How Good Has Twins First Baseman Ty France Been So Far?

[Major League Ready]

We have ignored any discussion of the options.  Most would have chosen Christian Walker.  His wRC+ is 68 vs 98 for France.  We were not going to get Alonso from the Mets.  That's where he wanted to be and Goldschmidt was not coming here over the Yankees.   We could have gotten Santana and he has been slightly better than France.  Bell was another option but he has been terrible.  

[Doctor Gast]

22 hours ago, NYCTK said:

You somehow believe that Keirsey would be a significantly better player if he just got 100 more PAs last season in the majors. Yeah, sure, he should have played over Margot last season. But that doesn't mean he'd be any better this season. This is ridiculous thinking. 

And, thanks to the helpful search function on this website, I can tell you that the second comment you made mentioning Bader was: 

Quote

Like Margot no matter how bad Bader is he'll get his playing time & roster spot.

So...

You quoting me is proof how you twist my statements, My statement is not predicting on Bader production, it's stating how bullheaded this FO is by keeping veteran acquisitions on the roster & line up no matter what. 

You give a player a good amount of regular ABs he will improve if you don't he won't. That's to be expected. That's not ridiculous, that's common sense.

Kody Clemens broke into the MLB the same age as Keirsey (26). his 1st year, he had 117 ABs most of them regular ABs, his stat line was .145/,197/.308/.505. 2nd year, 139 ABs stat line he improved to .230/.277/.367/.644. This year before MN picked him up he didn't have regular ABs with PHI, his stat line was .000/.143/.000/.143 until MN had patience with him & gave him regular ABs. Around 400 career ABs it started to kick in.

Keirsey (1st year) had 13 ABs, his stat line was .154/.214/.385/599. When he has been given sparse regular ABs he usually has key hits. Right now in his progress it usually takes him 4 ABs in a game to get up to speed & quite often he's taken out of the game before that. Keirsey is a better fielder & baserunner than Clemens but Clemens been given ample opportunity to hit while Keirsey has not. 

Again I'm not saying that Keirsey will be an all-star, but I'd like this organization to develop their young players to the max & they have failed. We are not NY we can't just go out & buy the top players; we have to develop them.

[Major League Ready]

7 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

Again I'm not saying that Keirsey will be an all-star, but I'd like this organization to develop their young players to the max & they have failed. We are not NY we can't just go out & buy the top players; we have to develop them.

Let’s think about your statement.  How many starting spots are filled by players that broke into the majors as a Twin.

RF – Wallner

CF – Buxton

LF – Larnach

3B – Lewis

2B – Lee

C  -  Jeffers

6 of 8 position players and 3 of 5 starting pitchers and 4 of 5 by next year.  The only one not developed was acquired in trade for a player we did develop.  Of course, Ryan was not exactly developed and drafted but he was acquired for nothing before making his debut.  Our top RPs (Duran / Jax / Sands) all developed here.  

They failed to develop players? They are playing as well as any team in the league with a team primarily developed from within.  Their big free agent splash is not a big contributor, at least not yet.  Not sure that spells failure.

[Doctor Gast]

13 hours ago, Major League Ready said:

Let’s think about your statement.  How many starting spots are filled by players that broke into the majors as a Twin.

RF – Wallner

CF – Buxton

LF – Larnach

3B – Lewis

2B – Lee

C  -  Jeffers

6 of 8 position players and 3 of 5 starting pitchers and 4 of 5 by next year.  The only one not developed was acquired in trade for a player we did develop.  Of course, Ryan was not exactly developed and drafted but he was acquired for nothing before making his debut.  Our top RPs (Duran / Jax / Sands) all developed here.  

They failed to develop players? They are playing as well as any team in the league with a team primarily developed from within.  Their big free agent splash is not a big contributor, at least not yet.  Not sure that spells failure.

We could debate on how well our current coaches have coached these 6 high draft picks, That prior coaches like Tanner Swanson, James Rowson, Wes Johnson have had ton of praises from the players & now players rarely praise the coaches, it's more I'm working on this or that. Meaning the players have to get the info & work on it themselves. But that wasn't my point.

