Dozens killed by truck in France

[twinsnorth49]

 

That's fine, perhaps I phrased it poorly, but there are clearly ways to drop some of the practices and the rigidity of enforcement.  It's done all over the Western world by Muslims.  Whatever term you want to use to explain that, I'll agree with.  Or it's time to reform the law itself.  

 

As I said - change the practice, call it whatever you want.

That's the point though, Shariah law is Islam, you can't separate them.

 

Shariah has four bases, two of which are consensus and analogical jiristic reasoning. Jurist law may be closer to what we are talking about considering it's based in human reasoning but it still can't be removed, only those who choose to keep it in the past, which was  never it's purpose.

[TheLeviathan]

 

That's the point though, Shariah law is Islam, you can't separate them.

 

Shariah has four bases, two of which are consensus and analogical jiristic reasoning. Jurist law may be closer to what we are talking about considering it's based in human reasoning but it still can't be removed, only those who choose to keep it in the past, which was  never it's purpose.

 

But you can change the practice.  Perhaps I should have been more clear - oppressive interpretations of shariah law should be changed.  The Pew poll seemed to garner different opinions, but largely used the term as a way of describing a replacement form of law that is more harsh/Islamic.

 

We often speak of the Old Testament being over-ridden by the New, but we don't throw it out.  Overtime Christians have just chosen to emphasize other teachings  instead.  To me, I hear "Sharia Law" as more commonly a parallel to "Old Testament".  

[Badsmerf]

The misleading statement about those that support isis, is that even among that that don't support them, they also aren't overwhelmingly rejecting them. The ones that do, are very much the minority and not living in the region (mostly due to being chased out).

[TheLeviathan]

 

The misleading statement about those that support isis, is that even among that that don't support them, they also aren't overwhelmingly rejecting them. The ones that do, are very much the minority and not living in the region (mostly due to being chased out).

 

Or killed.  Try being a blogger or a feminist over there.....

[Mike Sixel]

 

The misleading statement about those that support isis, is that even among that that don't support them, they also aren't overwhelmingly rejecting them. The ones that do, are very much the minority and not living in the region (mostly due to being chased out).

 

And you know this how? It's kind of dangerous to admit your true thoughts in some regions.....how do you know what people think?

[Bark's Lounge]

Just think about all of the great minds we have lost because of Sharia Law... maybe Wahhabism Sharia Law is a more acceptable term... yeah, I am on board with that.

 

Generally, I care for all people of this planet. There are so many cultures, so many cool and interesting traditions, great food, great ideas, great hospitality, etc., etc...

 

As a human being, I know The Wahhabism sect of Islam is wrong, it is inhumane, it dictates that woman are property, it destroy valuable personal experiences, it kills the hope of being the person you want be, it snuffs out any hope of doing something fantastic that is outside the bounds of the religion. It is egregious, and I feel so awful for the people stuck in these situations.

 

It is a flawed mechanism of that Branch of Islam and Wahhabism is responsible for Islamic State and Al Qaeda.

 

Back to my first sentence: Because of this belief, we have lost many people who could have had a great and direct effect on the future of our species. Diseases could have been cured. New philosophies could have enlightened our minds as a collective, great art was lost in all spectrums of that arena. The common man and woman was enslaved to a set of rules that are not fitting to any living creature.

 

It is obvious to see. It is not a riddle. It is against all the rules of being a humanist. It is obscene and a crime against humanity.

[PseudoSABR]

I don't think anyone is arguing that there's a lot of inhumanity found in Islamic practice, but again, I think, that's a separate (though related) issue from the violence perpetuated by jihadists, terrorists, or whatever the preferred nomenclature is.  

 

How does what Saudi Arabia's practice of Islam affect ISIS or much less the Orlando and San Bernadino shooters?  Sure, the long view would be that as the Muslim world would reject their oppressive beliefs, Islam wouldn't endorse, or allow for, such terrorist acts.   But the only way terrorism would actually be curtailed even in the long view is if the basis of terrorism is really rooted in Islam itself and not individual Muslims experience of the world vis-a-vis the acts (both present and past) of Western culture. 

