Marcum To Mets

[jimbo92107]

Yeah, it's a "feature" of the board, and a lousy one at that.

 

 

Brock, can we get the all-caps protection disabled?

 

 

All caps is a feature you can turn back on, but first you have to get your Anonymous membership card.

[Otwins]

This seems a little extreme. Outside of Correia he has had an acceptable offseason.

 

I have been thinking of this and the only reasonjng I can think of is they felt so burned by innings last year they took the guarantee

d mediocre innings over upside with increased health risk. I don't agree with the strategy.

 

I agree with you. I like every one of Ryan's moves except Correia. There is not one GM that gets every move right. Adding the second year was a bad move even if Correia pitches well. But I think it is time to get over it. He is rebuilding this team.

[jokin]

...People were making insane statements about the medical staff....

 

Not sure you're qualified to give that medical diagnosis...

[jokin]

I agree with you. I like every one of Ryan's moves except Correia. There is not one GM that gets every move right. Adding the second year was a bad move even if Correia pitches well. But I think it is time to get over it. He is rebuilding this team.

 

You covered the single act of Comission, how about all the other acts of Omission?

[Brock Beauchamp]

Not sure you're qualified to give that medical diagnosis...

 

Hey, I proofread all my ex-wife's papers through her graduate program in Psychology. That makes me more than qualified to declare someone insane. I'm a keyboard commando when it comes to the DSM IV.

[twinsnorth49]

You covered the single act of Comission, how about all the other acts of Omission?

 

Beat me to it:D

[jokin]

You especially do this when they are not blocking any significant young talent.

 

.

 

...Uhh, what's the "blockage" problem like, again? I want to be prepared in plenty of time to have something else to "focus my wrath" about besides signing Correia....

[Thrylos]

...Uhh, what's the "blockage" problem like, again? I want to be prepared in plenty of time to have something else to "focus my wrath" about besides signing Correia....

 

Seriously?

 

Here is a tally before Pelfrey and Harden. I suspect with Ryan's MLB and MiLB signings the Twins have enough veterans to fill the rotations from MLB to Fort Myers...

[Thrylos]

I'm honestly to the point where I believe Ryan should be fired if he passed on one year of Marcum for $10m or less. That's dumb. Idiotic. Ridiculous. Unacceptable. It is not smart baseball management however you look at it.

 

And in the past 15 years, I've never called for Ryan's head. Not once.

 

I might call you to join the club then

 

 

And I really do not mind him passing. This would had been another Correia-like (Marcum is better than Correia, but similarly effective) signing:

The Twins will be really hard pressed to compete as is. And (in my book) for the Twins to compete, Harden, Pelfrey and Diamond need to be healthy, so does Morneau, Perk needs to adjust to the closer role, Willingham needs to repeat 2012, so does Plouffe, a MIF (or 2) need to have an OPS North of 700, the new CF needs to catch lightning, and everyone needs to be career average or better.

 

What is the probability of that happening?

 

So, let's say that this team wins 76 as is... (this is +10 from 2012, I know I am generous ) Adding Marcum to the rotation and subtracting (who?) will account for 12-15 wins?

 

Severely doubt it.

 

Waste of money (as is the $ they are paying Morneau, Willingham, Doumit, Carroll and most veterans right now...)

Ryan can actually do some trades. Occasionally. I give him that. But as far as signing or re-signing FA Ps, he has been horrid. Batting Butera-like averages. The only FA of worth I remember him sign as far as SP go is Kenny Rogers. The rest were like.... So Correia (and Capps last season) has been more the Ryan Norm than the Exception.

[jokin]

Seriously?

 

...

 

No.

 

But feel free to direct your own "wrath" ol'nurse's way.

[lightfoot789]

I look at the Brewers as a model of the future. They lost Grienke mid season in 2012 and Marcum for a large portion of the season. During that time frame, they were way out of the playoff hunt. They went with their young call up prospects and made a true run for the wildcard. This year they made no attempt to bring in an established frree agent SP and made no attempt to bring back Marcum. They are going into this season with strong beliefs that their young SPers can take them into the post season. Maybe - Just maybe - Our June call up pitchers (Meyer / Mays / Gibson / Hendriks) can bring some immediate hope for the future to this city. If not, maybe we can make some late season trades to assure some other top AAA prospects (SP / Middle Infield) help for the future. Brewer Fans happy with the promise of the future despite being on the shoulders of prospects.

