Article: Twins Trade Justin Morneau To Pirates

[jorgenswest]

I think developing and investing playing into younger players will lead the Twins back into contention.

 

I think they were wise not to sign a decline phase infielder or play Carroll and instead invested time into Dozier, Florimon and Plouffe. I think we would know more about Parmelee, Colabello and Herrmann had they not extended Doumit. It takes at least 1000 plate appearances to get a read on a hitter. They could have been closer.

 

Younger players happen to be cheaper. Their growth adds to the base of a long term solution. Their certain struggle prevents a short term fix. I think the Twins need to work towards a long term solution. They are too far away in the short term. Many disagree.

[Oxtung]

I think developing and investing playing into younger players will lead the Twins back into contention.

 

I think they were wise not to sign a decline phase infielder or play Carroll and instead invested time into Dozier, Florimon and Plouffe. I think we would know more about Parmelee, Colabello and Herrmann had they not extended Doumit. It takes at least 1000 plate appearances to get a read on a hitter. They could have been closer.

 

Younger players happen to be cheaper. Their growth adds to the base of a long term solution. Their certain struggle prevents a short term fix. I think the Twins need to work towards a long term solution. They are too far away in the short term. Many disagree.

 

"Signing decline phase players", as you put it, is just one avenue that money could have been spent. If you don't like that particular road then pick another. There is more than one way to skin this cat.

[jorgenswest]

If the contract doesn't take the player to age 32 it is OK. International players are usually younger but in short supply. I would advocate that they go with younger players which would result in a lower budget. I don't care about the budget. I care that they build a team that grows together.

 

I also don't live in the area and hence don't contribute to the budget in the form of season tickets. The voice of the season ticket holders should carry all of the weight.

[old nurse]

John, Pilgrim, Old Nurse-

 

As I said, you can justify any of the individual points if you try hard enough. Let me ask you just one question:

 

Do you think saving $60 million has helped the Twins return to contention?

 

Nice duck of my question. No, saving money has not helped the Twins return to contention. Neither would have keeping the players let go.

[Mr. Brooks]

Nice duck of my question. No, saving money has not helped the Twins return to contention. Neither would have keeping the players let go.

 

Maybe not in contention, but they would sure help a lot.

Cuddyer in RF adds 2.3 wins.

Span in CF adds 2.4 wins.

I won't add Revere, because he was making the league minimum, so obviously you can't even make an argument that he was a salary dump.

Nathan in the bullpen adds 2.0 wins.

Liriano in the rotation adds 3.1 wins.

 

That is 10 wins right there, which gets us to .500 or above, or the "meaningful" games in September that Terry Ryan claimed we'd be playing.

[old nurse]

"Signing decline phase players", as you put it, is just one avenue that money could have been spent. If you don't like that particular road then pick another. There is more than one way to skin this cat.

 

In theory you would be correct. That would make an assumption that the players you could sign to a 1-2 year contract were better than the ones you played. You can't find that.

[jorgenswest]

Maybe not in contention, but they would sure help a lot.

Cuddyer in RF adds 2.3 wins.

Span in CF adds 2.4 wins.

I won't add Revere, because he was making the league minimum, so obviously you can't even make an argument that he was a salary dump.

Nathan in the bullpen adds 2.0 wins.

Liriano in the rotation adds 3.1 wins.

 

That is 10 wins right there, which gets us to .500 or above, or the "meaningful" games in September that Terry Ryan claimed we'd be playing.

 

Doesn't this assume that they would be replacing a replacement level player? I don't think Nathan adds 2 wins to the late inning reliever group. It was a clear savings in money.

 

Cuddyer adds that over Willingham, but was that a reasonable projection? The exchange of the two players did save a little in salary, but their performance over two years has been a wash.

 

They could have kept Liriano by not trading and making a qualifying offer. He would have accepted. Would anyone have thought that was reasonable?

