Source: Twins have 1 yr offer to Saunders; never made offer to Marcum

[lightfoot789]

There's nothing any individual fan can do to change this. The FO needs to have a shift somewhere, and maybe it ends up being in an entirely different direction from Ryan. The man has been the GM for the better part of the last 2 decades. Maybe another losing season followed by dropping attendance pushes them to do something else. Maybe the fact that they're still going to be making money regardless of how bad attendance gets means they don't care and nothing changes. They've been devoutly loyal to Ryan through the worst of times, but at least then they had the Metrodome to blame their poorer finances on. That excuse is gone, but the outlook is now as poor in the short-to-mid term as those mid-to-late-90's teams. Maybe a new voice and approach would help at the top, but it seems that as long as the team is running in the black, the Pohlads are probably just fine taking the money to the bank and letting the status quo reign. No individual fan can change that.

 

We did make the playoffs in 2009 and 2010 didn't we? You could be the Cubs - Pirates - KC - etc. - We made the playoffs just 2 seasons ago. - WOW

[TheLeviathan]

My point is you've been saying the same thing for 28 years and they don't hear you. Make them hear you a different way (cancelled season tickets like you said). As to my example about cleaning your room - Are you the parent who ends up grounding your kid because he didn't listen or the one who will say the same thing "day in and day out" until he "hopefully" responds? And if you ground him - at least see if that method works. Don't stand over him while he cleans making your unheard point - heard. It seldom works. Hit him where it hurts and move on.

 

Your analogy is a really poor one, so I'm trying to avoid engaging it. I don't share a relationship with the Twins anything like parent-child. They are a business, one that hopes to keep as many fans happy as is humanly possible. Won't ever keep them all, but that's how it is. As Fro said, the ability for any one fan to radically shift an organization's policies is impossible. That you continue to set up every discussion around that idea is facetious.

 

I hope Ryan's plan works, I'm sure many components of it will, he's a good GM. But he's leaving out a very important avenue of improving his club by his ridiculous expectations for what the team should and should not do in FA. As a paying customer, that lack of aggressiveness makes me less willing to continue to pay. As I said, that's my choice, but the more people that make that choice the worse the issue gets. (See late 90s) It should worry EVERY Twins fan when the fanbase gets apathetic or annoyed with the club and stops paying to see them play.

[lightfoot789]

Your analogy is a really poor one, so I'm trying to avoid engaging it. I don't share a relationship with the Twins anything like parent-child. They are a business, one that hopes to keep as many fans happy as is humanly possible. Won't ever keep them all, but that's how it is. As Fro said, the ability for any one fan to radically shift an organization's policies is impossible. That you continue to set up every discussion around that idea is facetious.

 

I hope Ryan's plan works, I'm sure many components of it will, he's a good GM. But he's leaving out a very important avenue of improving his club by his ridiculous expectations for what the team should and should not do in FA. As a paying customer, that lack of aggressiveness makes me less willing to continue to pay. As I said, that's my choice, but the more people that make that choice the worse the issue gets. (See late 90s) It should worry EVERY Twins fan when the fanbase gets apathetic or annoyed with the club and stops paying to see them play.

 

I get it - I think his (TR) way of building this franchise back to playoff bound is right on point. I want to be good for the next decade and I think his way is the way to do it. Through the draft and trades. When these prospects find their stride (thru process of elimination) - surround those players with key FA acquisitions. Overpay then. Not now. So I'll agree to disagree. Signing off on this thread Oh - He will pay more then, because I believe he will, despite no track record for the last 28 years. I just believe and have a gut.

[snepp]

Staving off apathy, and the ensuing downward spiral of income and budget levels, should be a big concern. If you wait around too long to make improvements you may find the budget being unsuitable for "overpaying then."

[FrodaddyG]

Overpay then. Not now. So I'll agree to disagree. Signing off on this thread Oh - He will pay more then, because I believe he will, despite no track record for the last 28 years. I just believe and have a gut.

