Is Pinto getting a fair shake?

[Jham]

Has Pinto's rookie contract clock started ticking? I remember him being a September call-up last year which does not count toward the total because of the expanded rosters? So then we will probably see him called up to start in June once he can no longer qualify as a super 2 if he sticks in the majors. Another year of control before arbitration for a potential starting catcher would be a fair trade in my mind.

[thetank]

Has Pinto's rookie contract clock started ticking? I remember him being a September call-up last year which does not count toward the total because of the expanded rosters? So then we will probably see him called up to start in June once he can no longer qualify as a super 2 if he sticks in the majors. Another year of control before arbitration for a potential starting catcher would be a fair trade in my mind.

This would mean that he wouldn't be eligible for arbitration until after 2017?

[Guest USAFChief]

If he starts the season in the minors, it will be because that's the best path for his future development, and not because the dozens of field staffers for the Twins who have a role in his development are taking some pre-determined course of action. And certainly not because they just don't understand that the option exists to let him take his lumps up here. These people know what they're doing.

I think it's fair to discuss what might be the best course of action. The dozens of field staffers might know what they're doing, but then again it's been a decade or so since they placed an impact player on the Twins roster.

[stringer bell]

To avoid Super 2, Pinto would have to wait until August. The extra year of team control would start a few days into May.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

If Pinto is the future catcher, then I feel he needs to be in the majors. So agree with JL's original post. Maybe Pinto should have come up in 2012 too. I don't know what his 40-man status was in 2012.

 

Options options options. I get the sense that player decisions are being made based on some perceived administrative benefit, rather than who can just play better. I get the sense this has been building for a few years now. I'm hoping we put the best 25 players on the team to start the season, regardless of player development rules. They need to be considered, no doubt. But sheesh.

 

I will also take this moment to lobby for Gibson again

[bird]

I think it's fair to discuss what might be the best course of action. The dozens of field staffers might know what they're doing, but then again it's been a decade or so since they placed an impact player on the Twins roster.

 

Of course it's fair to discuss it. You and I have different definitions of impact players I guess, but that's hardly relevant. They go through the same drill regardless of the quality of player. What's relevant to me is that you and I have NEVER placed an impact player on a roster and wouldn't know much about what it entails. So, while I respect your thoughts on the best course of action, I'll probably find the Twin's explanation of the decision to be pretty sound, given their familiarity with all the important details.

[Thrylos]

As someone said a few posts back. The Twins are not a playoff team this year

 

I don't know about playoffs (*) or not, but I would not bet against the Twins making the post-season with a revamped rotation, a dedication to younger players (like Hicks, Pinto, Arcia all starting) a better fielding team (which means Mr Willingham, you are slitting DH duties with Mr Parmelee) and hitters hitting up to their potential.

 

If the Fryers and the Presleys and the Bartletts of the world start, then it is a different story...

 

 

(*) there are not playoffs in baseball other than a potential play in game. On the same line, and totally disappointing, on the MLB Network guide today, Spring Training games were listed as "pre-season" games. That's what happens when football people are dealing with baseball

[snepp]

Has Pinto's rookie contract clock started ticking? I remember him being a September call-up last year which does not count toward the total because of the expanded rosters?

 

Every day spent on the major league roster counts toward service time, September included, up to a max of 172 days in any single season.

 

Pinto has 30 days of ML service as of now.

[Jim Labruno]

I know its all but been said Suzuki is the starter and my guess is Pinto will go down because they want him to pay every day. But even in his very limited action everytime Pinto plays he does something productive. Gets a hit, draws walks, I like the kid

[bird]

I know its all but been said Suzuki is the starter and my guess is Pinto will go down because they want him to pay every day. But even in his very limited action everytime Pinto plays he does something productive. Gets a hit, draws walks, I like the kid

 

Yes, he's fun to watch. But we should remember that the Twins liked the kid long before any of us did, back when his minor league stats looked pretty bad. They have every incentive to place him on the big club. It will be up to Pinto to demonstrate that he's ready. We may not be able to really see the signs that he needs more development time though, because they'll likely be about how he's handling himself behind the plate. Hopefully he'll be ready.

[Jim Labruno]

It is a shame though as I feel they are just wasting time with Suzuki. He can not hit at all no matter what he does in the spring and is not an everyday catcher in reality. And I can understand if you are the Braves, or Yankees who are built to win it all now going with Suzuki but the Twins are not winning it all this year so let Pinto learn on the job

[JB_Iowa]

It is a shame though as I feel they are just wasting time with Suzuki. He can not hit at all no matter what he does in the spring and is not an everyday catcher in reality. And I can understand if you are the Braves, or Yankees who are built to win it all now going with Suzuki but the Twins are not winning it all this year so let Pinto learn on the job

 

I honestly wonder if there isn't more pressure to win this year than we know about. That would explain to me why the Twins would want these new pitchers (veteran though they are) to have an experienced backstop because they are going to have to have some pretty good pitching with their somewhat anemic offense (and while Pinto adds on the offensive side, the Twins have had a bit of a love affair with defensive catchers at times).

