17.8% 44.1% 4.0% 0.0%  
    100%  Cleveland 2005 93 7.5% 21.8% 51.4% 2.5% 16.8%  
    100%  Cleveland 2022 92 34.2% 19.7% 46.2% 0.0% 0.0%  
    100%  Cleveland 2013 92 14.9% 0.0% 50.1% 10.2% 24.8%  
      Guardians Total 94.57 25.5% 19.9% 44.5% 3.0% 7.1%  
    7 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

    Players acquired as prospects.  We need to define what is unproven.  When I compiled this date, I defined a prospect as a player that have never produced 1.5 WAR is a season and an established player as a player that had produced 1.5 WAR in a season.  That might not be what people ask for the organization to go out an get but I wanted to be consistent.  The table below is for all of the top 7 Guardians teams in the past couple decades.   Add together Drafted / Intl & AaP (acquired as Prospect)  In Cleveland's case, in aggregate, 90% came from players acquired as prospects.

    7  Cleveland Guardians WINS Drafted Intl AaP Trade FA  
    100%  Cleveland 2017 102 24.3% 19.3% 44.3% 4.3% 7.8%  
    100%  Cleveland 2007 96 30.5% 38.2% 31.3% 0.0% 0.0%  
    100%  Cleveland 2016 94 33.1% 22.7% 44.2% 0.0% 0.0%  
    100%  Cleveland 2019 93 34.0% 17.8% 44.1% 4.0% 0.0%  
    100%  Cleveland 2005 93 7.5% 21.8% 51.4% 2.5% 16.8%  
    100%  Cleveland 2022 92 34.2% 19.7% 46.2% 0.0% 0.0%  
    100%  Cleveland 2013 92 14.9% 0.0% 50.1% 10.2% 24.8%  
      Guardians Total 94.57 25.5% 19.9% 44.5% 3.0% 7.1%  

    Really? Thats how you justify your comment which you pull out 10 times a year. Your statement implies that prospects like Keaschal who started the year in milb account for 80% of a teams WAR because they're small or mid market teams that can't afford free agents. So when the Twins acquired Joe Ryan as a prospect you can count his WAR for his 1st season. Thats it. You're counting every year after that when the prospect status no longer applies

    9 hours ago, Schmoeman5 said:

    Really? Thats how you justify your comment which you pull out 10 times a year. Your statement implies that prospects like Keaschal who started the year in milb account for 80% of a teams WAR because they're small or mid market teams that can't afford free agents. So when the Twins acquired Joe Ryan as a prospect you can count his WAR for his 1st season. Thats it. You're counting every year after that when the prospect status no longer applies

    Yes, really.  You are looking quite literally at how much is produced by rookies which has very little value in a discussion about how contending teams were built.  I am looking at how players were acquired to determine which acquisition methods most impact the success of contending teams.   For example, players on the current Tigers team that will produce 1.5 WAR or more this year are listed below.  86% of their WAR is from players that were drafted or acquired as prospects.  This demonstrates the dependence of average revenue or below average teams have on drafted players or prospects acquired in trade like Joe Ryan.  Yes, they are prospects and many fail but the premise we should not rely on them defies logic given success is dependent upon developing them.  That's the point.  History is very clear that free agency and acquiring established players plays a much smaller role in success.   

        2025 Tigers   Acquired WAR  
               
      Riley Greene   Drafted 3.0  
      Zach McKinstry   AaP 3.2  
      Gleyber Torres   FA 2.4  
      Dillon Dingler   Drafted 3.7  
      Spencer Torkelson   Drafted 2.1  
      Wenceel Perez   Intl 1.9  
      Colt Keith   Drafted 1.4  
      Kerry Carpenter   Drafted 1.5  
                  
      Tarik Skubal   Drafted 6.5  
      Jack Flaherty   FA 2.2  
      Casey Mize   Drafted 1.9  
      Reese Olson   AaP 1.4  
      Will Vest   Drafted 1.4  
               
       Acquired by:        
       Drafted   8 66.0%  
       International Draft   1 5.8%  
       Acquired as Prospect   2 14.1%  
       Trade for Proven   0 0.0%  
       Free Agent   2 14.1%  
               

     

    10 hours ago, old nurse said:

    If you are questioning the veracity of what somebody else says like the post I responded to, the perhaps the poster should include where he found the quote because after all he was just another person on the Internet 

    I understand your point.  Thanks for clarifying. 

