Correia's KC start backlash

[Aaron Cross]

To all the people whining Gardy didn't pull him after 7 innings.........

learn the game! For goodness sake, he was pitching a shutout and his pitch count was low 80's. He was in cruise control. I'm all for letting these starters go late into the game.

 

I recently read a Jim Kaat interview. He talked about the importance of letting these guys pitch late into games. Let your starters work through some late inning jams. It builds mental and physical toughness. This makes them better pitchers in the long run. It's good to leave these guys in to battle through tough situations rather than yank them the first sign of trouble.

 

With Baker, Blackburn, Slowey, etc, how many times over the years could you almost sense them wanting out when they knew they were at their pitch limit. They were weaklings, but they were conditioned to be that way.

 

It was Correia's game. Let him win or lose it himself. Save the bullpen when you can.

[Fatt Crapps]

[video=youtube;gRQZEs14Ejs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRQZEs14Ejs

[Aaron Cross]

What the hell is that supposed to mean.

[ThePuck]

To all the people whining Gardy didn't pull him after 7 innings.........

learn the game! For goodness sake, he was pitching a shutout and his pitch count was low 80's. He was in cruise control. I'm all for letting these starters go late into the game.

 

I recently read a Jim Kaat interview. He talked about the importance of letting these guys pitch late into games. Let your starters work through some late inning jams. It builds mental and physical toughness. This makes them better pitchers in the long run. It's good to leave these guys in to battle through tough situations rather than yank them the first sign of trouble.

 

With Baker, Blackburn, Slowey, etc, how many times over the years could you almost sense them wanting out when they knew they were at their pitch limit. They were weaklings, but they were conditioned to be that way.

 

It was Correia's game. Let him win or lose it himself. Save the bullpen when you can.

 

Learn the game? Really? Does that apply to ANY TIME someone disagrees with you on something baseball related, or anything period?

 

The issue this time is that you have a guy without any dominant stuff, with a one run lead, who has only completed three games ever in his career and, regardless of the PR stuff, is NOT an innings eater.

 

Correia, last year, had his best year in three years. He NEVER pitched more than 7 innings last year and he only pitched 7 innings 3 times. AGAIN, NOT ONE TIME did he pitch past 7 innings. He only pitched more than 6 innings 5 times. That's it.

 

Burton is our 8th inning guy. He should have been ready to start the inning and let him go do his thing. If he blows it, he blows it, but we've been told the 8th inning is his and there's little sense in letting Correia go back out there in that situation.

 

But, of course, you're right. It was exactly the right thing to do...and it worked out so well...

 

You remind me of Gardy when he chastises a person for daring to question his strategy during postgame...

[PseudoSABR]

Correia, last year, had his best year in three years. He NEVER pitched more than 7 innings last year and he only pitched 7 innings 3 times. AGAIN, NOT ONE TIME did he pitch past 7 innings. He only pitched more than 6 innings 5 times. That's it.

Do you think this had more to do with Correia's inability to pitch passed the seventh inning or due to that we was lifted for a pinch hitter?

 

This reminds me of the Mackey article that suggest the same, but fails to mention that Correia pitched exactly six innings or more 16 times. The fact that Correia was pitching in the national league has more to do with why he didn't pitch late into games than say his lack of ability.

 

Correia coming out for the 8th made sense; it's only in hindsight and our former unbridled hate of Correia that second-guessing seems legitimate.

[ThejacKmp]

Do you think this had more to do with Correia's inability to pitch passed the seventh inning or due to that we was lifted for a pinch hitter?

 

This reminds me of the Mackey article that suggest the same, but fails to mention that Correia pitched exactly six innings or more 16 times. The fact that Correia was pitching in the national league has more to do with why he didn't pitch late into games than say his lack of ability.

 

Correia coming out for the 8th made sense; it's only in hindsight and our former unbridled hate of Correia that second-guessing seems legitimate.

 

Agreed. Using statistics arbitrarily and without context is a favorite tactic of many fellow purveyors of this site who like to rant. Well done sir, well done.

 

Also, pitchers expect to keep pitching when they're doing well. That's why every manager's worst nightmare is having a pitcher with a no-hitter going hit 100 pitches in the sixth. What are you going to do take him out? It's bad for team morale. When guys have no-hitters, you can't take them out. When guys have shutouts going and less than 90 pitches, you have to send them back out. Especially in April.

