Twins Trade Bait

[snepp]

For posterity.

 

Out of context!

[Oxtung]

If the point of the game on offense is to score runs then a rbi has value. It measures the batter's contribution to the goal.

Others will tell you that you are incorrect on the correlation to runs scored. Does OPS Correlate Better To Runs Scored Than RBI? | Mets Merized Online

 

That link has no correlation study as others have said. They compare team rankings, not actual team numbers. Logically, of course you're probably right anyways about RBI correlation. That doesn't change the fact that RBI doesn't tell us anything helpful about a player.

[Brodin4Calder]

That link has no correlation study as others have said. They compare team rankings, not actual team numbers. Logically, of course you're probably right anyways about RBI correlation. That doesn't change the fact that RBI doesn't tell us anything helpful about a player.

 

You are crazy if you think RBIs dont tell us anything helpful about a batter. They tell us that the batter can get hits with RISP, without RBIs you cant win games.

 

What you just said means that you think that if 2 players have a BA of .300 and have had the same amount of RISP but 1 player got more of his hits when he had RISP and has 30RBIs, and the other got more of his hits when nobody was on and he has 15RBIs but you think they are equaly as good because they have the same BA, XBH, OPS.... That is just ridiculous, clutch hitting is one of the most important things in baseball. Being clutch is one of the most important things in any sport.

[snepp]

Anecdotes and cliches.

[jokin]

You are crazy if you think RBIs dont tell us anything helpful about a batter. They tell us that the batter can get hits with RISP, without RBIs you cant win games.

 

What you just said means that you think that if 2 players have a BA of .300 and have had the same amount of RISP but 1 player got more of his hits when he had RISP and has 30RBIs, and the other got more of his hits when nobody was on and he has 15RBIs but you think they are equaly as good because they have the same BA, XBH, OPS.... That is just ridiculous, clutch hitting is one of the most important things in baseball. Being clutch is one of the most important things in any sport.

 

"Are You Experienced?"

[LaBombo]

That is just ridiculous, clutch hitting is one of the most important things in baseball. Being clutch is one of the most important things in any sport.

How many players are consistently, significantly better or worse hitters "in the clutch" over their careers than in non-clutch situations?

 

Hardly any, which is why OBA and OPS are almost universally accepted yardsticks of hitter performance, while useless stats like RISP and L&C are obscure numbers relegated to the bottom of the ESPN splits page and DickBert talking points during the game's 8th pitching change.

[LaBombo]

"Are You Experienced?"

It would explain a couple of issues....

[The Wise One]

A moderator complains of the quality of a thread while adding nothing of quality and continuing the muck. too funny

[snepp]

You point out where I complained about the "quality" of this thread, and I'll ignore your blatant bit of trolling. I'm only a moderator if/when the need arises, the other 99.99% of the time I'm just another commenter.

 

Also, if you have a problem, either use the post report function, or address an administrator.

 

Your cooperation in this matter is appreciated.

[Brodin4Calder]

How many players are consistently, significantly better or worse hitters "in the clutch" over their careers than in non-clutch situations?

 

Hardly any, which is why OBA and OPS are almost universally accepted yardsticks of hitter performance, while useless stats like RISP and L&C are obscure numbers relegated to the bottom of the ESPN splits page and DickBert talking points during the game's 8th pitching change.

 

You truly think in your head you know everything dont you, you sound so dumb its not even funny. How can you say that driving in runs doesnt mean anything about a batter? Thats just insane kid, you look at baseball as if its math class. Its not, to win games you have to drive in runs and Morneau is doing that.

 

I get that you have probably never played baseball but when a batter comes up to the plate with runners on its a whole different at bat then when theres no runners on. If that batter can get them in thats all that matters, does that not make sense to you?

[Oxtung]

You are crazy if you think RBIs dont tell us anything helpful about a batter. They tell us that the batter can get hits with RISP, without RBIs you cant win games.

