Article: Bloodbath

[SweetOne69]

As for Gardy currently being on a one year contract, correct me if I am wrong, but haven't the Twins traditionally signed him to a 1 yr contract with an option year every year? I believe that the contract is usually quietly signed in November/December. I wouldn't put a lot of stock in him being on the "hot seat".

 

You are wrong. The Twins and Gardy have almost always agreed to 2 year extensions when he had 1 year remaining on his contract

[Fire Dan Gladden]

As for Gardy currently being on a one year contract, correct me if I am wrong, but haven't the Twins traditionally signed him to a 1 yr contract with an option year every year? I believe that the contract is usually quietly signed in November/December. I wouldn't put a lot of stock in him being on the "hot seat".

 

You are wrong. The Twins and Gardy have almost always agreed to 2 year extensions when he had 1 year remaining on his contract

 

But they tore up his existing contract in the process correct? Meaning that he was always working on a 2 year contract. I do believe it was always done around the winter meetings. If goes into the season with a one year contract, and no talk of an extension, then I will believe the lame duck status. Otherwise no.

[Fire Dan Gladden]

The sad part of this whole mess, is that if the Twins starting pitching stayed healthy (beyond the coaches control I might add), this team would probably be around .500, these changes would not have happened, and we would be talking about the 1 or 2 moves the team could make to be competitive, instead of complaining about the organization being stagnant.

 

.500 would have been a lofty goal with the rotation set up as it was originally.

 

Liriano, Blackburn, and Marquis DID stay healthy. Baker and Pavano... do you think that, combined, they were worth 15 more wins than the replacements? I don't.

 

Baker and Pavano healthy, Marquis being there for Spring Training, Blackburn and Liriano would not have been given as long a leash as they were, less starts from Duensing and Hendricks. That combination could have added up to close to 15 additional wins, yes.

[jharaldson]

Where are all the people complaining about how the medical staff is the problem and that nothing will be done about it?

This is obviously an important first step in addressing the critics of the medical staff for the Twins but it is not the last step. Here are the things I will be looking for to see if this turns into something I would look on as a positive change:

 

1. Trainer is filled from outside this organization. A fresh way of doing things is a must.
   
2. Trainer is interviewed by a beat reporter and addresses in some way the issues that have frustrated fans and what they look to either do about it or how the fans have misconceptions about those issues.
   
3. We have surgeries this November and December on this team instead of Spring Training.
   

 

The one I am most interested in above is someone from outside this org and that applies to all the coaching spots. If this turns into a migration of folks from Rochester to Minneapolis then these firings are pointless. If we take select guys from Rochester and fill this trainer spot and one or two other coaching positions with fresh voices then this has a chance to matter somewhat.

[Thrylos]

I haven't bothered to sit down and look this up, but I have to wonder how many managers in the past have had consecutive 90-loss seasons and not been replaced.

 

I asked this on another thread. I do know of one for sure, and it illustrates the current problem. Tom Kelly. 97,98,99,00 (with loss totals of 97,92,97,93).

 

And who was the GM then?

[Thrylos]

Any bets about what Morneau's future will be with the team now that he has expressed disappointment with the team for getting rid of Vavra? Now accepting bets that Mornie will now be traded this offseason (although that might send the wrong message).

 

Morneau should have been traded in the deadline... $14 million is way too much for his production. Willingham is making half as much and Parmelee can fit in. That $14 million would (and I hope will) go a long way toward fixing the rotation

 

And if Morneau does not like the fact that Vavry was reassigned, he can follow him in his new team, if there will be one. He is a free agent after next season.

[PseudoSABR]

From LEN3

+Paul Molitor is NOT a candidate for a spot on the staff. "Just not a fit," Ryan said.

[Thrylos]

From LEN3

+Paul Molitor is NOT a candidate for a spot on the staff. "Just not a fit," Ryan said.

 

I guess being in the Hall of Fame and winning a World Championship and being to the WS twice as a player are not good enough credentials, unlike those of Gardy, Andy (ok he won a WS), Vavry and Scotty...

[jokin]

I haven't bothered to sit down and look this up, but I have to wonder how many managers in the past have had consecutive 90-loss seasons and not been replaced.

 

I asked this on another thread. I do know of one for sure, and it illustrates the current problem. Tom Kelly. 97,98,99,00 (with loss totals of 97,92,97,93).

 

And who was the GM then?

 

You and your common threads. Stop with your whining facts!

[jokin]

Pretty much the way it is in every war.

 

The Generals and the Colonels (Gardenhire & Anderson) are pretty darn safe.

 

The captains (Ullger & Vavra) are reassigned to positions further away from the battlefield.

 

The lieutenants, corporals and privates (Stelly, White, Liddle, McWane) are dead.

 

It is a ridiculous way to effect change in an organization.

 

Yeah, and the whole premise of this article turns out to be "overkill" as somehow Nick Nelson's pictured weapon for his "Bloodbath" should have been a hatchet instead of an axe.

 

And, as it turns out, the clean-up from this bloodbath will only require a sponge rather than Zamboni.