 

TR can test the health of the inexpensive vets for the beginning of the season and always go to the young prospects to finish off the 2nd half of season if sh___ hits the fan. If you pay for too many years to FA pitchers you would never pull the plug on them for your young prospects. This way we have nothing to lose. Win Win or Lose Win (prospect experience)

[Brock Beauchamp]

I look at the Brewers as a model of the future. They lost Grienke mid season in 2012 and Marcum for a large portion of the season. During that time frame, they were way out of the playoff hunt. They went with their young call up prospects and made a true run for the wildcard. This year they made no attempt to bring in an established frree agent SP and made no attempt to bring back Marcum. They are going into this season with strong beliefs that their young SPers can take them into the post season. Maybe - Just maybe - Our June call up pitchers (Meyer / Mays / Gibson / Hendriks) can bring some immediate hope for the future to this city. If not, maybe we can make some late season trades to assure some other top AAA prospects (SP / Middle Infield) help for the future. Brewer Fans happy with the promise of the future despite being on the shoulders of prospects.

 

1. Brewers fans are not happy. Milwaukee's payroll has dropped from $100m to $80m in just a couple of years.

 

2. Despite playing in a market a fraction of the size of the Twins, playing in a stadium several years older than Target Field, and despite being the smallest market in baseball, the Brewers payroll is nearly identical to the Twins.

[lightfoot789]

Brewers will still average close to 35,000 raging fans per game. Anxious to see if prospects can still meet expectations. Raging Fans who don't wait for prospects to fulfill destiny before they show them their love. I've been to recent Twins games and fans have lost thier spirit in a matter of 2 years.

 

So many of the people on this board can not switch their enthusiasm to "Go Twins" mood with true conviction come season time. Die hards believe until the results (W/L) show there is no more hope. Start believing people. Brewer fans were disappointed they lost Fielder in 2012, but understood the market they were in. Brewer management makes a habit of making the big trades when the team shows it has playoff possibilities (C.C. / K Rod), not before. Milwaukee - like Minnesota does not bring in the huge FAs. They have to acquire their Key players via trades. I don't understand why my fellow Twins Fan gets upset over not acquiring Key FAs. You haven't done so in the last 2 decades.

[ThePuck]

Brewers will still average close to 35,000 raging fans per game. Anxious to see if prospects can still meet expectations. Raging Fans who don't wait for prospects to fulfill destiny before they show them their love. I've been to recent Twins games and fans have lost thier spirit in a matter of 2 years.

 

So many of the people on this board can not switch their enthusiasm to "Go Twins" mood with true conviction come season time. Die hards believe until the results (W/L) show there is no more hope. Start believing people. Brewer fans were disappointed they lost Fielder in 2012, but understood the market they were in. Brewer management makes a habit of making the big trades when the team shows it has playoff possibilities (C.C. / K Rod), not before. Milwaukee - like Minnesota does not bring in the huge FAs. They have to acquire their Key players via trades. I don't understand why my fellow Twins Fan gets upset over not acquiring Key FAs. You haven't done so in the last 2 decades.

 

Yeah, they must be REAL fans....

[Brock Beauchamp]

Die hards believe until the results (W/L) show there is no more hope. Start believing people.

 

You continually make statements like this. Are you implying that you're more of a fan because you have an irrational belief in the franchise's powers that be and that grounded skepticism is somehow a bad thing?

 

Also, I lived in Milwaukee from mid 2008 to late 2009. I still have several friends there. Nobody is thrilled about the payroll situation going on there (and their payroll is STILL equal to Minnesota's despite MUCH smaller revenue streams). If Milwaukee fans are annoyed, Twins fans should be storming the streets with pitchforks and torches. We're getting screwed by comparison.

[FrodaddyG]

You continually make statements like this. Are you implying that you're more of a fan because you have an irrational belief in the franchise's powers that be and that grounded skepticism is somehow a bad thing?

Yes. Yes, he is.

 

Funny side note: My high school calculus teacher's last name was Lightfoot. Far and away one of the smartest people I have ever met. Apparently, the universe has a similarly-named counterpoint to everything.

[twinsnorth49]

Brewers will still average close to 35,000 raging fans per game. Anxious to see if prospects can still meet expectations. Raging Fans who don't wait for prospects to fulfill destiny before they show them their love. I've been to recent Twins games and fans have lost thier spirit in a matter of 2 years.