 

What you just said means that you think that if 2 players have a BA of .300 and have had the same amount of RISP but 1 player got more of his hits when he had RISP and has 30RBIs, and the other got more of his hits when nobody was on and he has 15RBIs but you think they are equaly as good because they have the same BA, XBH, OPS.... That is just ridiculous, clutch hitting is one of the most important things in baseball. Being clutch is one of the most important things in any sport.

 

RBI's tell you nothing about how a player hits with RISP. For his career Joe Mauer has a .344 avg, .960 OPS with 492 RBI's. Justin Morneau has a .286 avg, .861 OPS with 570 RBI's.

 

So Mauer clearly is a better hitter and yet doesn't have as many RBI's. Why? Because Morneau has had >200 more plate appearances than Joe with RISP. It's simple, Mauer always hitting in front of Morneau and being on base lead directly to Morneau's RBI totals.

 

If you believe in "clutchiness" and think it applies to driving runs in then look at the stat that directly measures it. RISP.

 

So to recap, RBI's tell you nothing of value about a batter.

[diehardtwinsfan]

You are crazy if you think RBIs dont tell us anything helpful about a batter. They tell us that the batter can get hits with RISP, without RBIs you cant win games.

 

What you just said means that you think that if 2 players have a BA of .300 and have had the same amount of RISP but 1 player got more of his hits when he had RISP and has 30RBIs, and the other got more of his hits when nobody was on and he has 15RBIs but you think they are equaly as good because they have the same BA, XBH, OPS.... That is just ridiculous, clutch hitting is one of the most important things in baseball. Being clutch is one of the most important things in any sport.

 

The problem with this that you seem to be ignoring is that "clutch" is not a repeatable skill. They may have one year where they hit .350 with RISP, and then follow up the next year hitting a measly .220. Over a career, one's "clutchness" tends to trend towards their career average, and there is plenty of evidence towards this.

 

I'll make it real easy to prove this. Name 10 present day major leaguers who are clutch, and base it only on their RBI totals. Once you've done this, we can look into their careers a bit closer.

 

Whether you like it or not, RBIs are very much a team dependent thing. Other than by home runs, you won't be racking up RBIs when the guys in front of you don't get on base. And in the event that the guys in front of you do get on base, you'll find plenty of situations where a hitter gets an RBI without ever reaching first base. RBIs are team stats. I'm far more interested in how a team as a whole gets them, and the best way to get lots of RBIs is to stack a lineup full of guys with high OBP/OPS.

[The Wise One]

You point out where I complained about the "quality" of this thread, and I'll ignore your blatant bit of trolling. I'm only a moderator if/when the need arises, the other 99.99% of the time I'm just another commenter.

 

Also, if you have a problem, either use the post report function, or address an administrator.

 

Your cooperation in this matter is appreciated.

 

Trolling? No, more like calling out dispespectfull behavior from someone who puts not just moderator, but supermoderator with their avatar. You can call it trolling rather than accepting the fact you added disrespect and muck.

[Kobs]

You are crazy if you think RBIs dont tell us anything helpful about a batter. They tell us that the batter can get hits with RISP, without RBIs you cant win games.

 

So, to find out if a batter can get hits with RISP, you decide to rely on a number other than, say...the percentage of the time they get hits with RISP? It's an interesting way to do it, I grant you, but I'm not sure it is the right way to go about it.

[Kobs]

As an aside, high RBI totals come from home runs, not clutch hits.

[beckmt]

Clutch hitting has been defined in some camps as runners in scoring position and 2 outs. I agree that trends like this vary greatly from year to year and have many factors. Probably they end up being about the players lifetime average. Let us look at the other factors. 1. Who is hitting behind you and how hot are they at this time. 2. Does the team have a pitcher who owns either the current hitter or the one behind the current hitter. 3. Failing 2, does the team have a pitcher who can work to the current hitters weakness or perceived weakness. Example, at the current time a lot of teams are shifting for Joe Mauer and pitching him hard outside, inviting him to hit the ball in the air to left or roll it over to the right side. Morneau is being pitched outside, so he cannot pull the ball in the air and have 3 infielders from close to second to first. These are the types of things I am referencing. Younger pitchers have a harder time of hitting their spots. Established pitchers also get the benefit of some expansion of the strike zone from most experienced umps. What Lackey did to the Twins today comfirms the hitting issues.