[Thrylos]

Pretty much the way it is in every war.

 

The Generals and the Colonels (Gardenhire & Anderson) are pretty darn safe.

 

The captains (Ullger & Vavra) are reassigned to positions further away from the battlefield.

 

The lieutenants, corporals and privates (Stelly, White, Liddle, McWane) are dead.

 

It is a ridiculous way to effect change in an organization.

 

Yeah, and the whole premise of this article turns out to be "overkill" as somehow Nick Nelson's pictured weapon for his "Bloodbath" should have been a hatchet instead of an axe.

 

And, as it turns out, the clean-up from this bloodbath will only require a sponge rather than Zamboni.

 

Hatchet?

 

ok. Let's re-examine who was let go:

 

2 60+ year old guys and someone who was on the record saying that he will retire after this season.

 

sounds more like a stapler than a hatchet

[Jim H]

Actually, I think some changes in the staff were a bit overdue. In fact, over the years Ryan used to bring a younger guy onto the staff every few years. He would often remove a guy who had gotten a little too old or maybe didn't fit as well as he should, or had left for a different opportunity. This staff had stayed almost intact for a long time. While that has some good points, a little change probably should of happened before now.

 

Clearly, all 3 guys basically fired, were pretty old. While being old shouldn't be an overriding reason for leaving, there are a lot of pretty active things generally required of coaches. Such as pitching batting practice, hitting fungos, etc. There are also communication issues, such as having a Spanish speeching coach, and maybe younger coaches who possibly can relate better to players.

 

My take is Ryan is taking this opportunity get his coaching staff a little younger, perhaps change a little too comfortable mix, and maybe put a man on the staff who could be a reasonable successor to Gardenhire, when he retires/is fired.

[Fire Dan Gladden]

From LEN3

+Paul Molitor is NOT a candidate for a spot on the staff. "Just not a fit," Ryan said.

 

I guess being in the Hall of Fame and winning a World Championship and being to the WS twice as a player are not good enough credentials, unlike those of Gardy, Andy (ok he won a WS), Vavry and Scotty...

 

Yep, and we all know that every great player makes a great coach. This comment makes no sense and is not supported in any way,

[Fire Dan Gladden]

Pretty much the way it is in every war.

 

The Generals and the Colonels (Gardenhire & Anderson) are pretty darn safe.

 

The captains (Ullger & Vavra) are reassigned to positions further away from the battlefield.

 

The lieutenants, corporals and privates (Stelly, White, Liddle, McWane) are dead.

 

It is a ridiculous way to effect change in an organization.

 

Yeah, and the whole premise of this article turns out to be "overkill" as somehow Nick Nelson's pictured weapon for his "Bloodbath" should have been a hatchet instead of an axe.

 

And, as it turns out, the clean-up from this bloodbath will only require a sponge rather than Zamboni.

 

Hatchet?

 

ok. Let's re-examine who was let go:

 

2 60+ year old guys and someone who was on the record saying that he will retire after this season.

 

sounds more like a stapler than a hatchet

 

Now the factthat they are over 60 yrs old makes them a bad coach? Ageism is against the law you know.

[Jim H]

Now the factthat they are over 60 yrs old makes them a bad coach? Ageism is against the law you know

.

 

As it happens I am over 60 and can tell you about age and the workplace. Yes, age isn't going to be cited in the release of the various coaches by the Twins. Clearly, however it is a factor. The coaches are required to do any number of active things from throwing batting practice to hitting fungos, to running/hitting infield, etc. If you have too many coaches who are limited in what they can do, it becomes a problem.

 

I can see the need on the Twins staff for Spanish speaking members and perhaps someone who could be a successor to Gardenhire. Now the Twins aren't going to speak to openly about some of these things, but they likely should of have been addressed gradually over the last few years. Since they weren't, the poor play over the last 2 years offers some justification for doing it now.

[Thrylos]

Pretty much the way it is in every war.

 

The Generals and the Colonels (Gardenhire & Anderson) are pretty darn safe.

 

The captains (Ullger & Vavra) are reassigned to positions further away from the battlefield.

 

The lieutenants, corporals and privates (Stelly, White, Liddle, McWane) are dead.

 

It is a ridiculous way to effect change in an organization.

 

Yeah, and the whole premise of this article turns out to be "overkill" as somehow Nick Nelson's pictured weapon for his "Bloodbath" should have been a hatchet instead of an axe.

 

And, as it turns out, the clean-up from this bloodbath will only require a sponge rather than Zamboni.

 

Hatchet?

 

ok. Let's re-examine who was let go:

 

2 60+ year old guys and someone who was on the record saying that he will retire after this season.

 

sounds more like a stapler than a hatchet

 

Now the factthat they are over 60 yrs old makes them a bad coach? Ageism is against the law you know.

 

No. The fact that they are in their sixties makes them close to retirement.

[old nurse]

From LEN3

+Paul Molitor is NOT a candidate for a spot on the staff. "Just not a fit," Ryan said.