 

[Final paragraph deleted by glunn due to attack on another member. ]

[twinscowboysbulls]

I have no issues with sending him out for the 8th, BUT, there was no reason he couldn't have Burton loose there to face Gordon. Would've been a runner on 3rd with a strikeout pitcher and a strikeout prone batter with one out. It could've potentially won the game for Gardy, instead he had no one loose in the bullpen.

[ThePuck]

Do you think this had more to do with Correia's inability to pitch passed the seventh inning or due to that we was lifted for a pinch hitter?

 

This reminds me of the Mackey article that suggest the same, but fails to mention that Correia pitched exactly six innings or more 16 times. The fact that Correia was pitching in the national league has more to do with why he didn't pitch late into games than say his lack of ability.

 

Correia coming out for the 8th made sense; it's only in hindsight and our former unbridled hate of Correia that second-guessing seems legitimate.

 

Well, it's only hindsight if you didn't say not to send him back out there before he went back out there. As far as the pinch hitter thing, I'd check on that but it's not like there aren't NL pitchers who go into the 8th and 9th...

 

edit: of the 3 times he went 7 innings, once he was pulled for a pinch hitter. Only once of the 5 times he pitched more than 6 innings was he pulled for a pinch hitter.

 

Of course, we could extend it out to how many times he didn't go out there for the 7th when he was pinch hit for, but that's really kind of stretching things when it comes to 'using a pinch hitter' being a legitimate reason he was pulled as opposed to him just needing to be pulled, right?

[SweetOne69]

I have no issues with sending him out for the 8th, BUT, there was no reason he couldn't have Burton loose there to face Gordon. Would've been a runner on 3rd with a strikeout pitcher and a strikeout prone batter with one out. It could've potentially won the game for Gardy, instead he had no one loose in the bullpen.

 

I agree with this. I would've let Correia start the 8th, but I would've had Burton ready to go instead of just having him start warming up after the damage was already done.

 

It's a similar situation with Parmelee over the weekend. Parmelee pinch hit late in the game and Baltimore didn't have a lefty warming up so he had to leave the righty in to pitch to Parm and he came through with a SF.

[Twins Twerp]

Do you think this had more to do with Correia's inability to pitch passed the seventh inning or due to that we was lifted for a pinch hitter?

 

This reminds me of the Mackey article that suggest the same, but fails to mention that Correia pitched exactly six innings or more 16 times. The fact that Correia was pitching in the national league has more to do with why he didn't pitch late into games than say his lack of ability.

 

Correia coming out for the 8th made sense; it's only in hindsight and our former unbridled hate of Correia that second-guessing seems legitimate.

 

This I a great post. People were so pissed off about the Correia signing that they hope he fails. They are like Limbaugh hoping Obama fails. The guy pitched a great game and had a crummy 8th. Should he have been out there? I think so. If his pitch count is in the mid 90's, possibly not. But in that situation, if it is any other pitcher, you would have agreed with the decision. Every quality start from Correia is another slap in the face of people like ThePuck.

[Mike Sixel]

No one on this board wants KC to fail. I'm sorry, that's just not true. We might expect him to, but we don't want him to.

 

Perhaps the OP could use a different tone, though, rather than telling us all to learn the game....

[edavis0308]

Yeah this smug 'learn the game' stuff all while KC lets the tying run on third with less than two outs. Ok then.

 

Not to mention, you let your young guys take the lumps to learn. Not a guy in his early 30's that is what he is. Even if you let the run score, you are looking at a tie game going into the ninth, and probably playing extras. Instead, we are down 2 going into the ninth.

 

But I guess we should all go learn the game and keep a pitcher that is allergic to strikeouts in the game with a runner on third with a one run lead. Games in April don't count as much as games in August anyway.

[Aaron Cross]

Learn the game? Really? Does that apply to ANY TIME someone disagreeswith you on something baseball related, or anything period

 

The issue this time is that you have a guy without any dominant stuff, with a one run lead, who has only completed three games ever in his career and, regardless of the PR stuff, is NOT an innings eater.

 

Correia, last year, had his best year in three years. He NEVER pitched more than 7 innings last year and he only pitched 7 innings 3 times. AGAIN, NOT ONE TIME did he pitch past 7 innings. He only pitched more than 6 innings 5 times. That's it.