 

They did trade wins in 2013 by trading Span. Good pitching prospects have a significant cost. 2-3 wins taken from the 2013 record seems a worthwhile risk. I don't see it as a salary dump.

[Oxtung]

Nice duck of my question. No, saving money has not helped the Twins return to contention. Neither would have keeping the players let go.

 

I didn't respond to your post because it had nothing to do with my point. I don't care that Ryan didn't resign Nathan, Cuddyer, Kubel, et al. I do care that he has had significant financial resources and he has chosen not to invest those towards the future.

 

He could have signed a long term upgrade like Greinke or Sanchez. He could have signed short term bounce back contracts like Santana. He could have taken on short term contracts with upside and a potential to be flipped like Kuroda or Colon. He could have taken on a big contract of a good but over paid player like Soriano. He could have gone wild in international free agency like the Cubs thereby increasing our talent in a few years. He could have signed an international free agent like Ryu or Iwakuma.

 

Those were all options and there are probably more I'm not thinking of. He did none of those. I have a preferred method but at this point I don't care if it is chosen. I just want him to pick one or two this off season and go for it. You can't win when you don't play.

[Kwak]

And yet, an entire industry of journalism not only does this, but does it really well and quite accurately. So, if this is the basis for your argument, it's rather flimsy.

 

I've repeatedly said I don't know how much value they lost with their stubborn behavior. It might have been none. But they had ZERO reasons to be stubborn about it initially. They had no bargaining power save helping with his contract and they refused to put that on the table by all accounts. That, to me, is unacceptable. I hope they have a good reason for it, because the most obvious one is very upsetting.

 

Apologies, S.A.C.D..

 

"When you have eliminated the probable, the possible, the improbable, and the impossible--you are left with the obvious".

 

When a precipitous drop in payroll over multiple years why is it assumed that said reduction wasn't planned? Several ex-Twins were named attached with the claim that so-and-so wasn't worth keeping--OK. But the payroll "saved by not extending so-and-so" could go into improving the team elsewhere--but it didn't. There will be another large payroll reduction between 2013 and 2014 due to Morneau, Carroll, and Blackburn contracts not renewed. Ryan (when exonerating Gardenhire for this year's disappointment) stated that there wasn't enough talent. However, there has been no statement about rectifying the talent shortage this offseason. Why? Has the talent shotage been fixed?--No. It is clear that payroll reduction was the prime directive and that rebuilding will be done in the same manner as in the 1990's--despite the public subsidy provided.

[Mike Sixel]

After a week:

 

I like the trade,

 

Justin goes to a winner

It opens time for others to play

They are not in the awkward position of not re-signing him this offseason

[CharacterGroove]

After a week:

 

I like the trade,

 

Justin goes to a winner

It opens time for others to play

They are not in the awkward position of not re-signing him this offseason

 

Yeah, that's my position as well. The first and third points anyway, I don't care as much about playing guys who are not likely to be a part of the future - although it's cool seeing Collabello. I'd be singing a different tune in that point if Parmalee had done his part.

[70charger]

Can I just interrupt the same exact discussion we've been banging our heads against on this site for two years and actually mention something about Justin Morneau?

 

It seems as though his post-ASB hot streak is continuing. In just a few games with the Pirates, his triple slash is .462/.588/.538 and OPS 1.127.

 

For a team like the Pirates that don't have a wide lead in the playoff race, this version of Morneau is exactly what they needed. Good for him.

[Oxtung]

Just to come back to the point of the thread and to clarify my position a bit, I think the trade needed to happen and I am glad Ryan got it done. My problem with the trade is how it fits into the broader picture of the financial resources not being used to maximize this teams return to contention.

 

Good for Justin and Liriano!

[ashbury]

Do you think saving $60 million has helped the Twins return to contention?

 

Now you're switching from commenting on trade-deadline deals in losing seasons, to overall strategy. Not every thread has to become a referendum on Terry Ryan, and this thread is far and away long enough, so I'm not taking the offer.