Mauer's 2013 Season

[Chris Schad]

I couldn't help but notice when I was reading the Star-Tribune this morning about Joe Mauer's salary and how he was nothing more than a "utility outfielder."

 

Yes, utility outfielders usually hit about .320 with an OPS around .900...all over the place. All the hatred toward Mauer is starting to wear because he's one of the best all around players in baseball.

 

I stated my case in the link below, but it's time to let 2011 go and realize what the Twins have here.

 

Y! SPORTS

[ThePuck]

I couldn't help but notice when I was reading the Star-Tribune this morning about Joe Mauer's salary and how he was nothing more than a "utility outfielder."

 

Yes, utility outfielders usually hit about .320 with an OPS around .900...all over the place. All the hatred toward Mauer is starting to wear because he's one of the best all around players in baseball.

 

I stated my case in the link below, but it's time to let 2011 go and realize what the Twins have here.

 

Y! SPORTS

 

 

Do you have a link from the Star Tribune that says that?

[Benchwarmerjim]

Do you have a link from the Star Tribune that says that?

 

it was in the 'Letters to the Editor' thing the Strib has on Page2 of the dead tree edition.

[launchingthrees]

Do we really need a new thread everytime someone posts an article on yahoo? I get that you're just trying to promote your articles but it just feels off

[Chris Schad]

Do we really need a new thread everytime someone posts an article on yahoo? I get that you're just trying to promote your articles but it just feels off

 

I'll try and find a thread that fits in with it...just trying to get my stuff out there. I appreciate the reads though.

[ThePuck]

it was in the 'Letters to the Editor' thing the Strib has on Page2 of the dead tree edition.

 

I still can't find it...but here's a post from some maroon on the Twins MLB message board:

 

'He is worthless, pathetic and a wimp in late innings. Catchers are supposed to be tough. Always trying to draw a walk in late innings when the game on the line. Of course, his homerun at his first AB in the game was a solo home run which he swung at the first pitch.

 

What a waste of an investment to Mauer and Morneau. Check this out M & M boys hogging up 46.00 % of team's pay roll but produced only 23.04 % of team's RBI and 16 % of Team's home runs.

 

Just RUBBISH !! Absolute GARBAGE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!'

 

IMO, people who write stuff like this are the worst kind of fans.

[ThePuck]

I'll try and find a thread that fits in with it...just trying to get my stuff out there. I appreciate the reads though.

 

I wouldn't worry too much about it unless one of the moderators says something.

[snepp]

I wouldn't worry too much about it unless one of the moderators says something.

 

More like one of the administrators.

 

 

John has stated on multiple occasions that they welcome the linking to content.

[Red Bull]

This season I have been in alot of battles with people about Mauer vs Molina. Some people are convinced that Molina is the better overall catcher. I find that very hard to belive. They have both played the same amount of seasons and Mauer has better career averages in every single stat category, and its not close in many of them. Mauer has had 6 seasons(Not including this season) with a WAR over 3 while Molina has had 1. And 4 of those seasons Mauers WAR was over 5, Mauers career WAR is about double Molinas. Mauers Career OPS is way higher than Molinas. Even though WAR factors in overall play people say Molina is better because of his defense, yes hes better on D but it doesnt make up for how much better Mauer has been offensively and Mauer does have 3 GGs.

 

Then they say Molina is so much better with a pitching staff and that sets him apart. He may be better(I dont think so) but that again doesnt make up for the lack of offense. I know this is dumb but if they think Molina is so much better than Mauer with a staff than why does Mauer have more Cy youngs won while behind the plate? STL has had way better pitchers than the Twins, especialy the last few years. If Mauer had the same pitchers they would be just as good.

[Scheherezade]

If Mauer keeps on pace to play about 150 games with his current slash line and defensive value, he'll end up around 7.3-7.7 WAR. That would put his 2013 season right beside his 2009 in terms of value and instantly make him another MVP candidate (although, Miggy would have to have a pretty big meltdown to lose his lead right now).

 

That's worth way more than $23 million a year.

[Benchwarmerjim]

I still can't find it...but here's a post from some maroon on the Twins MLB message board.

 

I cant find it online, so I'll type it out:

--

[i normally agree with Jim Souhan, but Sunday’s article defending Joe Mauer’s $23M salary borders on comical. Yes, relative to the other overpaid bums Souhan listed in his article, you could make an argument that Mauer is worth the money. However, when taking a peek at the numbers for the AL leaders in today’s paper, Mauer’s numbers are laughable! I thought it was Souhan who coined Mauer “the highest priced singles hitter in MLB history.” I think that is a more apt description. Yes, he plays decent defense and has a high on-base percentage, but his hitting numbers sound like those of a utility infielder at best.]