    20 hours ago, Nashvilletwin said:

    Sonny never wanted to stay here.  He couldn’t wait to get out of Dodge. He wasn’t overly fond of Rocco.  Couldn’t see a future for him personally (i.e. professionally and/or financially) or team wise by staying.  Smart guy to get out while the getting was good.

    I think that's an accurate assessment. Gray never seemed content as a Twin and I'm sure he didn't hesitate one bit when a better offer came around. Sure, he was a good pitcher for us. I have no idea if he was such a positive or influential voice in the clubhouse, as Ryan stated, but I really don't think losing Gray suddenly caused the Twins to descend into some sort of downward spiral. Too many other factors contributed to that, and losing Sonny Gray would not be high on the list of regrets. 

    22 hours ago, GNess said:

    You get what you pay for and you don't get what you don't pay for. The Twins seem to emphasize the latter. 

    Attendance in 2023 would say that even with a higher payroll ad a competitive team, the fans did not come out, so indeed the fas are getting what they paid for 

    Gray is in the second year of a three year contract. He was worth it last year, not earning his money this year. Next year he is getting $35 million with a $5 million player option in 27.  The Cardinals would love to unload him, but who would take him at that price?  If the Twins had signed him, his contract would be a bigger albatross than Correa's was.

    3 hours ago, Major League Ready said:

    Yes, really.  You are looking quite literally at how much is produced by rookies which has very little value in a discussion about how contending teams were built.  I am looking at how players were acquired to determine which acquisition methods most impact the success of contending teams.   For example, players on the current Tigers team that will produce 1.5 WAR or more this year are listed below.  86% of their WAR is from players that were drafted or acquired as prospects.  This demonstrates the dependence of average revenue or below average teams have on drafted players or prospects acquired in trade like Joe Ryan.  Yes, they are prospects and many fail but the premise we should not rely on them defies logic given success is dependent upon developing them.  That's the point.  History is very clear that free agency and acquiring established players plays a much smaller role in success.   

        2025 Tigers   Acquired WAR  
               
      Riley Greene   Drafted 3.0  
      Zach McKinstry   AaP 3.2  
      Gleyber Torres   FA 2.4  
      Dillon Dingler   Drafted 3.7  
      Spencer Torkelson   Drafted 2.1  
      Wenceel Perez   Intl 1.9  
      Colt Keith   Drafted 1.4  
      Kerry Carpenter   Drafted 1.5  
                  
      Tarik Skubal   Drafted 6.5  
      Jack Flaherty   FA 2.2  
      Casey Mize   Drafted 1.9  
      Reese Olson   AaP 1.4  
      Will Vest   Drafted 1.4  
               
       Acquired by:        
       Drafted   8 66.0%  
       International Draft   1 5.8%  
       Acquired as Prospect   2 14.1%  
       Trade for Proven   0 0.0%  
       Free Agent   2 14.1%  
               

     

    BS. Every team has players that they developed. Agree that FA make up a smaller segment of WAR on a given team. But thats not what you were implying. Let me ask. Are you a lawyer or a politician?

    There's a lot of justification with convincing stat lines and dollar signs.  But I agree with Joe Ryan.

    It's not about stats.  It's about culture.  Most likely, nearly all of us have spent time on teams of one form or another, and leadership is a key component.  Sonny Gray may have been an a-hole at times, but he was a true battler and a leader.  (And #2 in CY voting the year he walked).  The part of the headline of this article hits the nail right on the head-- It did begin the downward spiral, because no sooner did we finally win a playoff series (2 games- but who cares?), and have a dependable staff ace, than that silver-spoon, tone-deaf, cake-eater joe pohlad tells the fans that ownership basically doesn't give a 💩 about winning, or the fans.  They care only for their  pocket book.  

    The pohlads have destroyed any fan connection or interest for years to come, and it most definitely started with that p*ssant joe pohlad's Sonny Gray decision.  

