Correia's KC start backlash

[Guest USAFChief]

IN light of GArdy's postgame quotes, this really seems to be the crux of the issue, which is a shame. By asking Correia to get that strikeout of Gordon, he not only setup his team to blow their lead, but he transferred the blame onto Correia instead risking that he take any blame in the event that Burton or someone more qualified to get a strikeout in that spot were to fail.

That's a good point. And now that you've articulated it so well, I have a better feel for why, although I've been a Gardy defender, I started to form the opinion last year that it's time for a new manager. I don't hate Gardy, but these types of things (and your "weary" post below) ave sort of evolved into the new "Twins way." I think it needs to change for the organization to move forward, and a new voice in the dugout is probably a necessary dynamic.

[TheLeviathan]

I will let everyone else be the judge on why the tone tends to be negative on every move the organization makes. (I know I will get 100 responses about back to back poopy seasons so spare me that response please, my brother)

 

I guess I must have imagined that "Hey, we're in first place!" thread that was all positivity. Some people are just never satisfied until they can label everyone else negative to make themselves feel like a real fan.

[Otto von Ballpark]

So how did Gardy's decision Monday turn out in the longer view of the whole series?

 

I think Gardy was thinking, "my starters haven't been getting past the fifth or sixth at best, except for Correia, and I used my bullpen a lot against Detroit and Baltimore, so I want to squeeze Correia as long as possible and give my bullpen a break today."

 

Problem is, squeezing a guy like Correia as long as possible, starting the fourth time through the batting order in a 1-run game on the road is almost certainly going to wind up in a loss and/or a much longer game (if they tie and it goes into extra innings). The Twins only had 3 offensive outs left, and the Royals were guaranteed the last at-bat. Not only that, the Royals had their full bullpen available as Ervin Santana had already completed 8 innings (maybe influencing Gardy's decision to push Correia to do the same?) and the Twins had batters 6-7-8 due up in the 9th.

 

And what was the result? The normal 8th inning guy who would have been saved by an extra inning from Correia (Burton) had to get up quickly and pitch anyway, although we were already behind by the time he was ready. Because we fell behind and lost, Perkins wasn't needed for the ninth, so I guess that's a silver lining. But neither guy was needed in the next two games of the series, which was followed by an off-day today (Thursday).

 

So our bullpen aces, Perkins and Burton, have plenty of rest now (3-4 days). But after that initial activity against Detroit and Baltimore, it appears they've actually been used less overall than comparable relief aces on most other teams, and I think our record has 1 win less to show for it.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Also, looking back at game logs, Correia has only completed 8 innings 4 times in 161 MLB starts. He's done it while leading by 8, leading by 4, trailing 2-0 to Felix Hernandez, and losing 1-0 way back in 2005.

[Twins Twerp]

I guess I must have imagined that "Hey, we're in first place!" thread that was all positivity. Some people are just never satisfied until they can label everyone else negative to make themselves feel like a real fan.

I thought I made it clear when I said some of the website members TEND to be negative. Now if you interpreted that to mean "Everyone" then you misunderstood me. In fact, you misunderstood the post. The point was that the majority (majority being over half) of the people that post are usually ripping on things. My POINT was to find out the reason. Also didn't mean to offend anyone. I'm not sure what a "real fan" is. When I go to Twins games I see a lot of Twins fans and we have a good time. Most people I know in Northern North Dakota (where snow is on the ground 9 months out of the year) watch the Twins every night and follow them during day games. Those are real fans, fans who are diehard and live and die with the twins. When the Twins don't win, the next day is a little different, the mood a little melancholy. Even the students watch and follow the twins on a daily basis. I would define those as "real fans."

[snepp]

I thought I made it clear when I said some of the website members TEND to be negative.

 

I re-read your previous post, nowhere do you say anything about "some members." His conclusion was pretty reasonable given the content and delivery of your post.

[Aaron Cross]

I love how this thread has turned into petty bickering. So much for the rave reviews I've heard about TD. Rather than focus on the topic, we got people crying that I said "learn the game". Don't be such babies!

[snepp]

So you take a shot that the baseball intellect of others, then have the gall to call those same people out for their reaction?

[Aaron Cross]

Whaaaaaaaaa

[Twins Twerp]

So, from going over this post, the general thought is it we understand why KC was brought out and some of us agree with that. But most of us think that Burton should have been warmed up and brought in when poop hit the fan? Minus the name calling and bickering (which I admit I dove into head first), the argument is actually amazing. People sit on both sides and both have good points. This is what TD is about. Most people on here know baseball. Baseball is an easy game to second guess, and that is why people come to this site. I love football but I am going to have to say that managing a baseball game is more strategy based than football, it pains me to say.

[UCLA_YANKEE_COLA]

Whaaaaaaaaa

 

Oh man. Go to the mirror and high five yourself because you just won an internet showdown by calling people babies! Then you were like "uh-uh, I'M NOT FINISHED" and then you added "Whaaaaa" which was pretty much like your finishing move. Very impressive. At first I didnt' know if I should take you seriously. But now? Well now I would let you raise my child.

[snepp]

Then you were like "uh-uh, I'M NOT FINISHED" and then you added "Whaaaaa" which was pretty much like your finishing move.

 

Major SNES flashback.

 

 

[Aaron Cross]

I absolutely reserve the right to tell anyone disagreeing with me on this issue to "learn the game". The Gardenhire hate for leaving Correia in is ridiculous. It was clearly the right move. Anyone thinking otherwise is simply clueless. Correia was in complete control. It was his game. Let him win it or lose it himself. Any pitcher worth his weight wants the ball in that situation. Pulling him would have been ridiculous. Nothing is more destructive to a team than pulling a pitcher when he's still pitching strong and having it blown by the bullpen. Stop the Gardenhire hating. He has his faults, but leaving Correia in isn't one of them!