 

Getting rid of Sharia law doesn't eliminate Israel, it doesn't eliminate the economic depravity of much the middle east, it probably doesn't necessarily change individual Muslim's attitude's about the West either.  I think such people culturally and politically would still have plenty of motivation to decry Western imperialism and the global economy of which they've largely been left out.

 

Again, I think everyone would love it if Saudi Arabia was held accountable for its human rights violations; I'd say the same thing about China, too. But I just don't believe that will have one iota of affect on ISIS and jihadism.  

 

As soon as the Saudi's or others reject Sharia law,  ISIS will dissociate with them and call those countries infidels.  It just won't work.

[TheLeviathan]

1. The Saudi's practice is what funded the splinter group of extremists in the first place.  The subsequent funding gave them a foothold to build on.  This virus started there and it started as a violent, old-school version of Islam.  That's the vehicle for it as well.

 

2. The systemic oppression of speech and education, in the name of religion, is not dissimilar to what was practiced for a long time in the Western world.  It's not an accident that many of the most violent, backwards countries are also the poorest and the least educated.  That's by design.  People accept that design in the name of Islam.  

 

The other issues are accidents.  They serve to further the narrative, but they aren't the vehicle for it.  As it has always been, religion (in any particular form) is often the most effective tool for oppression the world has ever known.  

[TheLeviathan]

I'd also push back on one other point.....if no one is denying Islam is inhumane and creating so much suffering and oppression......why deny it's central role in creating murderous extremists?

 

Why work so hard and do so much creative mental gymnastics to deny that?

 

[PseudoSABR]

Why work so hard and do so much creative mental gymnastics to deny that Western Imperialism has a central role in creating murderous extremists?

 

I'll say it again, Islam is the vehicle, the source of the hate, the reason for their targeting the West is something that is found outside of Islam.   You take away the vehicle of that hate, you still have the hate, which will inevitably find another vehicle, a different banner to rally under...

[TheLeviathan]

 

Why work so hard and do so much creative mental gymnastics to deny that Western Imperialism has a central role in creating murderous extremists?

 

I'll say it again, Islam is the vehicle, the source of the hate, the reason for their targeting the West is something that is found outside of Islam.   You take away the vehicle of that hate, you still have the hate, which will inevitably find another vehicle, a different banner to rally under...

 

Ooooh...progress!  You take away the vehicle and you take away some of the power and the cohesion of the hate.  Religion taps into really powerful emotions and develops much more commitment and passion than your average vehicle.  Even Nationalism pales in the face of it.  

 

You also might change the hate when you suddenly allow the population to speak free, educate all, etc.  There will be other helpful changes by attacking this issue too.  Yeah, they might find another banner, but unlikely one with the same kind of power, broad appeal, and ease of use for manipulation.  

Sure, Western Imperialism has helped lead to all sorts of problems.  It probably, largely, is responsible for racism in America too.  Doesn't mean I find much use in acknowledging that or making it the focus of my fix.  It doesn't help the problem.  How do I know?  Well, we could pull every soldier out of the Middle East, do daily food drops, build monuments to Islamic prophets, and build a new mosque on every corner.....and it won't matter.  Short of converting to Islam, none of it will matter.  Starting to see the real central factor yet?

[twinsnorth49]

People you're missing the point, Shariah law is Islamic law, it is Islam. There is no separation, it guides everything.

 

It is not like Christianity or either of its testaments.

[TheLeviathan]

 

People you're missing the point, Shariah law is Islamic law, it is Islam. There is no separation, it guides everything.

It is not like Christianity or either of its testaments.

 

Are you arguing it's some sort of monolithic thing that isn't interpreted differently by different sects?  Because that's sort of my point, whatever you want to call it, the practice need not be the way the wahhabists want it to be as evidenced by many sects that practice a much different form of it.