We could debate that these 6 high draft picks made it. How many have not? We could debate how poor our depth is, especially at catcher, but still that isn't my point. Frankly, MLB Ready; I don't care if we have ZERO in-house players on the roster if we develop our players & trade them for players that'll fill our big needs.

What I was mainly referring to was how little attention is given to players who have proven themselves, but are not on the Twins' personal list, who are put in very difficult situations to thrive in the MLB. They should be given every opportunity to make good in the MLB. This makes for good vibes on & off the field. It's good for the players & it's good for the team. This raises their value so that we could trade them for a bigger need. The way things are now these players are worthless.

[Riverbrian]

On 5/23/2025 at 11:39 AM, Fire Dan Gladden said:

Thank you for clarifying.

I used stopgap, but probably meant it in a different sense. I agree that somebody should be pushing France at 1B.  Even the best teams have positions that have little to no depth. Here is where finding the cheap-but-usable, or 1-yr make-good, contract is important. The Twins have had some success finding that at 1B over the last few years.

The immediate problem is that Miranda and Julien (options 1 and 2) have basically blown their opportunity and and Keaschall (possibly option 3) is out for a while. The "we don't know what we don't know" argument about McKusker is probably holding him back (queue the references to Keirsey being held down by the man).

However, to your point, when is the last time the Twins have developed a quality 1B? Morneau? Is it institutional or a run of bad luck? I think more recent drafts have prioritized positional flexibility guys, which tend more towards the Brooks Lee type. They really don't have much in the way of bat-first (or bat-only) guys in MiLB.

Sorry for the delayed response. I only did some light reading of Twinsdaily over the long weekend and now I'm reviving a thread it turns out. 

Your third paragraph is what I'm wrestling with. The second sentence of your third paragraph is the key question. I don't know how we got here but whatever the reason... we are in this room and we got to get out of this room. 

Everybody has different paths to get where they are... Here is how I got where I am. Wrong or Right, I come by my opinions honestly and it's about all I can see right now. 

1. This is the point of all points and the driving force behind all the other points. I believe Baseball is an unfair game. Everything revolves around this unfairness. I believe that the team has a budget, I don't believe that a new owner is going to solve this unfairness, I believe that the Twins have spent in a range and will continue to spend in a range. It's the same range that a lot of similar teams in similar circumstances move up and down in. This range is clearly a step below a grouping of teams that can and will spend more and that disparity seems to be growing as the Dodgers and Mets create a new level beyond the Yankees. I don't think a new owner is going to change this and I'm just not going to beat my head against this wall. The CBA has been collectively bargained and agreed upon into law. This disparity has been baked in and this disparity will never stop. The Twins have operated at this financial level for decades. I don't believe it will change so what is the solution. The sensible solution: Development has to keep up, development can't pause or lull. Point #1 is a shadow cast onto nearly every decision they have to make. If it doesn't... we are in trouble because that means we are trying to be the big boys without big boy income.  

2. When the Twins signed Correa it was perhaps the most shocking thing the Twins have ever done in the history of the franchise. It still took two big budget teams to pull higher offers off the table due to medical concerns to make it happen. Regardless, it was still perhaps in the history of the franchise the most out of character shocking thing the franchise has ever done. I don't expect to be shocked like that again. I never go into an off-season looking at the top names of the free agent pile because it's why set yourself up for something that isn't going to happen. I'm not going to bang my head against this wall... I've come to terms with the fact that we will not sign a high end player developed by other organizations. The sensible solution to this: We have to develop not only our own high end player if we want one on our team but we also need to develop those guys who are league average or slightly below average as well.

3. If we EVER want to consider playing at the upper Correa levels of free agency in the future (while Correa, Buxton are still on the team) they have to control the secondary spending. Secondary spending that has produced average at best when successful or crappy with job protection. Somewhere in Bartlett's there is the old saying... a million here and a million there... pretty soon you are talking about real money. That money adds up and takes any possibility of even attempting a larger value player. The Twins can't free up money to play in upper level free agent arena by moving big contracts because that isn't progress. That's one for one. It's only progress if the big level free agent falls flat on his face such as the shedding of Josh Donaldson. Basically, we have so few big contracts anyway, trading Correa so you can sign a Correa type just isn't progress. The sensible solution to this: Control your secondary spending by increasing the number of players making the minimum on the roster. If the Twins want to compete in the upper end of the free agent market. They have to control the million here, a million there spending in order to have the money available to play at that level. Instead of 30 million spent on Vazquez, the system needs to produce a pre-arb player who only has to match his production at worse. Did our system to fail to produce this player or players or does is our front office pre-screening pre determining that they do not trust what it is producing. 