So years down the road, when FA prices have continued on a severe upward trend which is about to be bumped even more by an across-the-board influx of TV money, the guy who has spent the last two decades not willing to pay market value will suddenly completely change his stance and begin throwing money around. Does your gut have any stocks I should get in on? (By which I mean avoid like the plague.)

[edavis0308]

I get it - I think his (TR) way of building this franchise back to playoff bound is right on point. I want to be good for the next decade and I think his way is the way to do it. Through the draft and trades. When these prospects find their stride (thru process of elimination) - surround those players with key FA acquisitions. Overpay then. Not now. So I'll agree to disagree. Signing off on this thread Oh - He will pay more then, because I believe he will, despite no track record for the last 28 years. I just believe and have a gut.

 

I'm sorry, but a few posts earlier you stated "you're about results" but now you have a gut feeling that he is going to buck his trend of not showing results regarding free agency?

[Twins Twerp]

This is a dumb argument. How often does a team other than the Yankees use Free Agency to win a World Series. The way to build a competitive team is to draft well and trade well. Terry Ryan built a winner before. He will do it again. Spending ton of money on FA's is not the way you build a winner. Even with the top guys on the market, we would still suck for at least the next two seasons. The Rays and Nationals did things the right way. Suck for long enough, stock, restock, and restock your farm system, and develop young players. I have a feeling that the money will be spent when the team is competitive again. The situation was so bad when Ryan took over, that he set out on a 4-5 year plan and will not sway from that.

[edavis0308]

This is a dumb argument. How often does a team other than the Yankees use Free Agency to win a World Series. The way to build a competitive team is to draft well and trade well. Terry Ryan built a winner before. He will do it again. Spending ton of money on FA's is not the way you build a winner. Even with the top guys on the market, we would still suck for at least the next two seasons. The Rays and Nationals did things the right way. Suck for long enough, stock, restock, and restock your farm system, and develop young players. I have a feeling that the money will be spent when the team is competitive again. The situation was so bad when Ryan took over, that he set out on a 4-5 year plan and will not sway from that.

 

No one is saying to stock your team with overpaid free agents. They are saying to have your home grown core supplanted with a free agent move here and there to fill weaknesses created by weaknesses in your farm system. We could use FA for league average starting pitching, and a short stop. They are a great need to this team and they wouldn't be blocking any position for a few years (where we would still have a hole at said positions).

[TheLeviathan]

The Rays and Nationals did things the right way.

 

Um, you are aware of the Nationals' activity during FA right?

[twinsnorth49]

I get it - I think his (TR) way of building this franchise back to playoff bound is right on point. I want to be good for the next decade and I think his way is the way to do it. Through the draft and trades. When these prospects find their stride (thru process of elimination) - surround those players with key FA acquisitions. Overpay then. Not now. So I'll agree to disagree. Signing off on this thread Oh - He will pay more then, because I believe he will, despite no track record for the last 28 years. I just believe and have a gut.

 

I don't quite understand your reluctance to make this team more competitive now when they have the means to do it. Nobody has any issue with the moves Ryan has made to bolster the team a couple of years from now, it's been supported countless times. What is your issue with anybody that seems to think it's reasonable to spend some money on some players that could help this team in the short-term, which is within their means, and not hurt the team in the future?

 

Additionally,if you are all about new ideas, would spending money on some decent free agents not qualify as a new idea for a team that has historically never done it?

[snepp]

*massacre of strawmen*

 

Number of people that have claimed free agency is how to win a World Series:

 

 

0

[twinsnorth49]

This is a dumb argument. How often does a team other than the Yankees use Free Agency to win a World Series.

 

Who said anything about the World Series? Most of us are just talking about not being out of contention in the Central by June, is that too much to ask?

[johnnydakota]

I'm not calling for his head, never did. Most aren't. The problem is, in FA, if you aren't at least willing to offer "as much" you won't even be in the conversation. That's all anyone is asking - be competitive in FA because financially they can afford to do so. Expressing frustration with their unwillingness to do so is perfectly fine.

Sorry to disagree , it is here that most think Terry is doing a good job , else where they and I are in fact calling for his head....

most do not believe Mr. Ryan or Mr. Gardenhire can acquire or modivate players to a world series...