 

Burton is our 8th inning guy. He should have been ready to start the inning and let him go do his thing. If he blows it, he blows it, but we've been told the 8th inning is his and there's little sense in letting Correia go back out there in that situation.

 

But, of course, you're right. It was exactly the right thing to do...and it worked out so well...

 

You remind me of Gardy when he chastises a person for daring to question his strategy during postgame...

 

None of it matters. It was correia's game. If he fails, he'll learn from it and be better off in the long run. I'll go with a guy like Kaat who i'm sure would say gardy was right to leave him in. Just because it didnt work doesnt mean it was the wrong decision.

[ThePuck]

None of it matters. It was correia's game. If he fails, he'll learn from it and be better off in the long run. I'll go with a guy like Kaat who i'm sure would say gardy was right to leave him in. Just because it didnt work doesnt mean it was the wrong decision.

 

Of course none of it matter...wouldn't want to factor everything in to decide the right course of action...

 

He'll 'learn from it' as if he's some kid getting his feet wet. What lesson do you think he learned here, exactly?

[Willihammer]

Its very simple. You had a situation that called for a strikeout and a PTC guy on the mound, in a 1 run game. At the very least you walk the guy to setup a double play, but Gardy didn't even do that. It does not compute.

[jay]

He'll 'learn from it' as if he's some kid getting his feet wet. What lesson do you think he learned here, exactly?

 

This is the weakest point of the argument. A 32 year old with over 1000 MLB innings isn't exactly in the 'learn from it' stage. He's a pretty known quantity.

We can find some old baseball "wisdom" to support almost anything. The conflicting "wisdom" here would be that you don't let your starter take the loss after a strong day.

 

Gardy should have had someone warming up.

[ThePuck]

Its very simple. You had a situation that called for a strikeout and a PTC guy on the mound, in a 1 run game. At the very least you walk the guy to setup a double play, but Gardy didn't even do that. It does not compute.

 

Exactly...you can't cookie-cut a situation and say it applies the same to all pitchers across the board. In this situation you do this, period, regardless of the pitcher as if every pitcher is armed with the same stuff. You have to take all the stuff that doesn't apparently matter into account.

[ThePuck]

This is the weakest point of the argument. A 32 year old with over 1000 MLB innings isn't exactly in the 'learn from it' stage. He's a pretty known quantity.

We can find some old baseball "wisdom" to support almost anything. The conflicting "wisdom" here would be that you don't let your starter take the loss after a strong day.

 

Gardy should have had someone warming up.

 

just to be clear, you know that wasn't MY argument, right? :-)

[Ultima Ratio]

This I a great post. (1) People were so pissed off about the Correia signing that they hope he fails. They are like (2) Limbaugh hoping Obama fails. The guy pitched a great game and had a crummy 8th. Should he have been out there? I think so. If his pitch count is in the mid 90's, possibly not. But in that situation, if it is any other pitcher, you would have agreed with the decision. Every quality start from Correia is another slap in the face of people like ThePuck.

 

(1) Which Twins fans hope KC will fail?... Let's see the exact quote. Not liking a signing because the prospect of much pitching improvement from a known replacement-level pitcher would be surprising (surprisingly good and welcome) is a reasonable position.

 

(2) Did KC promise to "fundamentally transform America?" Fails at what, seems important.

 

Besides these two points, I see tremendous merit in this post.

[ThePuck]

This I a great post. People were so pissed off about the Correia signing that they hope he fails. They are like Limbaugh hoping Obama fails. The guy pitched a great game and had a crummy 8th. Should he have been out there? I think so. If his pitch count is in the mid 90's, possibly not. But in that situation, if it is any other pitcher, you would have agreed with the decision. Every quality start from Correia is another slap in the face of people like ThePuck.

 

excuse me? I NEVER hope a Twin fails. That comment is way out of line..but then again, that's what you do...

 

The funny part is you think this is about Correia...who did nothing but pitch well and go back out there like he was told.

