Article: Twins trade Denard Span for Nationals' 2011 first round pick

[twinsnorth49]

Is there an ignore feature on this site? Serious question.

 

No, but I've thought about looking into it, if only for my own sanity.

 

Whew, I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way.

 

I'd pay a membership fee for that feature! That and a "blowhard" warning.

[jokin]

I understand that we don't need Span. Doesn't Span have alot more value than Meyer? Doesn't Span have more value than Benson, Hicks, ect,?

Why the rush to trade him? Would not Benson or Hicks for Meyer be better? Could we make the same or better deal next fall?

 

Benson would not land you anything close to Meyer, his value is about as low as it could be currently.

Sure the Twins could have maybe traded Hicks for Meyer, but it would have been a mistake. As nice as 3 years of Span would be, 6+ years of Hicks (for even cheaper overall) is the superior choice to keep for a rebuilding team like the Twins.

 

It should be noted that Hicks has a greater upside then Span had/has as he is a better fielder, has more speed on the basepaths, has more power, has a better arm and a better eye at the plate. The main question with Hicks at this point is will he be able to continue to hit for averag and continue to increase his power.

 

Vodkadave... You should also mention that the Nationals would rather have Span right now because Span will be of more use in 2013.

 

I mean that is probably true, but I'm not sure the Nats would have told the Twins "we have no interest in Hicks". There is a decent to good chance that Hicks can contribute in 2013 and even though the Nats are set up very nicely for 2013, they are set up even more nicely for 2014-2015.I

 

I guess what I am saying is it wouldn't have killed the Nats to bring in Hicks and keep Harper in CF for another half season. I'm just personally glad the Twins traded Span rather then Hicks.

 

The point is moot as the Nats already have their own Hicks in Brian Goodwin. Span has just become his placeholder.

 

Goodwin is a nice prospect, but lets not say he is "their Hicks" he has exactly 100 games in his professional career and struggled quite a bit in AA. Hicks is a easily a superior prospect to Goodwin at this time, ntm Goodwin still might be a corner OF instead of a CF anyways.

 

Let's go to the "source", the guy we all agree has it right on Meyer, John Sickels:

 

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/7/2/3130761/top-120-prospect-list-for-2012-midseason-revision-update

 

John Sickels Top 120 Prospects (2012 Mid-season Updated Edition)

 

#12 Miguel Sano (MN Twins)

 

#45 Eddie Rosario (Mn Twins)

 

 

#64. Oswaldo Arcia (MN Twins)

#65 Brian Goodwin (Wa Nats)

#74 Alex Meyer (Mn Twins)

 

#120-----------

 

 

Players under consideration who didn't make the top 120

 

Aaron Hicks (MN Twins)

[Twins Twerp]

More people viewed this page than bought lottery tickets last night...fact based analysis.

[ScottyB]

Is there an ignore feature on this site? Serious question.

 

No, but I've thought about looking into it, if only for my own sanity.

 

Double click on the icon (or name and choose view profile) of the person you want to ignore and choose the option "Add to ignore list".

[Top Gun]

Meyers & Hicks are prospects and nothin more, who is to say he can replace Span, could easily be someone else. The same goes for Meyers. The Twins could play like the Orioles next season why the rush to trade Span now for a prospect when we can do it when we are 10 games out and in last place. The fans need a team this year too, not in 4 or 5 years. I won't even be around to see it by then.

[twinsnorth49]

If Ryan had made this move at the trade deadline everybody would have lauded it, to get a relatively high ceiling pitching prospect for a guy like Span is more than acceptable and is an appropriate direction to take. The two biggest needs identified by the majority of posters here are either major league ready starting pitching and starting pitching depth on the farm, seems to me TR just helped to address the latter and he addressed it from a position of organizational depth.

 

To categorize this as a salary dump is just taking the extreme cynical view. To profess these types of moves are necessary for the team to move forward and criticize Ryan for not having the foresight to make them, only to turn around and accuse him of dumping salary when he does, is at best disingenuous.

 

Unless you just want to be one of those who see fit to convince themselves that Meyers will ultimately be a bust, I don't see the problem with this move.

[Bark's Lounge]

Meyers & Hicks are prospects and nothin more, who is to say he can replace Span, could easily be someone else. The same goes for Meyers. The Twins could play like the Orioles next season why the rush to trade Span now for a prospect when we can do it when we are 10 games out and in last place. The fans need a team this year too, not in 4 or 5 years. I won't even be around to see it by then.