[twinsnorth49]

Are you arguing it's some sort of monolithic thing that isn't interpreted differently by different sects? Because that's sort of my point, whatever you want to call it, the practice need not be the way the wahhabists want it to be as evidenced by many sects that practice a much different form of it.

.

 

No I'm arguing it has more to do than just the acts of barbarism or inequality you're separating from it.

 

Shariah law is the guiding source of all Islam, from how they pray, live their daily lives, serve their communities, everything.

 

It isn't some separate thing that has to do with punishing people. Trying to fragment it makes no sense, it's all one thing.

[TheLeviathan]

 

.

No I'm arguing it has more to do than just the acts of barbarism or inequality you're separating from it.

Shariah law is the guiding source of all Islam, from how they pray, live their daily lives, serve their communities, everything.

It isn't some separate thing that has to do with punishing people. Trying to fragment it makes no sense, it's all one thing.

 

No, I agree, but I'm also not going to sit here and go through it piece by piece.  The parts that need to be re-interpreted, changed, or whatever are also Sharia Law for exactly the reasons you lay out.  So are the justifications used to keep women uneducated and a host of other oppressive social features.

 

Since these are also part of Sharia Law, how would you prefer I distinguish what needs to change in practice/interpretation?

[twinsnorth49]

No, I agree, but I'm also not going to sit here and go through it piece by piece. The parts that need to be re-interpreted, changed, or whatever are also Sharia Law for exactly the reasons you lay out. So are the justifications used to keep women uneducated and a host of other oppressive social features.

 

Since these are also part of Sharia Law, how would you prefer I distinguish what needs to change in practice/interpretation?

By focusing on the states that use those things based on their own interpretation for their own purpose.

 

As you said most of those practices don't exist for Muslims in the Western world. Islam was always intended to be interpreted based on current societal norms.

 

Extremists separate the things that serve their agenda, they bastardsise their faith by doing so. It's unspiritual.

[TheLeviathan]

I agree, but most of the states believe in some or many of those warped principles. So, yes, I'm using the term broadly but it also fits broadly.

[Badsmerf]

Is anyone denying the role we've played in creating this environment? I think our role is much less than you think though psuedo. The smaller the world has become, the easier it is for radicals to kill people. We've made bad decisions on policy.

 

However, look at it as guns being the vehicle for killing... Murderers will still want to murder. That doesn't stop you from wanting to do our best to limit that access. Try to do something to combat the known problem.

[twinsnorth49]

Extremists are beholden to a literalist ideology that has historically been rejected by the Muslim world. 

 

Allah said " but say not for any false thing that your tongue may put forth, this is unlawful and this is forbidden, so as to ascribe false things to Allah, For those who ascribe false things to Allah will never prosper.

 

Ignorance is probably the biggest issue facing Islam today, leaders in states that convince it's people they are only following what is laid out in the writings of the prophet, in the  name of Allah. They are not qualified to make those interpretations, they are false prophets and do not follow the traditional jurisdiction of implementing laws.

 

Unfortunately Muslims in those states do not  themselves possess the required knowledge of those aspects of their religion.

[TheLeviathan]

They don't know that.....because of their religion. It controls their education and goverents. The Pew research is pretty clear on both how pervasive it is by country and by region.

 

It all connects back to the same issue, not unlike Christianity hundreds of years ago.

[twinsnorth49]

 

They don't know that.....because of their religion. It controls their education and goverents. The Pew research is pretty clear on both how pervasive it is by country and by region.

It all connects back to the same issue, not unlike Christianity hundreds of years ago.

No, they don't know that because of their lack of education and oppression of the state. Islam doesn't control their education, the state does. If Islam controls ones education how does any Muslim person become educated?