 

So many of the people on this board can not switch their enthusiasm to "Go Twins" mood with true conviction come season time. Die hards believe until the results (W/L) show there is no more hope. Start believing people. Brewer fans were disappointed they lost Fielder in 2012, but understood the market they were in. Brewer management makes a habit of making the big trades when the team shows it has playoff possibilities (C.C. / K Rod), not before. Milwaukee - like Minnesota does not bring in the huge FAs. They have to acquire their Key players via trades. I don't understand why my fellow Twins Fan gets upset over not acquiring Key FAs. You haven't done so in the last 2 decades.

 

Do you honestly think none of us hope the Twins will win? I sure as hell do. I'm just realistic and informed enough to know that is highly unlikely and I'm extremely disappointed our FO did nothing to change that given ample means and opportunity.

 

Go ahead and lead the blind faith brigade, if that's what you feel makes you a fan, all power to you. As a fan myself, I wish our FO showed a little bit more appreciation and respect to us and some of the players by making a better effort to put a viable product on the field.

 

I hope they win, I just don't believe they will.

[AlwaysinModeration]

Webb is the only FA pitcher I am left to hold out hope for.

[lightfoot789]

I will ask this:

Would you rather gamble with low cost / potential upside - FA SPers? and use call up prospects in June if all else fails?

OR

Spend $10 to 15 million on potential (#3s) over a 2-3 year span - who will probably maintain their (#3) status for those 2-3 years?

 

*To me you win possibly 10 more games & remain close to .500 either way

*You can spend millions of dollars to remain under .500 / & keep your potential SP prospects from receiving quality starts in a meaningless season.

*If you are not making a run for the playoffs - get those prospects some outings. Get the kinks out this year and full go in 2014.

[edavis0308]

That's funny, we signed the low cost no upside variety.

[gil4]

amazing stuff, that duct tape...that and Simple Green. That stuff gets every damn stain out :-)

 

Add a Leatherman and you can fix anything

[Kwak]

I will ask this:

Would you rather gamble with low cost / potential upside - FA SPers? and use call up prospects in June if all else fails?

OR

Spend $10 to 15 million on potential (#3s) over a 2-3 year span - who will probably maintain their (#3) status for those 2-3 years?

 

*To me you win possibly 10 more games & remain close to .500 either way

*You can spend millions of dollars to remain under .500 / & keep your potential SP prospects from receiving quality starts in a meaningless season.

*If you are not making a run for the playoffs - get those prospects some outings. Get the kinks out this year and full go in 2014.

Most of the discussion in the threads has been about starting pitching. Those "prospects" that you refer at the AAA level are the guys we saw in 2012. I do wish those fellahs well, but have little optimism that they will form the core of a rotation to lead the Twins to playoff heaven. Yes, there are some position player prospects that are close to the major league level--but their progress is not impeded by the FA pitchers in the discussion. Spending money on potential #3s? Why do you contend that they won't be useful beyond the 2-3 year span?--even as a trade? It would be extremely optimistic to believe that the Twins already possess the pitchers in the minors who in 3 years will not only be the entire rotation but be fully successful at the major league level. Last, I (and most likely all of the posters on this thread) will not be spending any money for said #3-type-pitchers anyway, so I say "spend away" and improve this team--even if the season doesn't result in the Twins making the playoffs.

[Highabove]

If you can turn 9-1 losses into 3-1 losses, it would be money well spent. It's just not about win's.

The Fans deserve a much more enjoyable product to watch.

[glunn]

If you can turn 9-1 losses into 3-1 losses, it would be money well spent. It's just not about win's.

The Fans deserve a much more enjoyable product to watch.

 

I think that is a good point. I would add that if Marcum is decent, then he might be tradable for a pitching prospect or two around the trade deadline.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I will ask this:

Would you rather gamble with low cost / potential upside - FA SPers? and use call up prospects in June if all else fails?

OR

Spend $10 to 15 million on potential (#3s) over a 2-3 year span - who will probably maintain their (#3) status for those 2-3 years?

 

*To me you win possibly 10 more games & remain close to .500 either way

*You can spend millions of dollars to remain under .500 / & keep your potential SP prospects from receiving quality starts in a meaningless season.