 

Top Gun. I cannot guess on your health status, but in my deepest heart of hearts, I hope you are around to see the next Twins World Championship.

[Riverbrian]

I understand that we don't need Span. Doesn't Span have alot more value than Meyer? Doesn't Span have more value than Benson, Hicks, ect,?

Why the rush to trade him? Would not Benson or Hicks for Meyer be better? Could we make the same or better deal next fall?

 

Benson would not land you anything close to Meyer, his value is about as low as it could be currently.

Sure the Twins could have maybe traded Hicks for Meyer, but it would have been a mistake. As nice as 3 years of Span would be, 6+ years of Hicks (for even cheaper overall) is the superior choice to keep for a rebuilding team like the Twins.

 

It should be noted that Hicks has a greater upside then Span had/has as he is a better fielder, has more speed on the basepaths, has more power, has a better arm and a better eye at the plate. The main question with Hicks at this point is will he be able to continue to hit for averag and continue to increase his power.

 

Vodkadave... You should also mention that the Nationals would rather have Span right now because Span will be of more use in 2013.

 

I mean that is probably true, but I'm not sure the Nats would have told the Twins "we have no interest in Hicks". There is a decent to good chance that Hicks can contribute in 2013 and even though the Nats are set up very nicely for 2013, they are set up even more nicely for 2014-2015.I

 

I guess what I am saying is it wouldn't have killed the Nats to bring in Hicks and keep Harper in CF for another half season. I'm just personally glad the Twins traded Span rather then Hicks.

 

The point is moot as the Nats already have their own Hicks in Brian Goodwin. Span has just become his placeholder.

 

Goodwin is a nice prospect, but lets not say he is "their Hicks" he has exactly 100 games in his professional career and struggled quite a bit in AA. Hicks is a easily a superior prospect to Goodwin at this time, ntm Goodwin still might be a corner OF instead of a CF anyways.

 

Let's go to the "source", the guy we all agree has it right on Meyer, John Sickels:

 

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/7/2/3130761/top-120-prospect-list-for-2012-midseason-revision-update

 

John Sickels Top 120 Prospects (2012 Mid-season Updated Edition)

 

#12 Miguel Sano (MN Twins)

 

#45 Eddie Rosario (Mn Twins)

 

 

#64. Oswaldo Arcia (MN Twins)

#65 Brian Goodwin (Wa Nats)

#74 Alex Meyer (Mn Twins)

 

#120-----------

 

 

Players under consideration who didn't make the top 120

 

Aaron Hicks (MN Twins)

 

The argument has gone from Span/Meyer to Hicks/Goodwin and when I wake up tomorrow morning It will probably move furthur down the line into calculating electron cloud shapes.

[jokin]

If Ryan had made this move at the trade deadline everybody would have lauded it, to get a relatively high ceiling pitching prospect for a guy like Span is more than acceptable and is an appropriate direction to take. The two biggest needs identified by the majority of posters here are either major league ready starting pitching and starting pitching depth on the farm, seems to me TR just helped to address the latter and he addressed it from a position of organizational depth.

 

To categorize this as a salary dump is just taking the extreme cynical view. To profess these types of moves are necessary for the team to move forward and criticize Ryan for not having the foresight to make them, only to turn around and accuse him of dumping salary when he does, is at best disingenuous.

 

Unless you just want to be one of those who see fit to convince themselves that Meyers will ultimately be a bust, I don't see the problem with this move.

 

This is an agressive move that helps the team move forward. It officially acknowledges that the Twins are in rebuilding mode, as they should be. They made an attempt at going for, at best, a future #1-2 starter, or at worst, a closer/set-up guy. It does cut payroll in the short run, to set the team up better as the next wave emerges in 2014-15-16. Span was the #1 logical trading chip to acquiring a front-end SP and still maintain the semblance of a strong positional lineup to have a chance to make a run in 2013. If anyone can show evidence that the Twins are going to go all-in on signing Greinke and another top #2 FA pitcher, it's time to present the evidence or admit the truth. Any move coming up at the Winter Meetings or later can only serve to weaken the positional lineup and/or to further cut payroll in the short run (trading of one or more of the Big 3), to set up a stronger push in 2014 or 15.

 

I can't speak for other posters, but I was certainly hoping a move like this was multi-player to better address the multi-needs. It's unfortunate and disappointing that Span (with or without a package) couldn't have garnered more than just one pitcher currently at A level and with mechanical issues in a tall pitcher that in the past have appeared to be beyond the Twins level of expertise in fixing.