I tend to go back and think about point #1 right about this time to see it all tie together. 

4. After players reach arbitration, they no longer cost the minimum. Once they reach arbitration they eat away at the available budget. Once again, a million here and a million there... pretty soon you are talking about real money. What do we have to show for our arb eligible guys and players approaching arbitration? The overwhelming development success is on the pitching side and the pitching side is doing great. The offense? I got concerns... big ones. Trevor Larnach is in year one of arbitration making 2.1 million. He costs 3 times the minimum now. I believe in this guy but next year he will go up in cost again and probably be 6 or 7 or 8 times the minimum. What has offensive development brought us on the offensive side. Larnach now dips into the available budget and he is just now being allowed to face left handed pitching. Royce Lewis... now making two times the minimum. I got high hopes for him but I'm getting pretty nervous. Started out like a house on fire superstar, Julien started out like a house on fire as well. Lewis has been given every chance to be the superstar we think he should but right now on May 29th, 2025 Royce Lewis is mired in a I don't belong in the major leagues slump that has existed since July of 2024. A slump that has been tied together with abnormal injury absences. 65 AB's thus far in 2025. He's hitting .138/.200/.215. I get that he needs a chance to tune up since he missed a chunk of spring training but he's at 65 AB's now and for perspective Matt Wallner had the most AB's in spring training tune up's with 57 AB's.

.207/.250/.350 post all star break last year. 

Jeffers will be in his last year of Arbitration and probably double his salary from 4.5 to 9 or 10.  

Miranda will hit arbitration next year... Still hasn't put it together. If he gets another shot... it will be at a higher price point. Right now it looks like Wallner, Lee and Keaschall will be given opportunity to be pre-arb hitters for us next year. That's a low number and nobody else is demonstrating or being allowed to demonstrate that they could be a 4th. The remaining 10 spots will have to be replaced by the Bader replacement and the France replacement and those 10 players will make more than the minimum as they each eat out of the available budget. 

5. Not all teams are filling holes with the low price vet. There are teams that are doing as better or as well with double the amount of pre-arb players. The financial difference between 16 pre-arb players and 8 pre-arb players is a lot of available money that could be spent on higher end free agents. How much of financial difference? In the case of the Tigers... It's about 50 million in 2025. About the price of Flaherty, Torres, Cobb and Kahnle. Hard to get excited about Ty France when you realize that it was the only job he could get and we are kicking the 1B can down the road year after year with no one rising from the farm. The Tigers went from bad farm system to best team in baseball farm produced in a short window during the back half of the Falvey tenure. Cleveland, Milwaukee, same thing. Count the pre-abr players and the Wins and you can't help but ask... what are we doing. Strip mining our left handed hitters for parts. Signing DFA guys because the farm ain't ready or it's unlucky. 

6. I really like what they've done with the pitching development. We haven't needed to sign a Dylan Bundy for awhile and it's one of the top pitching staffs in baseball. Offensively... Nope... we got problem and I'm just shooting the flare gun into the sky. Been shooting it for a couple of years now.  We are going to need more than Keaschall or we are going back into the Margot/France raffle drum again. 

I should have sent you money for doughnuts and a coffee while reading all of that. 

 

[USAFChief]

On 5/24/2025 at 2:57 PM, Doctor Gast said:

You quoting me is proof how you twist my statements,

Sorry Doc, dont mean to pic on you, but this statement deserves a spot in the TD Hall Of Fame. 

Somewhere. 

[Fire Dan Gladden]

30 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

Sorry for the delayed response. I only did some light reading of Twinsdaily over the long weekend and now I'm reviving a thread it turns out. 