    Nothing in the history of the Twins would lead any of us to believe that Sonny Gray was going to be with the Twins for the 2024 season.  $75 million for a pitcher like Gray at his age would have been a bad investment.  Joe Ryan is a bit younger, but he will be entering his age 30 season in 2026.  Whether Ryan is discouraged or distracted, he hasn’t pitched effectively since the trade deadline.  I was in Kansas City to witness the first inning shellacking he received.  At this point, I don’t think it’s a wise investment to sign Ryan to a 6 year contract for $180-$200 million dollars.  I would trade him to Boston for Jarren Duran.  I might throw in SWR to get Payton Tolle back in return.  Duran and Keaschall at the top of the batting order will give the Twins a couple of reliable catalyst’s to make for a more consistent offense.  Make Wallner part of a deal to bring back a young MLB catcher. The Twins probably aren’t contenders next year.  It’s probably best to deal Ryan at his highest value.

    16 hours ago, DocBauer said:

    I absolutely appreciate Ryan's passion to want to win. His passion and determination is what also holds him back, somewhat, as he sometimes lets bad plays and bad calls affect him on the mound. But I do think he's settled down and learned to better deal with that, overcome, and be his normal self.

    His comments at the deadline were NOT anti-Twins. I believe his comments were basically "it's exciting to think about, but I'd like to win here".

    The Twins NOT trading him or Lopez and adding a BAT, probably at 1B, and the number of great prospects ready to debut, and an actual EXTENSION offer would make him very happy to stick around, IMO.

    Over and over I've stated how the team could ADD a BAT, probably at 1B and leave DH open. Then add a couple 40 man man fliers, plus some MILB contract fliers, in addition to internal options, and rebuild at least a competent BP.

    And without going crazy, they could have a payroll $10M less than last season.

    NOT what I WANT, but you just might have a competive team for a payroll WAY below league average. 

    EXPECTED ML PAYROLL AVG for 2026 is around $180M. That leaves a TON OF ROOM to sign Ryan for an extension...maybe 3yrs...and Jeffers for 2 additional years. And those extensions wouldn't even take place until 2027.

    This is not only VIABLE, but it still potentially keeps the Twins payroll well below the 2027 average. 

    But then again, we're talking about a 3rd generation of billionaires who have little clue what they're actually doing. They've already kissed away 1/3 of the organizations actual worth just to eliminate their borrowed debt.

    I have to wonder, if you were part of the new minority owners who just paid the Pohlads somewhere between $400-500M, would you be content to stroke your belly and just wait for a payout 10yrs from now?

    Or would you be stamping your fist at the table wondering WTF is going on in regards to where my $ is being spent? Why are the stands virtually empty right now? How are you going to increase the value of my new investment?

    Just me as a lower middle class American. But even as a billionaire, I still think I'd like to know where my money is going. 

    Well put. I think Ryan and others want to be in a place where they can win. They would just as soon stay in MN; it's what they know, where they're known, and where they and their families are comfortable. But they don't want to stay if the team isn't going to try to get better. I don't think guys like Ryan, Jeffers and Ober will sign extensions unless they think the team will be competitive at least for the playoffs. 

    That's the rub. When will this team be better? Are Keaschall and Martin for real? Will Wallner or Larnach take that next step forward to be a quality middle of the order bat? Will the FO be given the resources to get a 1B or rebuild the bullpen this off season?  Lots of questions. I don't think the good players ae going to re-sign in MN without some answers.   

    4 hours ago, Schmoeman5 said:

    BS. Every team has players that they developed. Agree that FA make up a smaller segment of WAR on a given team. But thats not what you were implying. Let me ask. Are you a lawyer or a politician?

    I am not implying anything.  I am supplying factual data that took me about 30 hours to put together as to how teams acquired the players that are producing on winning teams.  They can draft them, trade for established players, trade for prospects or get them in free agency.  I took the time to get the data because of instances just like this one.  If you don't like the facts, ignore them if it makes you feel better.