[Otwins]

You can see Meyer's college stats here:

 

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=alex-meyer-3

 

His previous high innings total was 101, so perhaps he tired later this season in high-A. He was "shut down" at 129 innings, Strasburg-style. I like that he's already made progress with control -- hopefully the Twins can keep his K rate up.

 

Here's a cool article about him and his pitches:

 

http://www.milb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120831&content_id=37671602&vkey=news_milb&fext=.jsp

 

Thanks for the links. Meyer said he needs to refine his circle change. Sounds like Cuellar has another spring training assignment

[jcphitman]

Longtime reader ... first time poster.

 

When I first read about the trade, I shook my head and figured here we go again. The Twins trade their best tradeable asset for one minor leaguer. After I started reading about, Meyer, I changed my mind.

 

I think Ryan's quote in the strib article sums it all up:

"These guys are hard to get, and if you are going to get them, it's going to be in the low-to-mid minors. Once they get up to Double A or Triple A, they are almost impossible to get." (http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/181434491.html)

 

We all knew we weren't going to get an ace or number 2 for Span in the majors, AAA, or AA. The best we could hope for might be a number 4. TR had to go to high A to get the best pitcher he could for Span.

 

I'm glad we didn't use Span and other prospects to get Shields. Why waste Span and currency (prospects such as Rozario, Hicks, etc.) in our minor league system for 2 years of Shields before he commands top dollar to stay and further hurt payroll? Rolling the dice on Meyer is the way to go. No guarantees he'll be good, but the Twins at least gave themselves a chance at a strong pitcher by bringing him in.

 

I'd rather have taken Meyer (I'll say "B" level prospect) then hope for two C prospects or a C and a few D prospects in return for Span. The Twins probably could have taken a quantity of lesser prospects, but they sacrificed more pieces coming back for quality. They put all their Span eggs in one basket for Meyer, but he has the best chance at producing vs. any other number of lesser prospects the Nats may have agreed to send.

 

I think it's silly fans (especially on the strib) are ripping the Twins for the move (the early replies of what I read). They don't understand baseball and how valuable young pitching is. You don't just buy young pitchers for 3 million like you do NBA draft picks. You need to either hit them right on the draft or trade impact players away to get the prospects. Span brought us the best pitcher he could. I'm satisfied based on Meyer's potential alone. Let's hope he's blessed enough to avoid Tommy John and cash in for a long MLB career with the Twins!

[old nurse]

More people viewed this page than bought lottery tickets last night...fact based analysis.

 

Half of the views are from Dave and joking going back and forth.

[old nurse]

I'm wondering if people upset with the trade are more upset with the return or how far away the return seems? Had the Twins gotten Tijuan Walker, who is far away but a top ten prospect, would some of you folks still be disappointed? Serious question not trying to provoke.

 

Yes they would have. Based on what they complain about they appear to have expected as sure thing front end starter for Span.

[Top Gun]

Bark's L thanks for your well wishes. Nothin would be better than to see the Twins win. Twins winning is happiness.

[jokin]

Longtime reader ... first time poster.

 

When I first read about the trade, I shook my head and figured here we go again. The Twins trade their best tradeable asset for one minor leaguer. After I started reading about, Meyer, I changed my mind.

 

I think Ryan's quote in the strib article sums it all up:

"These guys are hard to get, and if you are going to get them, it's going to be in the low-to-mid minors. Once they get up to Double A or Triple A, they are almost impossible to get." (http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/181434491.html)

 

We all knew we weren't going to get an ace or number 2 for Span in the majors, AAA, or AA. The best we could hope for might be a number 4. TR had to go to high A to get the best pitcher he could for Span.

 

I'm glad we didn't use Span and other prospects to get Shields. Why waste Span and currency (prospects such as Rozario, Hicks, etc.) in our minor league system for 2 years of Shields before he commands top dollar to stay and further hurt payroll? Rolling the dice on Meyer is the way to go. No guarantees he'll be good, but the Twins at least gave themselves a chance at a strong pitcher by bringing him in.

 

I'd rather have taken Meyer (I'll say "B" level prospect) then hope for two C prospects or a C and a few D prospects in return for Span. The Twins probably could have taken a quantity of lesser prospects, but they sacrificed more pieces coming back for quality. They put all their Span eggs in one basket for Meyer, but he has the best chance at producing vs. any other number of lesser prospects the Nats may have agreed to send.