--

[Brock Beauchamp]

I cant find it online, so I'll type it out:

--

[i normally agree with Jim Souhan, but Sunday’s article defending Joe Mauer’s $23M salary borders on comical. Yes, relative to the other overpaid bums Souhan listed in his article, you could make an argument that Mauer is worth the money. However, when taking a peek at the numbers for the AL leaders in today’s paper, Mauer’s numbers are laughable! I thought it was Souhan who coined Mauer “the highest priced singles hitter in MLB history.” I think that is a more apt description. Yes, he plays decent defense and has a high on-base percentage, but his hitting numbers sound like those of a utility infielder at best.]

--

 

I... I just... I...

 

Sigh.

 

[ThePuck]

More like one of the administrators.

 

 

John has stated on multiple occasions that they welcome the linking to content.

 

indeed

[ThePuck]

I cant find it online, so I'll type it out:

--

[i normally agree with Jim Souhan, but Sunday’s article defending Joe Mauer’s $23M salary borders on comical. Yes, relative to the other overpaid bums Souhan listed in his article, you could make an argument that Mauer is worth the money. However, when taking a peek at the numbers for the AL leaders in today’s paper, Mauer’s numbers are laughable! I thought it was Souhan who coined Mauer “the highest priced singles hitter in MLB history.” I think that is a more apt description. Yes, he plays decent defense and has a high on-base percentage, but his hitting numbers sound like those of a utility infielder at best.]

--

 

Yeah, it's just ridiculous. People show their complete ignorance when they make posts like that. Thanks for finding it and posting it.

[Chris Schad]

I cant find it online, so I'll type it out:

--

[i normally agree with Jim Souhan, but Sunday’s article defending Joe Mauer’s $23M salary borders on comical. Yes, relative to the other overpaid bums Souhan listed in his article, you could make an argument that Mauer is worth the money. However, when taking a peek at the numbers for the AL leaders in today’s paper, Mauer’s numbers are laughable! I thought it was Souhan who coined Mauer “the highest priced singles hitter in MLB history.” I think that is a more apt description. Yes, he plays decent defense and has a high on-base percentage, but his hitting numbers sound like those of a utility infielder at best.]

--

 

Thanks, forgot to do it last night before falling asleep. Guess I'm old, ha.

[AScheib50]

Singles hitter? That's crazy talk. Clearly that guy didn't look that hard at the stats. Cuz Mauer is 3rd in ALL of baseball with 24 doubles. He's top 15 in OPS...slugging over .500.

 

How can people be so blind to the greatness we get to cheer for everyday? Would people still hate on him if he wasn't paid so much? I can't remember what it was like before the contract so if anyone else can refresh my memory.

 

I live in Chicago so I watch a lot of White Sox broadcasts and, I know, everyone hates Hawk but he and Steve Stone know baseball and they marvel at Mauer's abilities...I think I will take their opinions...I certainly enjoy watching him play baseball that's for sure.

[adorduan]

This season I have been in alot of battles with people about Mauer vs Molina. Some people are convinced that Molina is the better overall catcher. I find that very hard to belive. They have both played the same amount of seasons and Mauer has better career averages in every single stat category, and its not close in many of them. Mauer has had 6 seasons(Not including this season) with a WAR over 3 while Molina has had 1. And 4 of those seasons Mauers WAR was over 5, Mauers career WAR is about double Molinas. Mauers Career OPS is way higher than Molinas. Even though WAR factors in overall play people say Molina is better because of his defense, yes hes better on D but it doesnt make up for how much better Mauer has been offensively and Mauer does have 3 GGs.

 

Then they say Molina is so much better with a pitching staff and that sets him apart. He may be better(I dont think so) but that again doesnt make up for the lack of offense. I know this is dumb but if they think Molina is so much better than Mauer with a staff than why does Mauer have more Cy youngs won while behind the plate? STL has had way better pitchers than the Twins, especialy the last few years. If Mauer had the same pitchers they would be just as good.

 

No offense, but what does Cy Young's have to do with catching? That's a heck of a stretch to give much credit to the catcher for that. If Molina and Mauer were the same salary, i'd take Mauer. With a 9 million dollar difference, I'll take Molina.

[Oxtung]

Singles hitter? That's crazy talk. Clearly that guy didn't look that hard at the stats. Cuz Mauer is 3rd in ALL of baseball with 24 doubles. He's top 15 in OPS...slugging over .500.

 

How can people be so blind to the greatness we get to cheer for everyday? Would people still hate on him if he wasn't paid so much? I can't remember what it was like before the contract so if anyone else can refresh my memory.