 

In fact the religion preaches ignorance is grounds for not inserting oneself in any decision being made on Islamic law. What is pervasive by country and region is the way in which literal interpretations of Islamic law are being perpetrated by it's leaders, ones who lack the theological knowledge of how to properly make such decisions based on the writings of the prophet and in keeping with the current times.  

 

It's a fractured community, not religion. It's lack of a unifying moral and practical voice is a big problem. That doesn't necessarily suggest one person.

 

You cannot change Islam, nor is there a need to, as proven by the majority. You can only change those who corrupt it for their own purposes.

[TheLeviathan]

The state is not separated from the religion and the school curriculums are heavily saturated with religion.  There isn't a separation of powers, the state IS Islam.  Or the two are joined at the hip.  

Again, sadly, the majority is part of the problem. A few elites or those in power might be driving things, but the majority support these regressive and oppressive interpretations. And they support going further down the road to less education and freedom in exchange for more religion. And both the masses and the leaders do it in the name of Islam.

 

Women don't get educated in the name of Islam.  What we consider basic education is replaced with religious doctrines in the name of Islam.  

 

Again, this is not some fringe in the Middle East and Asia.  The Pew polls make that abundantly clear.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Short of converting to Islam, none of it will matter.  Starting to see the real central factor yet?

The real central factor? That kind of language is a lot like All lives matters, it just shuts down the conversations about something complex.  Especially when the only thing you offer to fix is a damn worldwide religion. 

 

Converting to Islam wouldn't change the reality on the ground either (I know this was just extreme rhetoric), just as changing the rules of Islam wouldn't stay the violence.  There's a real depravity, war, and despotism over a stretch of decades that generations of these people have had to deal with.  (And this does not even begin to address the violence at the hand of Muslim immigrants/western-citizens.)

 

What will change things is wealth.  Borders that allow discreet cultures to govern themselves.  American money and policy that stops funding the regime and militarization in Israel. The promotion of Palestinian State.  Allowing the profits from the oil resources to be propagated to the population and not to foreign companies or corrupt governments. 

 

Christianity didn't change itself, society changed, people changed.  Our wealth allowed us to stray from the comforts of religion.  Our economy took advantage of the advances of science. (And really it was secularism that shunned the KKK, racism, etc.; Christianity hardly led that fight.)  That said, the current Pope is a revelation (I know he doesn't speak for all religions, but more dudes like him could make me invest in my ethnic Catholic roots. (And as an aside, did the Pope's suggestion that Christianity owes homosexuals an apology stay the myriad "religious freedom" laws that allow discrimination; of course not, the advocates of such laws simply further distanced themselves from the dope-ass-Pope).

 

As the world becomes smaller through technology and social media, the distinctions between our disparate cultures become more pronounced, not lesser so.  There's a reason terrorism is burgeoning in the new millennium and didn't occur in the decades before that, or did so at far less frequency.   Islam didn't become a religion on 9-11. 

 

Individuals need hope in order to be motivated change.   You can say Islam should change until your blue in the face--reminds me of the old conservative adage, well people should just work hard--your normative truth, doesn't make achieving it any more possible.   The people that reside in whats left of Syria and Iraq have little incentive to not fall prey to ISIS, and decrying Islam doesn't make that more possible.

 

I agree with pressuring all regimes who deny human rights.  I'd start not with the regimes themselves, but by holding accountable American interests and corporations who profit from such regimes. Take away the incentive to work with those who make oppression.  

 

That Western-born Muslims, with citizenship in their host country, continue to carry out such acts, suggests to me that such people carry out atrocities not because they have been bred to do so by their religion, but that along the way of their life they became "radicalized" not because Islam is so compelling, but the hole the need to fill is so monstrously great.   I think such people are looking for any reason, religion or otherwise, to fill that hole with murder.  It's in part, demonstrated, why the Orlando and San Bernadino killings were rather personal as opposed to religiously symbolic. At first blush, this Nice killer, while ethnically Muslim, looks to have used jihad/ISIS/Islam as an excuse to murder nearly a 100 people.