 

I think it's silly fans (especially on the strib) are ripping the Twins for the move (the early replies of what I read). They don't understand baseball and how valuable young pitching is. You don't just buy young pitchers for 3 million like you do NBA draft picks. You need to either hit them right on the draft or trade impact players away to get the prospects. Span brought us the best pitcher he could. I'm satisfied based on Meyer's potential alone. Let's hope he's blessed enough to avoid Tommy John and cash in for a long MLB career with the Twins!

 

Excellent first post. Hopefully first of many.

 

I concur in going for gold over tin. But I still wish they could have poked around to get a better deal from favorable trading parteners like Cincy, Tampa or Texas. The Twins got fleeced once by the Nats already and they are primed to essentially "stand pat" and tinker with their roster as they prepare for a likely World Series run in 2013. It seems like the Twins might have been able to coax another piece or two currently blocked at the Major League level.

[jokin]

I'm wondering if people upset with the trade are more upset with the return or how far away the return seems? Had the Twins gotten Tijuan Walker, who is far away but a top ten prospect, would some of you folks still be disappointed? Serious question not trying to provoke.

 

Yes they would have. Based on what they complain about they appear to have expected as sure thing front end starter for Span.

 

After being teased in the media about going after guys like Shields and Cingrani, can you see why expectations had to be adjusted?

[ashbury]

Late to the party here tonight, but I'll chime in that this is the kind of trade I was hoping for - a high ceiling pitcher in exchange for an average MLB-proven CFer. I was kind of hoping for a second prospect (maybe in exchange for a throw-in by the Twins), but this is OK. As always, I have no fundamental insight into prospects so as armchair GM I have to trust "my" scouts on the choice of the pitcher to trade for.

 

The loss of Span frees up a little money that can be spent (with money already earmarked) on pitching to keep 2013-14 from being a disaster that would harm cashflow for when they are ready to compete again in 2015 or so. Should be an interesting winter, with this as the opening salvo.

[jokin]

Late to the party here tonight, but I'll chime in that this is the kind of trade I was hoping for - a high ceiling pitcher in exchange for an average MLB-proven CFer. I was kind of hoping for a second prospect (maybe in exchange for a throw-in by the Twins), but this is OK. As always, I have no fundamental insight into prospects so as armchair GM I have to trust "my" scouts on the choice of the pitcher to trade for.

 

The loss of Span frees up a little money that can be spent (with money already earmarked) on pitching to keep 2013-14 from being a disaster that would harm cashflow for when they are ready to compete again in 2015 or so. Should be an interesting winter, with this as the opening salvo.

 

Salvo #2 hot off the wires at MLBTradeRumors:

 

In an interview with 1500 ESPN Twin Cities radio (via Phil Mackey of 1500 ESPN), Twins assistant GM Rob Antony said his team will likely pursue free agents over trades at the Winter Meetings. "We probably don't have a lot of pieces that we do have to trade for starting pitching [with Denard Span now gone]," Antony said. "We'll probably be a little more aggressive and spend our time at the winter meetings talking to agents rather than clubs."

 

This could get interesting............................or it could mean Joe Saunders and that other Myers guy is their definition of "a little more agressive".

[old nurse]

I'm wondering if people upset with the trade are more upset with the return or how far away the return seems? Had the Twins gotten Tijuan Walker, who is far away but a top ten prospect, would some of you folks still be disappointed? Serious question not trying to provoke.

 

Yes they would have. Based on what they complain about they appear to have expected as sure thing front end starter for Span.

 

After being teased in the media about going after guys like Shields and Cingrani, can you see why expectations had to be adjusted?

 

Media claims are about as close to reality as Thyrloss's last scoop. If Shields is traded it is going to net Tampa more than anything the Twins would offer. I am not sure what to make of the Reds talk. Shortstops seem harder to find than outfielders so it would have taken more than Span to swing that.

[old nurse]

[

 

Salvo #2 hot off the wires at MLBTradeRumors:

 

This could get interesting............................or it could mean Joe Saunders and that other Myers guy is their definition of "a little more agressive".

 

It could mean Marcum and Sanchez. That would be aggressive.

[jokin]

I'm wondering if people upset with the trade are more upset with the return or how far away the return seems? Had the Twins gotten Tijuan Walker, who is far away but a top ten prospect, would some of you folks still be disappointed? Serious question not trying to provoke.

 

Yes they would have. Based on what they complain about they appear to have expected as sure thing front end starter for Span.

 

After being teased in the media about going after guys like Shields and Cingrani, can you see why expectations had to be adjusted?