 

I live in Chicago so I watch a lot of White Sox broadcasts and, I know, everyone hates Hawk but he and Steve Stone know baseball and they marvel at Mauer's abilities...I think I will take their opinions...I certainly enjoy watching him play baseball that's for sure.

 

I was working with my uncle today and he brought up how at 6'5" Joe should be hitting many more HR's. He made many of the same points made above, but with much less vitriol. He is slightly more than a casual fan. He knows the standings and will look at the paper to see who is leading the league in various stats but that is as far as his research goes. He also is of the generation that grew up with RBI and HR's as being defining characteristics of big hitters. I know my Uncle has no clue what OPS even is. If I tried to explain it to him he would just shrug it off as unimportant and go right along thinking HR's and RBI define hitters.

 

All this is a long way to say, I think that much of the flak Mauer takes is from fans who either haven't looked real in depth or view the game from a different perspective. I don't know who if his thought process is right or wrong and I'm not trying to make any judgements. Just trying to bring a little context to this discussion.

 

PS I quoted you AScheib but I don't know why. My point has little to do with yours. Sorry!

[mnfireman]

Molina's career best year, 2012 - .315/.373/.501 - OPS .874

Mauer's average season - .323/.406/.470 - OPS .875

 

Molina's 2012 would be Mauer's 5th best season, and is mere percentage points from being his 8th best year, (OPS .861) of 10.

Mauer's 2011 season, his worst, (OPS .729) would be Molina's 6th best and mere percentage points from being his 4th best, (OPS .749) of 10.

 

And Mauer's defense ain't too bad either.

[Oxtung]

Molina's career best year, 2012 - .315/.373/.501 - OPS .874

Mauer's average season - .323/.406/.470 - OPS .875

 

Molina's 2012 would be Mauer's 5th best season, and is mere percentage points from being his 8th best year, (OPS .861) of 10.

Mauer's 2011 season, his worst, (OPS .729) would be Molina's 6th best and mere percentage points from being his 4th best, (OPS .749) of 10.

 

And Mauer's defense ain't too bad either.

 

Isn't Yadier Molina supposed to play elite defense though? Or is that one of the other Molina's?

[Riverbrian]

Isn't Yadier Molina supposed to play elite defense though? Or is that one of the other Molina's?

 

In my opinion... Yadier Molina is tremendous behind the plate. As good as it gets.

[jm3319]

I think people just look at his salary and get pissed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Mauer mostly loved when he was making like $8-13 M a year? He had his monster year, signed the contract, then everyone wanted him to double his production to match his doubled salary. It's due to people having unrealistic expectations. A shame, people are missing how great he is. I don't see why people care about money so much.

 

I'm sure once Buxton makes $20+ M a year people will start hating him overnight, too.

[adorduan]

In my opinion... Yadier Molina is tremendous behind the plate. As good as it gets.

 

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^. Defensively on a scale of 1 to 10, Molina is a 10 and Mauer is about a 6, IMO. Mauer has never had a 1 or higher DWAR for a season and was a -.8 last year, Molina has had 7 seasons over 1 and has never had a negative DWAR. If you add up WAR and DWAR, Molinas year last year (9.3)was better than any year Mauer has had (2009, 8.3).

[adorduan]

I still can't find it...but here's a post from some maroon on the Twins MLB message board:

 

'He is worthless, pathetic and a wimp in late innings. Catchers are supposed to be tough. Always trying to draw a walk in late innings when the game on the line. Of course, his homerun at his first AB in the game was a solo home run which he swung at the first pitch.

 

What a waste of an investment to Mauer and Morneau. Check this out M & M boys hogging up 46.00 % of team's pay roll but produced only 23.04 % of team's RBI and 16 % of Team's home runs.

 

Just RUBBISH !! Absolute GARBAGE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!'

 

IMO, people who write stuff like this are the worst kind of fans.

 

Well, part of this is correct. Morneau isn't coming close to earning his $15 million a year.

[Brock Beauchamp]

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^. Defensively on a scale of 1 to 10, Molina is a 10 and Mauer is about a 6, IMO. Mauer has never had a 1 or higher DWAR for a season and was a -.8 last year, Molina has had 7 seasons over 1 and has never had a negative DWAR. If you add up WAR and DWAR, Molinas year last year (9.3)was better than any year Mauer has had (2009, 8.3).

 

Except that dWAR is already counted in WAR.

 

That's like saying you should add Mauer's 2009 oWAR to his WAR, which brings his total to an absurd 15.4.

 

I'd only rate Mauer at a 6 defensively last season... This year, he looks more like an 8. Still not as good as Yadier but much improved. Defensive metrics can be unreliable at a normal position but they're really sketchy for catchers. They're nice to reference but I wouldn't treat them as gospel.