*If you are not making a run for the playoffs - get those prospects some outings. Get the kinks out this year and full go in 2014.

 

What prospects? The Twins could throw out every decent arm they have (Worley, Gibson, Hendriks, Diamond) and they'd still need two more starting pitchers to have a "stable" rotation. So yeah, instead of taking flyers on low cost, crappy pitchers and seeing ownership pocket the extra money, I'd rather see the team pursue a few free agents that aren't awful and attempt to field a competitive team. I don't care if it only gets them to 75 wins. Ownership has a responsibility to either field a competitive team or buy into the future wholesale and trade the roster. They haven't done either and are currently riding the fence.

 

And, by the hand of God, if you ever find yourself with too many starting pitchers (which has roughly the same probability as being struck by lightning three times), you can trade one of your free agent acquisitions to another team.

[twinsfaninsaudi]

Care to speculate on their final WAR rankings? Marcum has averaged 2.6 WAR over the last 3 seasons, Correia has averaged 0.27 WAR.

 

I'm aware of those numbers and was upon making the prediction, but the short answer is I don't care to speculate on WAR.

[panolo]

We really don't have an idea if Marcum was interested in coming here or even if the Twins made an offer. Granted I was on the bandwagon to give him a whirl but I also was weary because of his arm injury history and a large drop in velocity.

 

We need to be honest with ourselves and understand if we have a true #1 or #2 it isn't going to come through FA. They will be home grown pitchers. I think we also need to be resigned to the fact that until the talent in the minors is balanced from A to AAA that we will have guys like Pelfrey, Correia, etc. in this rotation. The possibility of this being changed is very near and I think they are laying the ground work for it with the trades and last years draft.

 

We are not a contender this year and I don't know if the value of Marcum's 3-5 extra wins is worth holding back some of the younger pitchers or if he would even add up to an attendance spike. His value would have been as a trade piece IF he stayed healthy.

[twinsnorth49]

We really don't have an idea if Marcum was interested in coming here or even if the Twins made an offer. Granted I was on the bandwagon to give him a whirl but I also was weary because of his arm injury history and a large drop in velocity.

 

We need to be honest with ourselves and understand if we have a true #1 or #2 it isn't going to come through FA. They will be home grown pitchers. I think we also need to be resigned to the fact that until the talent in the minors is balanced from A to AAA that we will have guys like Pelfrey, Correia, etc. in this rotation. The possibility of this being changed is very near and I think they are laying the ground work for it with the trades and last years draft.

 

We are not a contender this year and I don't know if the value of Marcum's 3-5 extra wins is worth holding back some of the younger pitchers or if he would even add up to an attendance spike. His value would have been as a trade piece IF he stayed healthy.

 

Who would he have been holding back on a one year deal? Even a two year deal? So what if his value might have been as a trade piece, isn't that a good thing?

 

Why should we be resigned to the Pelfreys and Correia's of the world when we have the money to do better?

[Brock Beauchamp]

We are not a contender this year and I don't know if the value of Marcum's 3-5 extra wins is worth holding back some of the younger pitchers or if he would even add up to an attendance spike. His value would have been as a trade piece IF he stayed healthy.

 

Who will be held back? The Twins have Diamond and Worley in the rotation. Hendriks is going to pitch himself on or off the roster no matter what. Gibson can only pitch 140 innings.

 

I keep hearing people say "don't hold back the youngsters" without realizing that there aren't enough youngsters to hold back.

[edavis0308]

We really don't have an idea if Marcum was interested in coming here or even if the Twins made an offer. Granted I was on the bandwagon to give him a whirl but I also was weary because of his arm injury history and a large drop in velocity.

 

We need to be honest with ourselves and understand if we have a true #1 or #2 it isn't going to come through FA. They will be home grown pitchers. I think we also need to be resigned to the fact that until the talent in the minors is balanced from A to AAA that we will have guys like Pelfrey, Correia, etc. in this rotation. The possibility of this being changed is very near and I think they are laying the ground work for it with the trades and last years draft.

 

We are not a contender this year and I don't know if the value of Marcum's 3-5 extra wins is worth holding back some of the younger pitchers or if he would even add up to an attendance spike. His value would have been as a trade piece IF he stayed healthy.

 

Nobody around here had any expectation whatsoever of signing a true #1 or true #2. None. All anyone around here asked for was one of the pitchers in the #3 category.