 

Media claims are about as close to reality as Thyrloss's last scoop. If Shields is traded it is going to net Tampa more than anything the Twins would offer. I am not sure what to make of the Reds talk. Shortstops seem harder to find than outfielders so it would have taken more than Span to swing that.

 

I wasn't in denial that it would have taken a package deal to get it done. As Twins fans all we have are the games of chicken and poker during the Hot Stove season, expectations, bluffs and ultimate realities have to get recalibrated here, that's all.

[jokin]

[

 

Salvo #2 hot off the wires at MLBTradeRumors:

 

This could get interesting............................or it could mean Joe Saunders and that other Myers guy is their definition of "a little more agressive".

 

It could mean Marcum and Sanchez. That would be aggressive.

 

Yes, that would be agressive and would definitely float a lot of boats in Twinsland, unfortunately St Antony threw in that quaint qualifier, 'a little more'

[jokin]

I'm wondering if people upset with the trade are more upset with the return or how far away the return seems? Had the Twins gotten Tijuan Walker, who is far away but a top ten prospect, would some of you folks still be disappointed? Serious question not trying to provoke.

 

Yes they would have. Based on what they complain about they appear to have expected as sure thing front end starter for Span.

 

After being teased in the media about going after guys like Shields and Cingrani, can you see why expectations had to be adjusted?

 

Media claims are about as close to reality as Thyrloss's last scoop. If Shields is traded it is going to net Tampa more than anything the Twins would offer. I am not sure what to make of the Reds talk. Shortstops seem harder to find than outfielders so it would have taken more than Span to swing that.

 

Are you thinking of Gregorious? Cingrani is the lights-out AA LHP who is for now at least, temporaily blocked from the majors by Chapman moving over from closer to the rotation.

[drivlikejehu]

The Twins are devoid of pitching throughout the organization. One pitcher just isn't going to make enough of a difference in the long run. Oakland returned to contention after years of stockpiling good young arms.

 

Now, it may well be that this is the best return the Twins would ever get for Span, though it certainly seems light. But even if it is the best possible deal, it just highlights the dire straits the organization is in. They don't have the assets to trade their way out of it, nor the willingness to acquire quality free agent starters.

[Shane Wahl]

Well, well, well, they finally did it. What this means, clearly, is that the team doesn't care about 2013 or 2014 and is waiting until 2015 when the top 6-10 prospects are either going to be rookies or second-year players. SOOOO . . . I would definitely want this to be blow-up central with AT LEAST Morneau dealt (Boston???) as well, if not Willingham and others. I think the trade is ok right now, but 2013 is going to be REALLY bad.

[Top Gun]

Jerry Crasnick of ESPN.com hears that the Rockies' asking price for Dexter Fowler is "sky high" and the outfielder is unlikely to be traded.

 

Crasnick also notes that potentially interested teams are concerned about Fowler's career splits, as he boasts an .882 OPS at Coors Field in his career but a .698 mark on the road. It's still early in the offseason, so things could change once more center field dominoes fall, but it appears that Fowler will probably stay put.

 

 

Source: Jerry Crasnick on Twitter Would any other mlb team trade there starting cf & lead off hitter away like the Twins did?

[Shane Wahl]

Meyer is going to be the real deal, so that is not at all coloring my trepidation here. I just don't like the idea of giving up on the next two years (UNLESS a complete youth movement is in store, because that would be very interesting to watch--in the next two years, Parmelee, Hicks, Arcia, Herrmann, and Benson add interest).

 

Anyway, Meyer was a ridiculous beast in HS, striking out more than 2 an inning his senior year. I am definitely excited about his future and he is clearly the best pitching prospect in the system. With a healthy Gibson and a quick-moving Berrios, the Twins could have a remarkable 1-2-3 by 2015.

[Shane Wahl]

In the meantime, sign Marcum and Sanchez and go balls to the wall. Damn it.

[Shane Wahl]

By the way, I wouldn't be opposed to a trade for another Indiana Mr. Baseball in Clayton Richard from the Padres. Hermsen, Swarzak, and Morales would likely bring that about. Or some other trade configuration.

[twinstalker]

Haven't read through the last eighty or so comments, but I just saw this tidbit out there on the interwebz:

 

Meyer is a Boras client.

 

That should tell us all we need to know about how horribly the Twins will handle Meyer and his contract status each year. Meyer will never sign a team-friendly contract, and the Twins will likely shop him too late. Oh, well. The initial excitement about this just wore off. Let's hope he provides a positive contribution his first few years.

 

On the other hand, it will maybe keep the Twins from handing out a Blackburn/Mays/Baker contract when they don't have to.