[beckmt]

Expect the Twins will be moving players at the deadline. Expectations in the following order: 1 Morneau 2. Carroll 3. Willingham 4. Whatever starter is going well and will bring a decent return 5. Perkins/Burton Twins still need to bring pitching into the system, with stuff arms. It will depend on return as to which players get moved. Morneau's chances go down if Parmalee does not start hitting, otherwise extension is possible with Parmalee being included in another deal to bring back a higher quality return.

[Oxtung]

Morneau's chances go down if Parmalee does not start hitting, otherwise extension is possible with Parmalee being included in another deal to bring back a higher quality return.

 

Several people have made comments similar to this about trading Parmelee. If you don't think he is good enough for a bottom feeder team like the Twins why would another GM want him? And if another GM doesn't want him how does he bring back any prospects either by himself or as an add in?

[kab21]

People just need to remember that if you never played baseball you clearly don't know anything about baseball. It's also impossible for someone to have both studied baseball and played baseball. These are mutually exclusive skillsets. Once you start living in your parent's basement studying basic statistics you have completely forgotten what it is like to play the game. Long live clutchiness.

[jokin]

Several people have made comments similar to this about trading Parmelee. If you don't think he is good enough for a bottom feeder team like the Twins why would another GM want him? And if another GM doesn't want him how does he bring back any prospects either by himself or as an add in?

 

Even Valencia brought back a Rookie League player, Pineda, who was leading the GCL in BA at the time. Decks get shuffled, being able to deal Parm for something of value will require some extended period of relative success.

[snepp]

People just need to remember that if you never played baseball you clearly don't know anything about baseball. It's also impossible for someone to have both studied baseball and played baseball. These are mutually exclusive skillsets. Once you start living in your parent's basement studying basic statistics you have completely forgotten what it is like to play the game. Long live clutchiness.

 

What about living in your own basement? Where would that rank someone?

 

[Brodin4Calder]

People just need to remember that if you never played baseball you clearly don't know anything about baseball. It's also impossible for someone to have both studied baseball and played baseball. These are mutually exclusive skillsets. Once you start living in your parent's basement studying basic statistics you have completely forgotten what it is like to play the game. Long live clutchiness.

 

Exactly. You can look at all the stats you want but if you have never actualy stood in a batters box you dont know anything. So many people on here are diving way to far into stats. Morneau is driving in runs, getting hits and playing great D. Yea it would be nice to see some more XBH but I cant believe some people are saying hes untradable right now. Hahaha! When your in the box with guys on its a whole different at bat then when the bases are clear.

[snepp]

*whoosh*

[GCTF]

*whoosh*

 

Where's Captain Picard when you need him?

[Mike Sixel]

/s

 

someone missed that part....

[kab21]

I'm speechless.

[kab21]

I read somewhere that Morneau hired a prominent motivational speaker this offseason to work on his clutchiness. That accounts for the improvement from .625 OPS last season to .764 this season. Word is that Mauer has started working with him to become more clutch since he only has 13 RBI's this year.

[ThePuck]

someone is in a jocular mood...

[PseudoSABR]

Clutch is a myth, but capacity to buckle under pressure is not. In any case, the only measures (and very poor at that) of such a thing might be blown saves.

[PseudoSABR]

I read somewhere that Morneau hired a prominent motivational speaker this offseason to work on his clutchiness. That accounts for the improvement from .625 OPS last season to .764 this season. Word is that Mauer has started working with him to become more clutch since he only has 13 RBI's this year.

My pricing is on a sliding scale, everyone.