    Agreed. Does anyone know the stats on talent acquisition overall? I think it might vary team to team but I would guess that most teams outside of the big markets acquire most of their roster through the draft or acquiring prospects before they reach the Majors. I live in LA and you would expect that they are one of the highest FA based teams. Their current roster is roughly 60% guys that previously played for other MLB teams, 11 of whom are free agents signings who were successful at other teams or 42% of the roster. The other 18% were traded for after they had their MLB debuts or signed as minor league free agents after being released, depending on how you count the 2 guys from Japan (I counted them as MLB free agent signings). The MLB free agent signees are their best players so the WAR is likely higher. By contrast, Detroit's WAR is 85% from draftees or prospect acquisitions. That shows the contrast and suggests to me that good mid or smaller market teams are the result of developing draftees and/or trading for and developing prospects. That fits with the idea that the best free agents go to the highest revenue and thus highest paying teams. I don't have the full data set though and it would be interesting. 

    3 hours ago, LA VIkes Fan said:

    Agreed. Does anyone know the stats on talent acquisition overall? I think it might vary team to team but I would guess that most teams outside of the big markets acquire most of their roster through the draft or acquiring prospects before they reach the Majors. I live in LA and you would expect that they are one of the highest FA based teams. Their current roster is roughly 60% guys that previously played for other MLB teams, 11 of whom are free agents signings who were successful at other teams or 42% of the roster. The other 18% were traded for after they had their MLB debuts or signed as minor league free agents after being released, depending on how you count the 2 guys from Japan (I counted them as MLB free agent signings). The MLB free agent signees are their best players so the WAR is likely higher. By contrast, Detroit's WAR is 85% from draftees or prospect acquisitions. That shows the contrast and suggests to me that good mid or smaller market teams are the result of developing draftees and/or trading for and developing prospects. That fits with the idea that the best free agents go to the highest revenue and thus highest paying teams. I don't have the full data set though and it would be interesting. 

    I didn't collect every team because that would have been an enormous task and I was only interested in how winning teams were built when revenue was similar or less than the Twins.  I was also interested in how they acquired their productive players as opposed to all players.  Therefore, I collected the data for teams in the bottom half of revenue win 90 plus wins and I only included position players that produced 1.5 WAR and RPs with 1.2 WAR.  So, my focus was pretty specific.

    The 80% is an average but there has been a few teams that produced 20-30% from free agency, including the Twins.  The 2019 Twins stand out with 30% coming from free agents.  If you look into that detail for all of these teams, about a third of them are medium priced free agents that performed exceptionally well and most of them are modest priced free agents that put up 1.5-3 WAR.  

    57 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

    I didn't collect every team because that would have been that would have been an enormous task and I was only interested in how winning teams were built when revenue was similar or less than the Twins.  I was also interested in how they acquired their productive players as opposed to all players.  Therefore, I collected the data for teams in the bottom half of revenue win 90 plus wins and I only included position players that produced 1.5 WAR and RPs with 1.2 WAR.  So, my focus was pretty specific.

    The 80% is an average but there has been a few teams that produced 20-30% from free agency, including the Twins.  The 2019 Twins stand out with 30% coming from free agents.  If you look into that detail for all of these teams, about a third of them are medium priced free agents that performed exceptionally well and most of them are modest priced free agents that put up 1.5-3 WAR.  

    Thanks. That all makes sense to me. It's interesting that on the 2025 Twins, the WAR leaders are Buxton at 4.7 to date (draftee), Ryan at 3.4 (traded for as prospect), Jeffers at 1.9 (draftee), Lopez 1.6 (traded for after MLB debut), Keaschall at 1.6 (draftee)., Wallner at 1.3 (draftee), Matthews at 1.2 (draftee), and Lewis at 1.1 (draftee). That's it for guys over 1 that are still with the team. Bader had 2.0 before being traded, Jax 1.5, Duran 1.2, Paddack 1.2, Castro 1.1, and Correa 1.0 so we traded most of the guys who we didn't develop. Of the 9 guys we still have that have WAR to date over 1, 7 were draftees, 1 traded for as a prospect, and only 1 traded for after establishing himself in Bigs. No free agents and really one one if we count the guys who were here but got traded away - Correa.  