 

While many of us would rather see some of the more advanced prospects get the bulk of playing time, it was pretty clear that ownership is looking for more W's. The Twins need to stop the season ticket sale slide and their best bet for doing that is putting a product on the field that is competitive deeper into the season. In the long run, I think that may delay development a bit but it does explain both the pitcher signings and the "back to the future" minor league deals to Kubel, Guerrier and Bartlett.

[Mike Sixel]

Season ticket sales are based on the previous year's results. So, maybe having old guys around to win 2 more games helps, but I don't know if these vets are actually better than the young guys.....and losing Sano is a HUGE blow to ticket sales this year and next year. HUGE.

[SydneyTwinsFan]

This suggests Gardy at least is on board with Pinto splitting time with Suzuki. Interesting he suggests pairing him up with starters he connects well with.

 

 

http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/news/article/min/twins-weighing-options-in-handling-of-catcher-josmil-pinto?ymd=20140313&content_id=69227470

[jokin]

This suggests Gardy at least is on board with Pinto splitting time with Suzuki. Interesting he suggests pairing him up with starters he connects well with.

 

 

http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/news/article/min/twins-weighing-options-in-handling-of-catcher-josmil-pinto?ymd=20140313&content_id=69227470

 

 

But then Gardy quashed the means by which to maximize Pinto's value and make the most sense in bringing him North:

 

"I'm not looking for a DH candidate in (Pinto), I've already been [on] that route," Gardenhire said. "I need two catchers. If I have that, then I'm going to need three catchers, and I don't want to do that."

[cmathewson]

But then Gardy quashed the means by which to maximize Pinto's value and make the most sense in bringing him North:

 

I hope he gets some opportunities to DH. But I hope he doesn't use him at DH too much. He can learn a lot sitting next to Steiny.

 

One note of encouragement came from a quote by Correia after yesterday's game that he felt was working with Pinto to get ready for Opening Day. It sure sounded like the plan is to bring Pinto north.

[ashbury]

I hope he gets some opportunities to DH. But I hope he doesn't use him at DH too much. He can learn a lot sitting next to Steiny.

 

Coming up to bat five times, and hopefully being on base twice, should leave him three hours or so to sit next to Steiny.

[mrmpls]

The whole front office talks up pinto during the off season , and come showtime as in many other years gardy has no patience or time with young players as long as they keep dumpster diving for cheap veterans!!

11

Even though the money was minimal with Suzuki, clearly they should have just gone with Pinto and Herrmann, with Fryer in AAA as emergency.

[YourHouseIsMyHouse]

He's 24 years old, wasn't challenged in AA or AAA, and doesn't have any legitimate players blocking him on a rebuilding team. In a word, yes.

 

When it comes to cheap, gritty veterans, the Twins can't help themselves and have to start them regardless of all other factors.

[stringer bell]

He's 24 years old, wasn't challenged in AA or AAA, and doesn't have any legitimate players blocking him on a rebuilding team. In a word, yes.

 

When it comes to cheap, gritty veterans, the Twins can't help themselves and have to start them regardless of all other factors.

Pinto will be 25 on Opening Day and he had less than 80 plate appearances at AAA. While I think he should go north with the Twins, I understand there are factors that could get him sent to Rochester. If he is the DH more than rarely, either he is a far better hitter than I thought or nobody on the team can hit.

[LaBombo]

The signing of Suzuki wasn't a terrible one to begin with, but it has a chance to turn out that way if Pinto ends up playing only once or twice a week all season. It would be better to let him work on his defense in AAA until he's ready to push Suzuki to the bench and start around two thirds of the games.

 

And however it was phrased, the Antony comment about weight isn't a good sign with respect to how highly they regard him. If there's organizational concern about conditioning, and therefore possibly even work ethic, well, it's going to be hard to overcome in the near term in a franchise that considers Spring Training to be Spring Tryouts. As far as I can remember, at least that hasn't been a recurring theme in the scouting reports on him.

 

It's still disappointing to know that Gardy hasn't overcome his bizarre, inexplicable phobia of 'losing the DH' for two or three at bats when one of two catchers DH's. But at least he's made it clear that he'd rather have two non-DHable catchers than pretend it's the '80's and carry three, which is pretty much a 24 man roster.

[cmathewson]

The signing of Suzuki wasn't a terrible one to begin with, but it has a chance to turn out that way if Pinto ends up playing only once or twice a week all season. It would be better to let him work on his defense in AAA until he's ready to push Suzuki to the bench and start around two thirds of the games.

 

And however it was phrased, the Antony comment about weight isn't a good sign with respect to how highly they regard him. If there's organizational concern about conditioning, and therefore possibly even work ethic, well, it's going to be hard to overcome in the near term in a franchise that considers Spring Training to be Spring Tryouts. As far as I can remember, at least that hasn't been a recurring theme in the scouting reports on him.