 

My point is the issue is complex.  We need to examine every possible source, and we should never claim, AHA!, it is I who know that what the REAL SOURCE IS!  Sure, we should encourage Islam to change (really on its own merit outside of terrorism), but we also must acknowledge that our capacity to influence such (beyond Trump-like ideas) is severally limited.  Again, we must take every angle, and any avenue left unexplored is an abdication of our cause. 

 

There's plenty to be done on multiple fronts.   Personally, I think sourcing Islam as the cause will only make things worse in the short term, and without addressing the economic and political reality of how such Islamic regimes gained power and influence will ultimately fail in the long term.  

[TheLeviathan]

 

That Western-born Muslims, with citizenship in their host country, continue to carry out such acts, suggests to me that such people carry out atrocities not because they have been bred to do so by their religion, but that along the way of their life they became "radicalized" not because Islam is so compelling, but the hole the need to fill is so monstrously great.   I think such people are looking for any reason, religion or otherwise, to fill that hole with murder.  It's in part, demonstrated, why the Orlando and San Bernadino killings were rather personal as opposed to religiously symbolic. At first blush, this Nice killer, while ethnically Muslim, looks to have used jihad/ISIS/Islam as an excuse to murder nearly a 100 people.

 

So you're utterly hopeless on this?  I mean, seriously, read that paragraph,  Could you be trying any harder to call that thing that's quacking and waddling an elephant rather than a duck?

 

There is a lot more in your post that is head shaking (from Israel, from the apparent ignorance of this thing called the "reformation", to all sorts of other things) but you sort of lost me with that paragraph.  I get it, you're in your little ideological tribe and you've planted your roots deep.  I find that unfortunate, but oh well.

 

The rest of us will have to work on the problem while you keep trying to figure out why your elephant doesn't have a trunk.

[twinsnorth49]

Wanting Shariah Law doesn't equate to supporting oppressive or regressive interpretations. It only means they want the guiding source of their religion to rule all aspects of their life. This surprises people?

 

I find the poll makes a lot of assumptions about Shariah law, including the overriding belief it is mainly some kind of justice system that is administered only one way.

[TheLeviathan]

Again, change the practice/interpretation.

 

It's funny to keep hearing this blamed on poverty and education. Take a wild guess what two of the positive consequences of the Christian reformation were?

 

Islam is basically where Christianity was 1000 years ago from suppression of rights, women being treated as property, global terror (just called it crusades instead of jihad), economic oppression, direct influence in government, and the list goes on.

 

When the religious strong hold fragmented and reform was forced....progress happened over time. Quit looking at the symptoms and look at the virus.

[PseudoSABR]

 

The rest of us will have to work on the problem while you keep trying to figure out why your elephant doesn't have a trunk.

You go change that religion, Levi.  Because everyone clearly agrees with you on this.

[TheLeviathan]

Global peace, human rights, and basic decency took a huge step forward the last time we fought to change a religion and won. I'm happy to be on that side again. If you're not, get the hell out of the way and let the rest of us work for a better world.

[Squirrel]

A wee bit of a moderator note, but also just from me as me.

 

Okay ... this is turning into a smug, 'I'm right' exchange. And perhaps this is more why change is difficult. Perhaps if we untrench ourselves a bit here and maybe turn the tables and take an opposite point of view and try and argue that and see what we learn.

 

I get how we all feel about our points of view and believe 100% we're right ... I am truly, equally as guilty in that ... but we need to remove that confidence when discussing these very, very difficult issues during difficult times.

[TheLeviathan]

I won't apologize for being on the side of a net win for humanity. I also won't apologize for being harsh with those that arent. We play enough "can't we both be right" games.

 

That's easy for us to do. We aren't feminists, reformers, kurds, moderates, or children in a region that brutalizes them all to keep the status quo.

 

If you can't get behind that I don't apologize for telling you that you're just plain wrong. Hurt feelings seem like a petty thing compared to the topic.