[TheLeviathan]

Sorry to disagree , it is here that most think Terry is doing a good job , else where they and I are in fact calling for his head....most do not believe Mr. Ryan or Mr. Gardenhire can acquire or modivate players to a world series...

 

There are many things to like about Ryan, but if he's going to be this averse to utilizing FA to help improve his ballclub, then I think his time has come and gone for this franchise. I'll give him a little more time before I get frustrated enough to call for a change. But I am certainly concerned about being this awful at utilizing such an important part of building a team.

 

I think the role Gardenhire has is pretty moot overall, I don't worry too much about his influence.

[johnnydakota]

True - But my question is how are you going to make Ownership and FO listen differently this year as opposed to the last 28 years? Why should they take your concerns seriously in 2013? That's like the parent who tells his kid to "clean your room" and he never does. What do you need to do differently (expressing yourself) to make FO hear you? I'm about results. If expressing yourself negatively for 28 years is your plan when there is no change happening - Then yes - I don't get it? I want new ideas to get my point heard. Like telling my kid your grounded until that room is cleaned. And following through!!! I'm about results. Maybe you have a following - Maybe you don't

 

the twins llc are a sucsess if your the Pohlads, there making vucue dinero . only way to change there thinking is to stop paying for there product....

[johnnydakota]

All great GMs think outside the box. Give TR a chance to fail his way or succeed. He already made a change in his draft philosophy and is listening to Saber guys in the FO. Give him a couple a years to build something. See if you still suck by mid season in 2014 at least.

 

He didnt listen to his SABR guys on Kevin Correia did he?

[Willihammer]

Even with the top guys on the market, we would still suck for at least the next two seasons. The Rays and Nationals did things the right way.

 

Look at the 69 win Nats of 2010, compared to the 80 win 2011 team and the 96 win team last year. They had a couple impact farm guys in Strasburg and Harper, sure, but the core of those teams are the same. The biggest difference is that they upgraded their rotation with Gio and Edwin Jackson last year via free agency and mortgaging their farm.

 

If you look at the Twins teams who were competitive in the 00s, the core of Cuddyer, Kubel, Mauer, Morneau, Span... the core today is not much different. Certainly Willingham and Doumit are strong substitutes for Cuddyer and Kubel. Plouffe could be our best 3b since Koskie.

 

If those guys all stay healthy, and one or two farm guys are able to have an impact (Hicks, Benson, Mastro, Parmelee), this team is not that far away from contention.

 

I think everyone wanting to kick the rock down the road needs to consider that the Twins window for contending may very well be closing in 2015 or 2016, not opening.

[ThePuck]

Look at the 69 win Nats of 2010, compared to the 80 win 2011 team and the 96 win team last year. They had a couple impact farm guys in Strasburg and Harper, sure, but the core of those teams are the same. The biggest difference is that they upgraded their rotation with Gio and Edwin Jackson last year via free agency and mortgaging their farm.

 

If you look at the Twins teams who were competitive in the 00s, the core of Cuddyer, Kubel, Mauer, Morneau, Span... the core today is not much different. Certainly Willingham and Doumit are strong substitutes for Cuddyer and Kubel. Plouffe could be our best 3b since Koskie.

 

If those guys all stay healthy, and one or two farm guys are able to have an impact (Hicks, Benson, Mastro, Parmelee), this team is not that far away from contention.

 

I think everyone wanting to kick the rock down the road needs to consider that the Twins window for contending may very well be closing in 2015 or 2016, not opening.

 

Nationals didn't hurt themselves too much when they got Gio..certainly didn't mortgage their farm too bad...and the best prospect they lost they got back already...AJ Cole. And they also have Gio for at least 4 more years...up to 6

[TheLeviathan]

Nationals didn't hurt themselves too much when they got Gio..certainly didn't mortgage their farm too bad...and the best prospect they lost they got back already...AJ Cole. And they also have Gio for at least 4 more years...up to 6

 

They also went and signed Werth and Haren to name just two in FA. That comparison by Twerp was ridiculous.