[PseudoSABR]

Look, while I believe it was perfectly legitimate to put KC back out there in the eighth, I don't buy any of this "that he'll learn from his mistakes" or that it was "his game to lose" nonsense.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I think it's ridiculous to argue that Correia shouldn't have been out there for the eighth inning. He's a veteran pitcher dominating a lineup and is well under 100 pitches. You put that guy out there 100-freakin-percent of the time unless there is something physically wrong with him. That's just common baseball sense. When a guy is dominating a lineup and still has gas in the tank, you keep him in. That's it. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

 

The real question is why Correia was left out there as the wheels came off and why Gardy didn't have anyone up in the pen to step in and shut down a rally.

 

It was a one run game. The margin for error is zero. You don't "trust" anyone to get through that and tough it out. The moment he falters, you make the call to the pen.

[Mr. Brooks]

This I a great post. People were so pissed off about the Correia signing that they hope he fails. They are like Limbaugh hoping Obama fails. The guy pitched a great game and had a crummy 8th. Should he have been out there? I think so. If his pitch count is in the mid 90's, possibly not. But in that situation, if it is any other pitcher, you would have agreed with the decision. Every quality start from Correia is another slap in the face of people like ThePuck.

 

This logic doesnt make much sense.

If guys WANT KC to fail, those people should be glad that he was sent out for the 8th, as that is when he failed.

[PseudoSABR]

This logic doesnt make much sense.

If guys WANT KC to fail, those people should be glad that he was sent out for the 8th, as that is when he failed.

What those people really want is for people to believe them before hand, and for everyone to accept that KC's failure is an inevitability. There's some pretty cynical folks that post here, but it's rude to pyschoanalyze, so we should probably stop.

[edavis0308]

I think it's ridiculous to argue that Correia shouldn't have been out there for the eighth inning. He's a veteran pitcher dominating a lineup and is well under 100 pitches. You put that guy out there 100-freakin-percent of the time unless there is something physically wrong with him. That's just common baseball sense. When a guy is dominating a lineup and still has gas in the tank, you keep him in. That's it. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

 

The real question is why Correia was left out there as the wheels came off and why Gardy didn't have anyone up in the pen to step in and shut down a rally.

 

It was a one run game. The margin for error is zero. You don't "trust" anyone to get through that and tough it out. The moment he falters, you make the call to the pen.

 

I do believe that is the more logical argument here - why he stayed in with a guy on third in a one run game.

[Mr. Brooks]

What those people really want is for people to believe them before hand, and for everyone to accept that KC's failure is an inevitability. There's some pretty cynical folks that post here, but it's rude to pyschoanalyze, so we should probably stop.

 

I don't think it's cynical to think Correai will probably fail in the AL. It's a pretty realistic expectation when looking at his career numbers, his K rate, and the NL to AL jump.

[ThePuck]

This logic doesnt make much sense.

If guys WANT KC to fail, those people should be glad that he was sent out for the 8th, as that is when he failed.

 

exactly

[ashbury]

Perhaps the OP could use a different tone, though, rather than telling us all to learn the game....

 

This site is relatively new, but we've already seen the pattern before, and several of us already have lived it ourselves and then toned ourselves down (a little). Somebody age 40+ runs across this forum, decides it's incumbent on him to share the wealth of his experience with others, and reacts badly when this experience is contradicted, and doubles down with a new post that explains a new sheriff is in town. My apologies to the OP in case he's a spring chicken of 39 or lower.

[Mike Sixel]

Doood*, I'm 49.....

 

*not assuming you are a doood, I guess, I just like typing these kewl words

[ashbury]

It was a one run game.

 

Not only that, it's the most unique kind of one-run game, 1-0. Your pitcher has done literally nothing wrong so far, in terms of the end result of keeping the other team from scoring, whether that means he mowed them down or worked in and out of trouble. As manager, you've gotten what you always claim you want: the chance to win in the late innings. Now you have to manage to meet that claim, and it has to be without regard to egos, particularly when it's a veteran on the mound. Quite often both bullpens are hotbeds for the remainder of the game, pitchers of either hand throwing in tandem. And now you as manager may have to tell this starter he's done nothing wrong, in fact pitched one of the best ten games of his life, but you're taking him out anyway. "Great game, stud, now it's on me if it goes wrong." This is whether you bring Burton in to start the inning, or wait to allow a first baserunner (my option), or wait another batter longer to bring him in. Gardy didn't do any of these; he didn't even set up the possibility to do these if the bullpen was quiet.