 

It's still disappointing to know that Gardy hasn't overcome his bizarre, inexplicable phobia of 'losing the DH' for two or three at bats when one of two catchers DH's. But at least he's made it clear that he'd rather have two non-DHable catchers than pretend it's the '80's and carry three, which is pretty much a 24 man roster.

 

I think Suzuki is a good mentor for Pinto. He might not hit much anymore, but he's a good receiver and he calls a good game. I'm sure he'll start the majority of the games to begin with, but he will become the backup. The catching position is not something that is easy to grow into. We are spoiled with Mauer, who seemed like he could call a good game at 20. Most catchers take into their mid-20s to learn the craft. Pinto is right on track, but he has a learning curve left. Suzuki can help him with this.

 

I'm not as concerned about the DH thing because catchers need to give their hands days off. The catching position is much more of a grind in this day and age than it was before Moneyball. So many pitches. So much time in the crouch. It takes a toll.

 

Now, when Gardy talks about Suzuki leading off, then I really get scared.

[stringer bell]

If a team uses their second catcher as the DH there is a real loss of flexibility. If Pinto were the DH, then Gardy couldn't run or hit for Suzuki without losing the DH. Hitting or running for Pinto would leave no backup for Suzuki for the balance of the game. It is different than when Maher was involved, since there was never a strategic reason to remove him from the game. Although Doumit was a slow runner, he was a switch hitter and a better hitter than any bench alternative, so flexibility was seldom an issue.

[Willihammer]

If a team uses their second catcher as the DH there is a real loss of flexibility. If Pinto were the DH, then Gardy couldn't run or hit for Suzuki without losing the DH. Hitting or running for Pinto would leave no backup for Suzuki for the balance of the game.

 

Ok but how often would either of those outcomes actually happen and specifically, how often would there be any real cost to losing the DH for an at-bat, or needing a 3rd catcher? We are talking about potentially handicapping the lineup (when a RH DH would be preferred) and sacrificing 1/25th the roster on two redundant continengies for doomsday scenarios that almost never happen.

[Willihammer]

This suggests Gardy at least is on board with Pinto splitting time with Suzuki. Interesting he suggests pairing him up with starters he connects well with.

 

http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/news/article/min/twins-weighing-options-in-handling-of-catcher-josmil-pinto?ymd=20140313&content_id=69227470

 

I was on board with Gardy until I read this

 

"I'm not looking for a DH candidate in a catcher, I've already been [on] that route," Gardenhire said. "I need two catchers. If I have that, then I'm going to need three catchers, and I don't want to do that."

[Willihammer]

Oh wait, duh. Pinto in left field and Hammer to DH when facing a lefty. Double doomsday scenario averted.

[stringer bell]

Ok but how often would either of those outcomes actually happen and specifically, how often would there be any real cost to losing the DH for an at-bat, or needing a 3rd catcher? We are talking about potentially handicapping the lineup (when a RH DH would be preferred) and sacrificing 1/25th the roster on two redundant continengies for doomsday scenarios that almost never happen.

I would assume the Twins will be behind a run or two and will want to hit for Suzuki quite as a few times. I would assume they would tie or go ahead somewhere between a few and a dozen times and if Pinto is DH, they would lose the DH. They would be locked in with Pinto at DH, unable to run or hit for him, except in the most desperate situations. I don't see Pinto as such a superior hitter that it would justify limiting bench moves on a regular basis.

[stringer bell]

I think Hammer and Plouffe should be the principle DHs against lefties. If Colabello makes the team, he's the logical choice.

[cmathewson]

I think Hammer and Plouffe should be the principle DHs against lefties. If Colabello makes the team, he's the logical choice.

 

I'm kind of hoping Colabello makes the team. That means they carry 12 pitchers (logical considering their offseason acquisitions), they only carry one utility infielder (no need for two), and two catchers. A Colabello/Kubel platoon at DH seems a lot more comfortable, especially with Kubel's .679 career OPS against lefties.

[Willihammer]

I would assume the Twins will be behind a run or two and will want to hit for Suzuki quite as a few times. I would assume they would tie or go ahead somewhere between a few and a dozen times and if Pinto is DH, they would lose the DH. They would be locked in with Pinto at DH, unable to run or hit for him, except in the most desperate situations. I don't see Pinto as such a superior hitter that it would justify limiting bench moves on a regular basis.

 

I guess my qualm is with the mindset that says you try to win the game in late innings rather than putting your best team forward from the get-go. I think back to the 2010 team with Thome at DH and all the 1st inning runs we scored. We ended up with well over 100 first inning runs, it gave us a huge advantage and allowed pitchers to just groove strikes and put opposition batters in a defensive posture. As compared to recent Twins teams always digging out of a early hole, and our batters strikeout swinging at bad pitches in a desperate attempt to muster a comeback. Games are as often won and lost in the first 4-5 innings as they are in the 8th and 9th, maybe more often.