[DaveW]

IMO catching is all about the eyeball test, Mauer is just fine and one of the better defensive catchers in the game. Of all catchers all time only Mike Piazza has a higher career OPS then him (I think Posey might too, but lets wait a few years on that)

[2wins87]

Isn't Yadier Molina supposed to play elite defense though? Or is that one of the other Molina's?

 

Molina definitely has elite defense. Fangraphs puts his career defensive runs above average at 72.5 and baseball reference at 90. Mauer's totals are -3.7 and -8 respectively, which is basically average. Mauer also hits way better than the average catcher which is what has made him so valuable. Until recently, Molina never hit well enough to compare with Mauer, even with his elite defense.

 

I think it's an interesting question to consider which will be better going forward. There have always been questions about whether Mauer was too tall to play catcher and whether this would make him burn out faster. If this season is any indication, he's still doing fine.* Molina has the traditional catcher build, but this also means that he is a bit on the heavier side, which has been correlated with earlier declines.

 

If I had to pick a player going forward without considering salary, I'd take Mauer with his superior athleticism and longer track record of success. He'll also be more likely to remain valuable even while playing less time at catcher. Molina's value is much more tied to his being a great catcher, and it's not easy for anyone to keep playing catcher through their mid-30s whether they are 6'5" or 5'11". Will Mauer be worth $9 million a year more than Molina over the next 5 and a half seasons? Maybe, but probably not.

 

Still, Mauer is already starting to compare favorably to many Hall of Fame catchers. And with a few more solid seasons at catcher he'll be a virtual lock. I think we need to appreciate that as fans.

 

*Side note: I think Mauer's success at catcher while being so tall sometimes goes unappreciated, since he has managed to at fracture one of baseball's long held perceptions that tall guys can't stay at catcher. Would Matt Wieters have gone 5th overall in 2007 if the only comparison for a 6'5" catcher was still Larry McLean?

[Oxtung]

Molina definitely has elite defense. Fangraphs puts his career defensive runs above average at 72.5 and baseball reference at 90. Mauer's totals are -3.7 and -8 respectively, which is basically average. Mauer also hits way better than the average catcher which is what has made him so valuable. Until recently, Molina never hit well enough to compare with Mauer, even with his elite defense.

 

I think it's an interesting question to consider which will be better going forward. There have always been questions about whether Mauer was too tall to play catcher and whether this would make him burn out faster. If this season is any indication, he's still doing fine.* Molina has the traditional catcher build, but this also means that he is a bit on the heavier side, which has been correlated with earlier declines.

 

If I had to pick a player going forward without considering salary, I'd take Mauer with his superior athleticism and longer track record of success. He'll also be more likely to remain valuable even while playing less time at catcher. Molina's value is much more tied to his being a great catcher, and it's not easy for anyone to keep playing catcher through their mid-30s whether they are 6'5" or 5'11". Will Mauer be worth $9 million a year more than Molina over the next 5 and a half seasons? Maybe, but probably not.

 

Still, Mauer is already starting to compare favorably to many Hall of Fame catchers. And with a few more solid seasons at catcher he'll be a virtual lock. I think we need to appreciate that as fans.

 

*Side note: I think Mauer's success at catcher while being so tall sometimes goes unappreciated, since he has managed to at fracture one of baseball's long held perceptions that tall guys can't stay at catcher. Would Matt Wieters have gone 5th overall in 2007 if the only comparison for a 6'5" catcher was still Larry McLean?

 

That was a very well thought out and well written post! You bring up some interesting questions that don't often get asked around here with regards to Mauer's height.

 

I think Molina's body type compares with IRod. Molina is 5'11" 220lbs while Pudge was 5'9" and 205 according to BRef. Pudge obviously played into his late 30's and was an elite catcher that remained there his whole career. There is no guarantee Molina is going to decline quickly going forward just because he is a little heavier. It is certainly interesting to discuss.

[ThePuck]

When we are talking salary...what a player is worth...we also need to consider what kind of fan draw they are. In other words, since the owners are paying the player, when they pay a player they have to consider on-field and off-field value.

 

Last year, according to Fangraphs, Mauer was worth 21.5M. Just for on-field. He's having a better year this year in most regards.

[ashbury]

Singles hitter? That's crazy talk. Clearly that guy didn't look that hard at the stats. Cuz Mauer is 3rd in ALL of baseball with 24 doubles. He's top 15 in OPS...slugging over .500.

 

Yes, but in all fairness, due to his speed on the basepaths he's no more likely to score on a subsequent base hit than if he'd stopped at first base in the first place.