Your third paragraph is what I'm wrestling with. The second sentence of your third paragraph is the key question. I don't know how we got here but whatever the reason... we are in this room and we got to get out of this room. 

Everybody has different paths to get where they are... Here is how I got where I am. Wrong or Right, I come by my opinions honestly and it's about all I can see right now. 

1. This is the point of all points and the driving force behind all the other points. I believe Baseball is an unfair game. Everything revolves around this unfairness. I believe that the team has a budget, I don't believe that a new owner is going to solve this unfairness, I believe that the Twins have spent in a range and will continue to spend in a range. It's the same range that a lot of similar teams in similar circumstances move up and down in. This range is clearly a step below a grouping of teams that can and will spend more and that disparity seems to be growing as the Dodgers and Mets create a new level beyond the Yankees. I don't think a new owner is going to change this and I'm just not going to beat my head against this wall. The CBA has been collectively bargained and agreed upon into law. This disparity has been baked in and this disparity will never stop. The Twins have operated at this financial level for decades. I don't believe it will change so what is the solution. The sensible solution: Development has to keep up, development can't pause or lull. Point #1 is a shadow cast onto nearly every decision they have to make. If it doesn't... we are in trouble because that means we are trying to be the big boys without big boy income.  

2. When the Twins signed Correa it was perhaps the most shocking thing the Twins have ever done in the history of the franchise. It still took two big budget teams to pull higher offers off the table due to medical concerns to make it happen. Regardless, it was still perhaps in the history of the franchise the most out of character shocking thing the franchise has ever done. I don't expect to be shocked like that again. I never go into an off-season looking at the top names of the free agent pile because it's why set yourself up for something that isn't going to happen. I'm not going to bang my head against this wall... I've come to terms with the fact that we will not sign a high end player developed by other organizations. The sensible solution to this: We have to develop not only our own high end player if we want one on our team but we also need to develop those guys who are league average or slightly below average as well.

3. If we EVER want to consider playing at the upper Correa levels of free agency in the future (while Correa, Buxton are still on the team) they have to control the secondary spending. Secondary spending that has produced average at best when successful or crappy with job protection. Somewhere in Bartlett's there is the old saying... a million here and a million there... pretty soon you are talking about real money. That money adds up and takes any possibility of even attempting a larger value player. The Twins can't free up money to play in upper level free agent arena by moving big contracts because that isn't progress. That's one for one. It's only progress if the big level free agent falls flat on his face such as the shedding of Josh Donaldson. Basically, we have so few big contracts anyway, trading Correa so you can sign a Correa type just isn't progress. The sensible solution to this: Control your secondary spending by increasing the number of players making the minimum on the roster. If the Twins want to compete in the upper end of the free agent market. They have to control the million here, a million there spending in order to have the money available to play at that level. Instead of 30 million spent on Vazquez, the system needs to produce a pre-arb player who only has to match his production at worse. Did our system to fail to produce this player or players or does is our front office pre-screening pre determining that they do not trust what it is producing. 

I tend to go back and think about point #1 right about this time to see it all tie together. 

4. After players reach arbitration, they no longer cost the minimum. Once they reach arbitration they eat away at the available budget. Once again, a million here and a million there... pretty soon you are talking about real money. What do we have to show for our arb eligible guys and players approaching arbitration? The overwhelming development success is on the pitching side and the pitching side is doing great. The offense? I got concerns... big ones. Trevor Larnach is in year one of arbitration making 2.1 million. He costs 3 times the minimum now. I believe in this guy but next year he will go up in cost again and probably be 6 or 7 or 8 times the minimum. What has offensive development brought us on the offensive side. Larnach now dips into the available budget and he is just now being allowed to face left handed pitching. Royce Lewis... now making two times the minimum. I got high hopes for him but I'm getting pretty nervous. Started out like a house on fire superstar, Julien started out like a house on fire as well. Lewis has been given every chance to be the superstar we think he should but right now on May 29th, 2025 Royce Lewis is mired in a I don't belong in the major leagues slump that has existed since July of 2024. A slump that has been tied together with abnormal injury absences. 65 AB's thus far in 2025. He's hitting .138/.200/.215. I get that he needs a chance to tune up since he missed a chunk of spring training but he's at 65 AB's now and for perspective Matt Wallner had the most AB's in spring training tune up's with 57 AB's.