[Aaron Cross]

Oh man. Go to the mirror and high five yourself because you just won an internet showdown by calling people babies! Then you were like "uh-uh, I'M NOT FINISHED" and then you added "Whaaaaa" which was pretty much like your finishing move. Very impressive. At first I didnt' know if I should take you seriously. But now? Well now I would let you raise my child.

Oh, you're so clever!

[Guest USAFChief]

Any pitcher worth his weight wants the ball in that situation.

Perhaps you've stumbled upon the crux of the situation.

[snepp]

You have the right to tell others what you think of them, but they can't tell you what they think lest they be labeled babies.

 

You've made your superiority perfectly clear.

[Aaron Cross]

I sure have.

[edavis0308]

Finally, the 12 year olds have come out of the cracks!

[jokin]

Whaaaaaaaaa.....I sure have.

 

Somebody who clearly knows his way from the descent to "petty bickering"

[Steve Penz]

I need to come to the next happy hour just to see you people interact face-to-face without throwing hands. Maybe the TD staff will rent one of those Sumo rings so you all can safely kick the crap out of each other.

[snepp]

That would be so awesome. I volunteer to host the event, that way I can tell Chief to get off MY lawn.

[Riverbrian]

 

Correia, last year, had his best year in three years. He NEVER pitched more than 7 innings last year and he only pitched 7 innings 3 times. AGAIN, NOT ONE TIME did he pitch past 7 innings. He only pitched more than 6 innings 5 times. That's it.

 

Also, looking back at game logs, Correia has only completed 8 innings 4 times in 161 MLB starts. He's done it while leading by 8, leading by 4, trailing 2-0 to Felix Hernandez, and losing 1-0 way back in 2005.

 

A picture is being painted here... In Fairness... If you throw out the 15 times that Kevin Correia threw 6 innings in 2012... Yes it is true that Kevin Correia only pitched OVER 6 innings 3 times. Yet he did throw 6 innings 18 times. It depends on how you want to paint it.

 

Jordan Zimmerman never pitched over 7 innings in 2012.

 

I get that Correia isn't Clayton Kershaw.

 

However, in the era of Pitch Counts. Starting Pitchers throwing over 7 innings is a rare thing and you don't get the chance to throw over 7 innings unless your pitch count says you can.

 

His Pitch Count was 84! 12 Pitches per inning. A 7 inning shut-out, 5 hits and 1 free pass and he was one batter over the minimum from the 3rd inning to the 8th.

[nicksaviking]

Any pitcher worth his weight wants the ball in that situation. Pulling him would have been ridiculous. Nothing is more destructive to a team than pulling a pitcher when he's still pitching strong and having it blown by the bullpen. Stop the Gardenhire hating. He has his faults, but leaving Correia in isn't one of them!

 

Sounds right. Why does a team need a manager to make pitching changes when the starter can decide for himself? Surely pulling him would have been more destructive than losing the game itself.

 

Correia needed to be pulled because he does not have the ability to strike batters out and the Twins were up one run while a runner was on third in the 8th inning with less than two outs. This isn't 1980, the other 29 teams have learned that the strikeout is the most efficient way to prevent runs.

 

Grab Gardy, Terry Ryan and go take a class from Brian Sabean or Dave Dombrowski. Learn the game.

[TheLeviathan]

I can't wait to see if Gardy's logic about Correia being left in there to get a strikeout applies when we, say, need a homerun from Joe Mauer.

[IdahoPilgrim]

Are we still arguing about this 3 days later?

 

When an issue has been debated to death and the thread has descending into petty bickering, maybe it's time for the thread to be closed/locked.

[Guest USAFChief]

That would be so awesome. I volunteer to host the event, that way I can tell Chief to get off MY lawn.

Huh...wha?? Speak up sonny.

[Squirrel]

Whaaaaaaaaa

 

Oh, man ... I read this whole thread and come to this? Am I allowed to say 'Grow up!' ... or is that against the rules?

 

Sheesh, really.

[Otto von Ballpark]

His Pitch Count was 84! 12 Pitches per inning. A 7 inning shut-out, 5 hits and 1 free pass and he was one batter over the minimum from the 3rd inning to the 8th.

Just to clarify: I think most of us had no problem with him starting the 8th. He was cruising, pitch count was fine, and the 8-9 hitters were due up to start the inning. But there should have been someone warming, and after the leadoff double by the 8 hitter, and especially with the runner on third, 1 out for the top of the order, he probably should have been pulled.

 

I even think Gardy normally does this -- he's pretty good with bullpens overall -- but he was trying to over-compensate for general weakness in the rotation. Also, he doesn't really know Correia yet. A quick scan of game logs shows that Correia has never completed 8 innings in a tie game or with a lead of less than 4. He's not a pitcher you try to force through the 8th inning, 4th time through the batting order, once there are already runners in scoring position, just to give a non-critical "breather" to your "8th inning guy" in the bullpen. (Not a lot of starters are that kind of pitcher anymore, but Correia's record and skill set are particularly not inclined to that task.) And I suspect Gardenhire learned this the hard way - he lost the game and had to use his "8th inning guy" anyway.

[snepp]

Huh...wha?? Speak up sonny.

 

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[Guest USAFChief]

http://images.inmagine.com/400nwm/iris/masterfile-291/ptg01413521.jpg

That's my favorite smoking jacket.