[BrentMpls]

If you renew your season ticket package, you get 10% off your spending on CONcessions or on Twins Stuff. Your Kevin Coreria jrsey will be cheaper than any Twins jersey your purchased on-site last year. Hey, any Liriano jerseys left at Twinsfest, or were they apckaged as twofers with Valencia or Baker jerseys.

 

That Pohlad-generous 10% off only applies to certain CONcessions I'm afraid. No details on what that means, but my spidey-sense tells me craft beers wont be on that list, meaning my Surly will still cost me as much as my ticket.

 

Didn't see any Frankies, but there were some hot Span and Revere Jerseys in stock.

[DaveW]

Christ, I can't wait for the season to start, these threads are a beat down to read through.

[BrentMpls]

Then there's guys like Joe Mauer, whom I believe wants to stay in Minnesota for the rest of his career.

 

For what it is worth, Sid on the Sports Show tonight (which was super creepy and bizarre by having a girl stand in the background, never introduced and silent) said he asked Mauer today about the no-trade clause and Joe says under no circumstances would he waive it.

[Twins Twerp]

But the nats had to suck first to build a young core. They did supplement their core with werth and edwin jackson. I agree they may not be the best example but we r were they were before they started signing free agents. The twins lineup is going to be worse than it was last year with even worse defense. TR, imo, is building for 2015. Payroll will be wide open even next year. These bargain bin pitchers he has been signing are not for the fans. He is building a strong farm system and signing affordable guys to eat innings. He did pretty well with his signings last year and he will be the busiest gm at tbe trade deadline building for...you guessed it, 2015.

[johnnydakota]

For what it is worth, Sid on the Sports Show tonight (which was super creepy and bizarre by having a girl stand in the background, never introduced and silent) said he asked Mauer today about the no-trade clause and Joe says under no circumstances would he waive it.

easy to get him to drop it , fire jake and make him the highest ever AAA player , after a couple of weeks of riding the bus he will waive his no trade clause....or constantly pinch hit drew butrea for him hahaha lots of ways to modivate a player to want to leave , and the front office is skilled at this, its getting players to want to come here where they have troubles...

[johnnydakota]

But the nats had to suck first to build a young core. They did supplement their core with werth and edwin jackson. I agree they may not be the best example but we r were they were before they started signing free agents. The twins lineup is going to be worse than it was last year with even worse defense. TR, imo, is building for 2015. Payroll will be wide open even next year. These bargain bin pitchers he has been signing are not for the fans. He is building a strong farm system and signing affordable guys to eat innings. He did pretty well with his signings last year and he will be the busiest gm at tbe trade deadline building for...you guessed it, 2015.

 

So by signing quality players , and then trading the players for quality prospects, that some how hurts our minor leaques?

Spend to acquire quality assets , then in turn trade the assets for future assets....adding to our prospects....

[Kwak]

Joining-in late. No personal attacks either. Yes, I believe there is a long-term plan. Pattern the Twins after the Rays with a fallback position of the Marlins. Winning is not defined the same by everyone.Think of the Twins as if they are a common stock. Some have high-growth potential with high reward potential--but also with high risk. Some have modest growth potential, but have a niche that with tight control can consistently post consistent (but not stellar) positive results. I see much of the discussion based on the assumption that the FO is trying to win the WS, or at least always be in contention to win the AL Central. But that need not be the case. If the plan is to consistently operate with a $60-65MM payroll (assumes there will always be a Mauer-type on the team) and make a run whenever but generally to trade the veterans when their salary increases beyond a threshold (or total payroll beyond a threshold) that may well be defined as "winning" by management. Low-risk, consistent, but unspectactular results.

 

Sadly (for fans who want to see a winner every year) that means disassembling the 2010 team piece by piece (except Mauer) and replacing them with low salary players. Expect losing seasons. Expect to hear some yay-rah-rah spin and the like, "...wait until so-and-so gets to the Twins...". Gallons of Kool-Aid will be poured--but several posters have stated that is "fine", they love the Twins whatever and "trust management to make it all right." Such a policy is valid for business--except that wasn't the pitch I heard when the Twins were asking (pretty much demanding) that the public make a very substantial contribution in construction, maintenance, upgrades costs, but also tax concessions. In my mind, they should be spending now to put a better team on the field in 2013 just as promised in their "request" for a new stadium.