 

I guess being in the Hall of Fame and winning a World Championship and being to the WS twice as a player are not good enough credentials, unlike those of Gardy, Andy (ok he won a WS), Vavry and Scotty...

 

Coaches have to work together. Perhaps Molitor and Gardenhire are not in the same book? There are plenty people who played in championships that could not manage. It is a different skill set.

Your comments in regards to age of coaches and managers to perform their jobs reflect a limitation of your ability to analyze a situation.

[geshirley]

I am curious about the Vavra (infield) and Ullger (outfield) pedigrees for their new positions. It lends itself to having one full time and one part time hitting coach if Vavra stays at the major league level, which is kind of unclear at this point. Probably too soon to tell.

I agree that keeping Cuellar and Bruno may have had more to do with this than many will give credit. It will be fun to see who, if anyone, comes up from within the organization.

 

Here's a little on Joe Vavra from Wikipedia, I've known Joe for 20+ years, (since his days with the Dodgers) he was a very good fielding middle infielder and after his playing days were over he became a very good manager. Despite what you may see from him as a hitting coach, as a manager he is firey and intense and is very entertaining when he goes after an umpire. I'm maybe a little bias since he is a friend but I think he is a very good baseball guy and a assest to the Twins. I think that's why he was kept around and reassigned.

 

Beginning in 1987, Vavra coached in the Dodger's minor league system. While at Yakima, Washington in Class A, he was named Manager of the Year for 1994 and 1996 for the Northwest League after winning the Division title in 1994 and the League championship in 1996. Vavra coached for ten years in the minors before moving to the Dodgers major league staff. He served in special assignments and as a roving coach before becoming the permanent bunting and baserunning coach in 2000.

After a brief stint as the head coach of UW–Stout baseball, Vavra joined the Twins staff in 2002. On October 27, 2005, Vavra was named the Twins' hitting coach.

Vavra attended the 2008 MLB Home Run Derby at Yankee Stadium to pitch for Justin Morneau. Morneau beat Josh Hamilton to win the Home Run Derby.

During Vavra's tenure in Minnesota, the Twins have consistently ranked among the best in the league for both individual and team hitting stats.

[Fire Dan Gladden]

Pretty much the way it is in every war.

 

The Generals and the Colonels (Gardenhire & Anderson) are pretty darn safe.

 

The captains (Ullger & Vavra) are reassigned to positions further away from the battlefield.

 

The lieutenants, corporals and privates (Stelly, White, Liddle, McWane) are dead.

 

It is a ridiculous way to effect change in an organization.

 

Yeah, and the whole premise of this article turns out to be "overkill" as somehow Nick Nelson's pictured weapon for his "Bloodbath" should have been a hatchet instead of an axe.

 

And, as it turns out, the clean-up from this bloodbath will only require a sponge rather than Zamboni.

 

Hatchet?

 

ok. Let's re-examine who was let go:

 

2 60+ year old guys and someone who was on the record saying that he will retire after this season.

 

sounds more like a stapler than a hatchet

 

Now the factthat they are over 60 yrs old makes them a bad coach? Ageism is against the law you know.

 

No. The fact that they are in their sixties makes them close to retirement.

 

Somebody better tell Jim Leyland, Davey Johnson, Charlie Manuel, Dusty Baker, and Ron Washington that they are too old to be managing.

[Fire Dan Gladden]

Now the factthat they are over 60 yrs old makes them a bad coach? Ageism is against the law you know

.

 

As it happens I am over 60 and can tell you about age and the workplace. Yes, age isn't going to be cited in the release of the various coaches by the Twins. Clearly, however it is a factor. The coaches are required to do any number of active things from throwing batting practice to hitting fungos, to running/hitting infield, etc. If you have too many coaches who are limited in what they can do, it becomes a problem.

 

I can see the need on the Twins staff for Spanish speaking members and perhaps someone who could be a successor to Gardenhire. Now the Twins aren't going to speak to openly about some of these things, but they likely should of have been addressed gradually over the last few years. Since they weren't, the poor play over the last 2 years offers some justification for doing it now.

 

As a manager that has managed hundreds of employees, I can tell you that statement is garbage, even in sports.

 

Let's start with an easy one: NBA officials. NBA officials generally get better with age. Many of them are in their late 50's and early 60's with no signs of slowing down. Heck, Dick Bavetta, considered one of the best refs in the league, turns 73 in December. Don't think they have to be physically fit in their jobs?

 

The list of D1 Baskteball coaches over the age of 60 is too long to list.

 

MLB: Jim Leyland, Davey Johnson, Charlie Manuel, Dusty Baker, Ron Washington...

 

Maybe you couldn't physically handle the rigors of professional sports at your age, but don't lump everybodyu into the same boat. I would much rather have a qualified individual in their 60's or 70's than a leeser one in their 40's. If anybody tells you otherwise, they are a poor decision maker.

[Paul]

The "bloodbath" seems to me to be a perfectly logical first step to regain the clubhouse. It's either this or you have a fire sale. It's essential for the on field staff, the players, and the FO to all be pulling in the same direction. There's a tremendous value in that synergy.