VIKES @ LIONS 1/5/25

[gunnarthor]

4 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Detroit had the worst defense in football the five weeks before this...

And the Packers had the hottest offense in football for the five weeks before last week. Detroit has some talent and they had a good game plan that our coaches were not ready for and didn't seem able to adjust to. And most of our offensive players - not just Darnold - seemed to struggle. (I think there was a lot of concern about big hits). 

[Parfigliano]

12 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

The offense just made no adjustments. No screens, no draws. Not even any quick passes to the flat. They even said on the broadcast well into the 4th quarter how receivers were running downfield routes against the cover 0 all out blitz. If you’re going to be labeled an offensive genius I feel like you’re got to game plan out of that 

KOC has stunk at making O adjustments all year.  The game plan to start the game will finish the game whether it's working or not.

[Parfigliano]

12 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Turner, just another bad draft pick so far.

 

12 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Turner, just another bad draft pick so far.

Said Kwesi should have been gone last year because his drafts suck.  Got lots of pushback for saying it.  He needs to be gone.

[Mike Sixel]

2 minutes ago, Parfigliano said:

 

Said Kwesi should have been gone last year because his drafts suck.  Got lots of pushback for saying it.  He needs to be gone.

Kind of hard to argue that after 14 wins

[Aggies7]

Is it fair to say yesterday was the de facto NFCCG? Is that why this hurts so bad 😂

[TheLeviathan]

2 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

Yeah, but let's not remove all blame from the receivers. Jefferson dropped a touchdown and had a few other drops. In fact, we had a lot of drops all around. Hutchinson in particular played a really bad game. 

I have no idea what the all-22 cameras and what real coaches are going to see - hopefully our coaches are really good at this - but, while Darnold played badly, I didn't think he looked like a deer in headlights or anything. A few times he held the ball too long but mostly he was throwing off his back foot against the blitz. And we were able to move the ball between the 20s. 

Which play are you considering a "drop" in the endzone?

I would encourage you to go back and look at some of the plays.  There are open, easy throws and Darnold just doesn't take them.  There are two images on this page alone that are indefensibly awful QBing.  

[TheLeviathan]

2 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

Our left side of the OL was very bad last night 

Maybe PFF is on the right track, but I don't think they are.  Let me throw this tidbit out, it's a stat that is current as of two weeks ago:

• Love: ADOT - 8.9, time to throw 2.88 seconds, sacks 11 (2.7% sack rate).

• Purdy: ADOT 8.7, time to throw 2.94 seconds, sacks 29 (6.4% sack rate).

• Darnold: ADOT 9.1, time to throw 3.08 seconds, sacks 45 (8.9% sack rate).

There are three roughly equal QBs in terms of mobility.  Darnold is throwing the ball about an equal distance downfield with more time than them, but doubling Love in sack rate and significantly ahead of Purdy too.

I know there were 26 pressures, but I can guarantee you that number gets cut in half if Darnold just makes the available, easy throws.  He held the ball two more seconds after missing Addison for that early TD.  

We're quick to blame the OL for sacks, but the QB plays a significant role in that.

[TheLeviathan]

I didn't even see the bad miss on the corner route.

 

 

[Aggies7]

This reminded me of the jaguars game where he kept throwing those picks in the red zone. It seemed like he was worried about turning it over so much that he just held it for longer than he should have. Maybe I’m wrong but it seemed like he was much quicker to take off and run earlier in the season. 

[gunnarthor]

7 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

This reminded me of the jaguars game where he kept throwing those picks in the red zone. It seemed like he was worried about turning it over so much that he just held it for longer than he should have. Maybe I’m wrong but it seemed like he was much quicker to take off and run earlier in the season. 

I didn't watch the Jags game but that was generally my thought, at least close to the end zone. 

The good is that he bounced back after the Jags game. Let's see how he is next Monday. 

[TheLeviathan]

https://x.com/BaldyNFL/status/1876265991325548581

[gunnarthor]

27 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

Which play are you considering a "drop" in the endzone?

I would encourage you to go back and look at some of the plays.  There are open, easy throws and Darnold just doesn't take them.  There are two images on this page alone that are indefensibly awful QBing.  

The one where he dropped it. The announcers were all like "oh, he was probably worried about his feet but he makes that catch 99 times". 

Look, he had a bad game but it wasn't the end of times. 

[Aggies7]

5 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

https://x.com/BaldyNFL/status/1876265991325548581

That’s just so bad and painful to watch.

[TheLeviathan]

8 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

The one where he dropped it. The announcers were all like "oh, he was probably worried about his feet but he makes that catch 99 times". 