[howeda7]

I truly do agree. Now give me your selling point to that FA as a GM. How do you get a matched offer FA to come here? Everyone is getting on TR about what he is not doing. Tell me your conversation as GM (besides money) to getr FA here. Because players do care about family and other things when it comes to FA signing.

 

Sell me (I'm Kyle Loshe and you offered 1 million more than next competitor)..........................Why should I pick MN?

 

I'm on your side about MN now - I'm just defending TRs challenge. Let's hear your sell as TR/GM.........

 

Kyle, Pedro Florimon can make a $%^&in play. Let me tell you. Nothing gets by him. He can $%^&ing pick it. On days you pitch, we'll make sure Jamie Carroll plays 2B. You've seen him in the NL. You know he's a $%%^&& human vacuum. We'll even make sure Escobar is at 3B for you. No Plouffe for you. We'll make sure that hot corner is $%%^& covered, Kyle.

 

Now about the outfield...um Gardy's door is super-reinforced steel....but how's $12 million?

 

In general there's no great advantage to recruiting FA's to Minnesota, but there's no disadvantage either relative to Detroit, Milwaukee, St. Louis, KC, Cincy, etc. etc. It's a nice city. It's a beautiful brand-new ballpark with great facilities. It's a division that can be won without a miracle (would your rather be Baltimore or Toronto?) Will we get the guys with stars in their eyes who have the Yankees after them? No. Can we convince someone to choose MN over all of the places I've mentioned? Why not?

[johnnydakota]

There are many things to like about Ryan, but if he's going to be this averse to utilizing FA to help improve his ballclub, then I think his time has come and gone for this franchise. I'll give him a little more time before I get frustrated enough to call for a change. But I am certainly concerned about being this awful at utilizing such an important part of building a team.

 

I think the role Gardenhire has is pretty moot overall, I don't worry too much about his influence.

 

I didnt like the fact he returned to his former position , but last year he had an idea of what he wanted to do , and while losing players , he did add some to the team , this year , well its like he just sat and waited ,and did nothing ,except trade 2 major leaque players for a handful of magic beans .. maybe they will work out or maybe they wont , only time will tell , but as for adding to the 2013 team , i dont see much , worely if he is healthy is all i see

[howeda7]

In general, even in 're-building' you should allocate your resources to put the best product on the field. The only difference is that you want to ensure you're not 'blocking' anyone or tying up resources in future years recklessly. In this regard, TR has failed.

 

Could he have gotten Grienke? Probably not. But the fact that it was dismissed as laughable to even consider is bothersome. The Twins could have gone 6/$150. Not saying they should have, but they could afford it. The fact that we still act more like Oakland/Tampa than St. LouisDetroit is not right. We're not the little engine that could anymore.

 

Grienke aside, this team can afford a payroll of at least $90 million. The pitching staff was a joke, and much, much more could have been done for it than we have seen so far. Getting Saunders would help. Keeping Baker would have been nice (doesn't preclude going after Pelfrey too). Going after someone like Lannan instead of Corriea. Maybe spending some of the difference/unused $ on an Edwin Jackson. Taking a 'risk' on Marcum instead of Harden. There are many scenarios. But most of them are better than what we got.

[glunn]

The Orioles have moved on. It is unbelievable how many people on this board simply do not do the math or examine the specifics of what other teams are doing/have done. Saunders has only 3 different options left: Seattle, San Diego and Minnesota. I said this previously to all those wannabe GMs who wanted to give Saunders $10M to $12.5M per year for multiple years. BTB, any "major" free agent will avoid the frozen tundra of Minnesota if at all possible. This is reality. Deal with it. It would take a very special free agent to accept a deal with the Twins. Take that to your ice fishing house and smoke it.

 

That was a very cold post. And nothing would require a free agent to spend the winter in Minnesota.