Resolving the Apparent Infield Logjam

[TwinsDr2021]

2 hours ago, wabene said:

 I'd wager his team has gotten more out of the same players. Especially pitching development. Their record bears this out. 

Is this sarcasm? Beside Ober what starting pitching has been developed? Yes they have done good on relief pitching (well kind of since they have had some pretty bad years) on the Offense who has developed? Jeffers, yes, Julien looks like it, and Lewis the number one pick in the draft. Oh wait, it must be all the guys in the minors ready to step up, oh maybe not?

Catcher - FA (10 million), Jeffers

1B - FA (5.25), AK (drafted prior)

2B - Julien - Looking real good

SS - Correa (FA - 230 million)

3B - Lewis - Looks great when not hurt

Utility - Miranda (drafted prior), Farmer traded for and resigned, Castro (FA)

LF - Wallner - jury still out

CF - Buston - drafted prior

RF - Kepler - drafted prior

Martin - traded for (Berrrios), Margot (FA)

And this is a record that bears out pitching (or really any) development?

(I have praised them for trades, generally they have done pretty well for the most part)

 

[TwinsDr2021]

1 hour ago, wabene said:

Did anyone think moving Polo would bring back a front line starter? DeSclafani was not the reason for this trade. He was 4m gamble on providing excess starter value. Their thinking was if he was healthy he had proven to be good. If not, Louie gets his chance. Guess what? That's exactly what happened.

So what you are saying is this Front Office got together and said lets pick up Polanco's 10.5 million dollar option so we can buy a good prospect, and minor league player, a relief pitcher and a iffy type starter and tell the fans we have to cut payroll?

I don't believe that for one second, I think they thought they could pick up Polanco's contract (Which is pretty reasonable) and swap him and maybe a prospect or two for a good pitcher, and when that turned out to be not true, they did what they did.

[wabene]

1 hour ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Is this sarcasm? Beside Ober what starting pitching has been developed?

Are you kidding me? People get caught up in the origin of said player when deciding whether to give the front office credit. Weren't a great many of Cleveland's vaunted pitching pipeline development matrix actually acquired by trade? Besides Ober? I'd argue any pitcher currently having success on the roster has been positively impacted by Maki and crew. A good approach might simply be to compare pitching staff statistics from each regime.

[wabene]

1 hour ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

So what you are saying is this Front Office got together and said lets pick up Polanco's 10.5 million dollar option so we can buy a good prospect, and minor league player, a relief pitcher and a iffy type starter and tell the fans we have to cut payroll?

I don't believe that for one second, I think they thought they could pick up Polanco's contract (Which is pretty reasonable) and swap him and maybe a prospect or two for a good pitcher, and when that turned out to be not true, they did what they did.

I believe you may be right here. They found themselves priced out of any quality pitching in the market that developed. I think they thought with Julien at second that first base was the hole. So they grabbed Santana which did not inspire me.

[wabene]

1 hour ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

on the Offense who has developed?

Yep the bats have lagged and they may have gotten rid of the wrong ones. Poor self scouting? CES looked like a monster to me before the trade. I didn't like that but I thought Steer was limited and apparently was wrong there.

[TwinsDr2021]

11 minutes ago, wabene said:

Are you kidding me? People get caught up in the origin of said player when deciding whether to give the front office credit. Weren't a great many of Cleveland's vaunted pitching pipeline development matrix actually acquired by trade? Besides Ober? I'd argue any pitcher currently having success on the roster has been positively impacted by Maki and crew. A good approach might simply be to compare pitching staff statistics from each regime.

I am not, and I am not caught up on Origin, I truly believe in trading pieces for prospects and the vice versa, what I am asking is who you believe they developed? There have been a couple of picks (which I mentioned) and ton that can't stay healthy. They traded for Maeda, Gray, Odo, Paddack, Ryan and Lopez, and for the most part no I don't believe trading for these pitches (except may Odo for a minute) do they get to take credit for developing, a little? yes for sure. As for the bullpen they should get partial credit for Alcala and Duran if they stay healthy and continue to pitch well, and a some for Stewart (who also can't stay healthy). As for the pen, I don't think taking starters and turning them into relief pitchers is all that uncommon, I mean isn't that exactly what the last FO did, Eddie, Perkins, Pressly, Rogers, May, Duffey, Fien, Duensing, Boyer, Guerrier, Swarzak, Burton, bullpen from the last FO was really the least of the worries.