Look, he had a bad game but it wasn't the end of times. 

I mean, it was pretty painfully bad and cost them an enormous game.  I think it's worthwhile to point out that this wasn't anything other than terrible QB play.

I disagree with characterizing that as a drop.  It would've required a circus catch when that throw was an easy TD if thrown with any accuracy.

[gunnarthor]

1 minute ago, TheLeviathan said:

 I think it's worthwhile to point out that this wasn't anything other than terrible QB play.

Ignoring everything else, I think you're just wrong on this. The entire offense played poorly. I know you're trying to forgive the o-line a bit but our offense requires the QB to hold the ball an insanely long time - that's not new, Cousins took a lot of shots as well (as did Mullens and Dobbs ran a lot). But Darnold was getting hit all night. Just a brutal game by our line. And the receivers didn't help. They had drops (or the defenders hit them - sometimes early - to knock the ball out). They didn't cut off routes, like the announcers said. And often they couldn't shake basic man coverage - in Hockinson's case, man coverage by a linebacker in his first game back from injury.

And we didn't seem to make adjustments in game like we should have. No run plays inside the three when we knew we were in four down territory?  Even Jones was late to start the second half. Just a complete crud job by the offense. 

 

[TheLeviathan]

12 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

Ignoring everything else, I think you're just wrong on this. The entire offense played poorly. I know you're trying to forgive the o-line a bit but our offense requires the QB to hold the ball an insanely long time - that's not new, Cousins took a lot of shots as well (as did Mullens and Dobbs ran a lot). But Darnold was getting hit all night. Just a brutal game by our line. And the receivers didn't help. They had drops (or the defenders hit them - sometimes early - to knock the ball out). They didn't cut off routes, like the announcers said. And often they couldn't shake basic man coverage - in Hockinson's case, man coverage by a linebacker in his first game back from injury.

And we didn't seem to make adjustments in game like we should have. No run plays inside the three when we knew we were in four down territory?  Even Jones was late to start the second half. Just a complete crud job by the offense. 

 

Yeah, I don't know how you look at those replays and videos and conclude everyone else was the problem.  He had two wide open touchdowns to Addison that were clearly the go-to read and he didn't throw them.  The OL didn't do that.  Addison didn't do that.  KOC didn't do that.  

Please watch those plays - 14 points - and tell me how on earth anyone but Darnold is to blame.

The data is there: Darnold takes more hits because of his own decision making.  He holds the ball too long.  He doesn't take the easy plays.  And part of why I'm pushing is that, as Vikings fans, we've heard a really tired narrative for a long time: if you just give Cousins/Darnold an all-pro offensive line that gives them 7 seconds to throw, a field of all-pro receivers, an all-pro running back, and 50M....we'll be good!

It's a ridiculously unrealistic bar for competent QB play.  The truth is, and it's right there on video, he had plenty of time to make low difficulty throws that would've put somewhere between 3 and 5 touchdowns on the board.  The play-calls were there to beat those coverages.  The person who didn't finish the task was Darnold.  If he can't do that, then he isn't worth investing in.

And yes, it was one game.  He's earned a chance to show that it was one game.  But it was also one BRUTAL game at the worst possible time.  Making excuses for it won't change that.

[gunnarthor]

3 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

Yeah, I don't know how you look at those replays and videos and conclude everyone else was the problem.  He had two wide open touchdowns to Addison that were clearly the go-to read and he didn't throw them.  The OL didn't do that.  Addison didn't do that.  KOC didn't do that.  

Please watch those plays - 14 points - and tell me how on earth anyone but Darnold is to blame.

The data is there: Darnold takes more hits because of his own decision making.  He holds the ball too long.  He doesn't take the easy plays.  And part of why I'm pushing is that, as Vikings fans, we've heard a really tired narrative for a long time: if you just give Cousins/Darnold an all-pro offensive line that gives them 7 seconds to throw, a field of all-pro receivers, an all-pro running back, and 50M....we'll be good!

It's a ridiculously unrealistic bar for competent QB play.  The truth is, and it's right there on video, he had plenty of time to make low difficulty throws that would've put somewhere between 3 and 5 touchdowns on the board.  The play-calls were there to beat those coverages.  The person who didn't finish the task was Darnold.  If he can't do that, then he isn't worth investing in.

And yes, it was one game.  He's earned a chance to show that it was one game.  But it was also one BRUTAL game at the worst possible time.  Making excuses for it won't change that.