    What's kind of sad is when you add 10% to their current totals for the 10% of the season left, correct for partial season for Lopez, Matthews, Lewis, and Keaschall, and then apply the WAR scale, we  don't have a lot going for us. The Fangraphs scale is 6.0 plus is elite, MVP-caliber talent, 4-6 All-Star caliber player, 2-4 good to above average, 0-2 below average to average. The MLB scale is 2 WAR - average full-time starter, 4 WAR decent, semi-star level player, 6 WAR, a true star level player, 8 WAR  - a superstar, MVP caliber player. I used the Fangraphs scale because I have the Fangraphs numbers and don't know if the MLB calculation is different. Here's what you get:

    Buxton - 5.25 - All-Star level player.

    Ryan - 3.8-3.9 - All-Star level player or close.  

    Lopez - @3.5-4 because missed so much with injury - All-Star level player or close. 

    Keaschall - 4 plus projected over a full season. Probably #2 on the team. All-Star level if this is real. 

    Jeffers - 2.1 - Solid regular. 

    Wallner - 1.5 - 1.8 projected due to injury - average or slightly below average MLB player.

    Matthews - 2 -2.5 plus projected over a full season. Average to slightly above.

    Lewis - 1.8-2 plus projected due to injury over a full season. Average MLB player.

    That's it. No one else projects to 2 WAR or more. Austin Martin with 0.4 WAR in 109 ABs projects to around 2ish over a full season. Larnach has 515 PAs and has 0.4 WAR in really a full season, and Brooks Lee has 0.1 in 468 PAs, 80% or more of a full season. Sands and Topa are both over 60 innings, pretty much a full season for a reliever, and have WAR of 0.9 and 0.8 respectively. SWR is at 0.5 in 94 innings, and Festa is 0.3 in 53 innings, both project around 1 WAR.

    I know WAR isn't the end all and be all but I think it paints a pretty accurate and not a pretty picture for this team. In the field, Buxton is a star and Keaschall is a star in waiting if this is real. Jeffers is a solid regular. Wallner and Lewis are average or slightly below players. Martin could be a solid regular to above average if this year continues. On the pitching staff, Ryan and Lopez are stars or are close, Matthews is a solid regular if this year is real. Ober at 0.7 is below average, SWR and Festa are a little better than Ober, and there is nothing in the bullpen other than Sands. We need a lot.  

    If I were the players, especially Buxton, Lopez and Ryan, but on behalf of the rest of the team, I would storm to the ownership's box after the last inning of a disastrous 2025 season and demand a clear explanation of what is ahead. I would vent my frustrations and make the point clear that we want to win and we cannot with kids on the squad. If the Pohlads cannot invest in the free agency, then they should demand a trade. My feeling is the Pohlads want to either sell the team or move it out of state as soon as possible anyway. In any case I would say good riddance! We can get investors homegrown for an expansion team anyway, let alone live without the Losers. 

    The inability of management to complete reasonably significant transactions after each of the last two years (sell high) left the Twins with a slow, defensively challenged roster that struggles to hit. The trades of the top 5 relief pitchers was a disappointment (for me) due to the returns. Expectations and concerns are heavy toward further deals this winter. The returns need to be significant. Look at it in reverse. If the Twins were a team that needed a really good pitcher to win it all next season, would you trade a Walker Jenkins or Luke Keaschall for that guy? Is there an MLB team willing to trade a top talent for Joe Ryan? More importantly, can the current regime identify talent?

    The downward spiral started when Derek Falvey arrived may be a fair article. The style of play he favors lacks creativity and leaves fans yawning. Some really decent Twins teams could have benefitted from a more wide open approach. 

    On 9/8/2025 at 5:59 PM, DocBauer said:

    It's still AMAZING to me how many comments come from people who just refuse to actually read or listen to REAL data and further comments made post Gray leaving the Twins.

    Gray is a competitor by nature. I recall a comment last season with the Cardinals where he said again he wants a chance to go as long as he can. He's NEVER been an innings eater. He's been used almost EXACTLY as he was as a Twin. He hasn't been quite as good with St Loius since he left.

    But somehow, this mantra keeps going on, and on, about he wasn't used to his full capacity. The numbers are easy to look up if doubters would take even a moment to look at them instead of just spitting out vitriol. 

    This is an American problem in 2025. We live in post-truth society with the very obvious political ramifications. 

    When these types of people are called out for just saying ****, they never ever apologize, never reflect on why they're constantly proven wrong, never take any accountability. They just repeat their post-truth "reality" and expect you to fall in line. 

     




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