Have they or did they develop Kepler, Polanco, Sano, Buxton and others into better players?

I'm am not saying this FO needs to be fired or is terrible, but I am also not going to give them extra credit when they have been allowed spend double what was previously allowed from the Owners and I am also not saying the past FO deserved to be employed even as long as they did.

[Mike Sixel]

27 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

I am not, and I am not caught up on Origin, I truly believe in trading pieces for prospects and the vice versa, what I am asking is who you believe they developed? There have been a couple of picks (which I mentioned) and ton that can't stay healthy. They traded for Maeda, Gray, Odo, Paddack, Ryan and Lopez, and for the most part no I don't believe trading for these pitches (except may Odo for a minute) do they get to take credit for developing, a little? yes for sure. As for the bullpen they should get partial credit for Alcala and Duran if they stay healthy and continue to pitch well, and a some for Stewart (who also can't stay healthy). As for the pen, I don't think taking starters and turning them into relief pitchers is all that uncommon, I mean isn't that exactly what the last FO did, Eddie, Perkins, Pressly, Rogers, May, Duffey, Fien, Duensing, Boyer, Guerrier, Swarzak, Burton, bullpen from the last FO was really the least of the worries.

Have they or did they develop Kepler, Polanco, Sano, Buxton and others into better players?

I'm am not saying this FO needs to be fired or is terrible, but I am also not going to give them extra credit when they have been allowed spend double what was previously allowed from the Owners and I am also not saying the past FO deserved to be employed even as long as they did.

Are you suggesting Ryan was a finished product when they acquired him? He was a number three pitcher traded for three months of a DH?

[TwinsDr2021]

1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

Are you suggesting Ryan was a finished product when they acquired him? He was a number three pitcher traded for three months of a DH?

Are you suggesting a guy that had a 4.51 ERA last year is a finished product, which was almost a full run higher than the prior year? I loved the trade, it was a great to amazing trade, but the guy pitched 1 minor league game and then was called up and pitched 5 games with a 4.05 ERA and 30 K's in 26 innings. I will gladly give them credit for his 22 season, but than to be fair have to give them credit for his results in 23, no?

[Mike Sixel]

57 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Are you suggesting a guy that had a 4.51 ERA last year is a finished product, which was almost a full run higher than the prior year? I loved the trade, it was a great to amazing trade, but the guy pitched 1 minor league game and then was called up and pitched 5 games with a 4.05 ERA and 30 K's in 26 innings. I will gladly give them credit for his 22 season, but than to be fair have to give them credit for his results in 23, no?

I'm suggesting they developed him to what he is. In response to saying they've developed no one. He was 77th in era last year among pitchers throwing 100 innings or more, so ya, he's a number three. 

[KirbyDome89]

3 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Are you suggesting Ryan was a finished product when they acquired him? He was a number three pitcher traded for three months of a DH?

He threw a whopping 9 innings at AAA for the Twins before being called up in 2021 .

There isn't some massive dip, or uptick in his ML performance over the last 3 years. 

[Mike Sixel]

1 minute ago, KirbyDome89 said:

He threw a whopping 9 innings at AAA for the Twins before being called up in 2021 .

There isn't some massive dip, or uptick in his ML performance over the last 3 years. 

So, no credit for coaching at the MLB level? If anyone thought he was a number three when traded, he'd have brought back a lot more than he did. We'll just disagree, I'm ok with that. 

[KirbyDome89]

17 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

So, no credit for coaching at the MLB level? If anyone thought he was a number three when traded, he'd have brought back a lot more than he did. We'll just disagree, I'm ok with that. 

Was he a markedly different pitcher last season than he was in 2021? I'd argue no. I've always viewed Ryan as a 4-5 so yeah we'll disagree. 

[Mike Sixel]

4 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

Was he a markedly different pitcher last season than he was in 2021? I'd argue no. I've always viewed Ryan as a 4-5 so yeah we'll disagree. 

4-5? Compared to what other pitchers? Wow.

[KirbyDome89]

6 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

4-5? Compared to what other pitchers? Wow.

A lack of a consistently good secondary pitch. A significant performance gap between starts made in division vs. out of division over his career. Yeah, I've always viewed Ryan as somebody I want starting game 4 or sliding to the pen for a postseason series. Idk, is there a big gap between a 3 or 4?