.207/.250/.350 post all star break last year. 

Jeffers will be in his last year of Arbitration and probably double his salary from 4.5 to 9 or 10.  

Miranda will hit arbitration next year... Still hasn't put it together. If he gets another shot... it will be at a higher price point. Right now it looks like Wallner, Lee and Keaschall will be given opportunity to be pre-arb hitters for us next year. That's a low number and nobody else is demonstrating or being allowed to demonstrate that they could be a 4th. The remaining 10 spots will have to be replaced by the Bader replacement and the France replacement and those 10 players will make more than the minimum as they each eat out of the available budget. 

5. Not all teams are filling holes with the low price vet. There are teams that are doing as better or as well with double the amount of pre-arb players. The financial difference between 16 pre-arb players and 8 pre-arb players is a lot of available money that could be spent on higher end free agents. How much of financial difference? In the case of the Tigers... It's about 50 million in 2025. About the price of Flaherty, Torres, Cobb and Kahnle. Hard to get excited about Ty France when you realize that it was the only job he could get and we are kicking the 1B can down the road year after year with no one rising from the farm. The Tigers went from bad farm system to best team in baseball farm produced in a short window during the back half of the Falvey tenure. Cleveland, Milwaukee, same thing. Count the pre-abr players and the Wins and you can't help but ask... what are we doing. Strip mining our left handed hitters for parts. Signing DFA guys because the farm ain't ready or it's unlucky. 

6. I really like what they've done with the pitching development. We haven't needed to sign a Dylan Bundy for awhile and it's one of the top pitching staffs in baseball. Offensively... Nope... we got problem and I'm just shooting the flare gun into the sky. Been shooting it for a couple of years now.  We are going to need more than Keaschall or we are going back into the Margot/France raffle drum again. 

I should have sent you money for doughnuts and a coffee while reading all of that. 

 

Thank you for taking the time and effort to put all of that out there.

There is a lot to unpack in your comments, but the short version of my response is the Twins:
1) Have spent basically all of their high picks in recent years on certain types of players: positional flexible (Lee types) and pitchers. Jenkins was an outlier.
2) Have done a continuously upward trending job of acquiring, drafting, and preparing pitchers for the majors.
3) Know that money will always be an issue until some sort of true competitive and financial balance is worked out between owners and players 
 

[Riverbrian]

19 hours ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

Thank you for taking the time and effort to put all of that out there.

There is a lot to unpack in your comments, but the short version of my response is the Twins:
1) Have spent basically all of their high picks in recent years on certain types of players: positional flexible (Lee types) and pitchers. Jenkins was an outlier.
2) Have done a continuously upward trending job of acquiring, drafting, and preparing pitchers for the majors.
3) Know that money will always be an issue until some sort of true competitive and financial balance is worked out between owners and players 
 

1. Scouts being able to identify potential talent is probably less than half the battle. Once drafted what happens next... it's the organization that must get them up the levels and prepared. I'm guessing that development is the more important than the identification of. Not diminishing the identification but I think the real magic happens after. Clubs can't survive on 1st rounders alone. Just take the Tigers. 6 Pre-Arb position players in the typical starting lineup. Only two were first round picks Greene and Torkelson.

The rest: 

Dingler 2nd round

Keith 5th round

Carpenter 19th Round

Sweeney 20th Round (Trade Acquisition)

Pre-Arb backing those guys up:

Henry-Malloy 6th Round (Trade Acquistion)

Perez IFA

and Parker Meadows currently on the IL who was a 2nd Round Pick

8 of 13 spots Pre-Arb. Actually 9 if you include Meadows. 

2. I absolutely love what is happening on the pitching side. It's part of the reason I don't stand here on call for people's heads. They are doing something good here. It's not fair to only focus on negative without recognizing the positive. 

3. Money has been something to overcome since forever and without an agreed upon change during collective bargaining. Money will continue to be something to overcome. There's only one way to over come this inherent money disparity.