No one is saying he should have seven seconds or the rest of that garbage and this is your annoying strawman habit that many posters have continuously called you out on. I said everything (not everything else) was the problem based on the entire game, not just two plays. The play calling last night wasn't different than the other seventeen games and it was the most pressure we faced. We didn't adjust. 

If you want to only look at those two plays, fine, we're fans, that's ok. On the replay it looks like he is looking at Nailor, not Addison, and then moved to his next read, Jefferson. Maybe he just messed it up. But those two plays weren't the game. One play earlier, Jefferson drops a pass he should have caught. You want to say that was on Darnold, fine, I don't agree. The highest paid receiver in the game has to make that catch on the road against the best team in the league. 

That's why smart teams don't get overly up or down. They look at the whole picture. And Darnold looked pretty good this year with more games to come. 14-3 and now the playoffs. The team is ahead of schedule. 

[TheLeviathan]

2 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

No one is saying he should have seven seconds or the rest of that garbage and this is your annoying strawman habit that many posters have continuously called you out on. I said everything (not everything else) was the problem based on the entire game, not just two plays. The play calling last night wasn't different than the other seventeen games and it was the most pressure we faced. We didn't adjust. 

If you want to only look at those two plays, fine, we're fans, that's ok. On the replay it looks like he is looking at Nailor, not Addison, and then moved to his next read, Jefferson. Maybe he just messed it up. But those two plays weren't the game. One play earlier, Jefferson drops a pass he should have caught. You want to say that was on Darnold, fine, I don't agree. The highest paid receiver in the game has to make that catch on the road against the best team in the league. 

That's why smart teams don't get overly up or down. They look at the whole picture. And Darnold looked pretty good this year with more games to come. 14-3 and now the playoffs. The team is ahead of schedule. 

Your basis isn't on film though.  Of course I was being hyperbolic, but the arguments around "How do we win with Cousins" sound a lot like the arguments people are making right now in the aftermath of last night.  It was always excuse making for poor quarterbacking. No quarterback is ever going to have things perfect, you have to be able to execute what is available.  Darnold failed miserably last night.

To try and dismiss what I'm saying as "only two plays" is a far worse sin in terms of poor dialogue here.  I've clearly gone above and beyond those two plays, so diminishing it that was is certainly it's own bad form.  But let's be clear - those two plays are two easy ass touchdowns.  Like....the QB for some farm town in western MN makes those throws levels of easy.  You try to...I don't know what you're trying to do?  Protect Darnold?  Like, seriously...if he's looking at Nailor....that;s on him too!  It's right there on film - Nailor is the rub player.  Both times.  Addison is the read.  He's looking right at him!  Jefferson is a ridiculous talent, but a halfway decent throw is a touchdown.  Instead, Darnold threw it 4 feet high and behind him into the defender.  If that's a drop then I, again, have to wonder why we're protecting Darnold from criticism so freaking hard.  Hockenson was open on the out route.  Open on the seam.  He missed both times.  Misses are all over last night.  Those misses are documented in the links I posted from guys who are generally cheerleaders for Darnold calling him out on twitter.  This wasn't total systems failure.  This was total quarterback failure.  It really is that simple.

 

Hopefully, it's something he can wash away and look great like he did the last 5-6 weeks.  That doesn't change how awful he was.

[gunnarthor]

Here is SI's wrap up and PFF grades for the vikes. 

https://www.si.com/nfl/vikings/news/vikings-snap-counts-and-notable-pff-grades-from-tough-loss-to-lions-01jgyfxkkq56

"Darnold obviously had a very bad game, but he wasn't alone. Neither of his top two receivers played well, either. Nor did Hockenson, who barely missed this list. Throw in a rough day from the left side of Minnesota's offensive line, and there was just too much to overcome. Brandel and Robinson combined to allow 17 pressures, per PFF."

It also mentions Bynum missed three tackles on defense. I thought he had played pretty bad, glad PFF agrees with me, I guess? 

Ignoring everything else, I really wish Van Ginkel had pulled off that pick 6.  

[Aggies7]

I think one thing that didn’t really get mentioned was how Detroit gained some serious momentum with how they approached that game in SF. Didn’t really have anything to play for, had a zillion injuries coming in, and still chose to play their starters. Had to fight back after being down, and their defense, which was terrible, made the plays to win.

Looking back, that should have been an ominous sign. They approached that entire situation in what seems like the perfect way.

[gunnarthor]

I thought this was a good analysis of the game and what's coming up.

https://www.dailynorseman.com/2025/1/6/24337433/vikings-need-to-digest-loss-to-lions-get-right-for-the-playoffs