Castile shooting, police violence, race, etc side discussion

[Mike Sixel]

To be clear, I think protesters should be arrested fort blocking roads. That's part of the price of freedom and change. But I also think that is the only way to get the attention of most lazy Americans.

[Craig Arko]

 

To be clear, I think protesters should be arrested fort blocking roads. That's part of the price of freedom and change. But I also think that is the only way to get the attention of most lazy Americans.

I guess the question is; will that attention be beneficial or detrimental? I'm not really sure at all.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Well Rosa Parks can sit in the front of the bus now at least.

 

Something about who can use which schools and which water fountains too if I remember right.

 

Yup. Not to mention Egypt, or other parts of the world.....or women's suffrage....

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Blocking interstates is problematic, but that doesn't mean we get to absolve ourselves from trying to fix the problems with policing or the criminal justice system or all of the above. 

 

Also, I am very confident that if an ambulance with its sirens on was determined to travel I-94 during the protests last Saturday night, that the protesters would have made way for it, getting through the congestion would have been difficult but possible as it always is with the cooperation of motorists, and the police would have also let it through their blockades. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I guess the question is; will that attention be beneficial or detrimental? I'm not really sure at all.

When the default position of the average American is ignorance, willful or otherwise, I don't think it matters.

 

As I said earlier, when you're attempting to enact change a pissed off person nets the same result as an idle person.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Well Rosa Parks can sit in the front of the bus now at least.

 

Something about who can use which schools and which water fountains too if I remember right.

 

The protests accomplished that?  

 

Boycotts were far more effective, not protests.  

 

But please, correct me if I'm wrong, were small groups of 90 people sitting on interstates the reason why women's suffrage and civil rights were achieved?  Or did people put their efforts into politics, voting, boycotts, and a host of more effective practices than sitting like a lump on a road?

[TheLeviathan]

 

When the default position of the average American is ignorance, willful or otherwise, I don't think it matters.

 

As I said earlier, when you're attempting to enact change a pissed off person nets the same result as an idle person.

 

I'd argue the second point.  A pissed off person who doesn't agree with you is a net loss compared to an idle person.

 

Also, to cure whatever "ignorance" you are going for, your message needs to be what shines brightest, not your tactic.  If it's your tactic that gets the most attention than you are failing to accomplish what your aim is.

[twinsnorth49]

 

I don't think protests are effective in general. These gain no traction, at least in the way they aim. Might be lots of negative traction.

I think that's true if you take each one in isolation but taken together and over a long enough period of time, symbolic protests can change public conciousness  which ultimately can change political direction.

 

These protests are not instrumental ones, at least not yet. They are still just trying to resonate on a broader level so that someday change becomes necessary. 

 

One looks no further than Gandhi or Dr, King to know that on a broader level, protests can be effective.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

But race *is* a large component of the problem. If we ignore race, how do we actually begin to resolve this specific problem?

 

I don't view BLM as eschewing others' problems, I view it as a cry for help from a downtrodden community. While I haven't seen you use the #AllLivesMatter hashtag, that's a bigger problem than the #BlackLivesMatter hash.

 

Why? Because ALM doesn't actually stand for anything. It's a dismissal of peoples' voices and a vote for the status quo. "Nothing to see here. Move along, move along. Oh, and shut up, blackie."

 

So, whether you actually agree with BLM or not, it's best to stay the hell away from ALM and any terminology of that kind. It doesn't actually stand for anything, it only stands in protest. If you want real division, that's how you get it. ALM is not only about ignoring the woes of others, it's about shouting down their ideas. It's pretty much the worst. Whether you agree with BLM or not, it's hard to deny ALM is a hell of a lot worse.

 

In a nutshell, All Lives Matter is the GOP and military veterans.

 

"Should we post a meme thanking our vets twice a year? Should we bathe in the red, white, and blue whenever possible? Should we sing songs about our vets?"

"YES!"

"Should we fund healthcare improvements, treatment, and aid for vets in need?"

"HELL NO!"

 

No ideas, only platitudes.

"All lives matter."

 

Of course they do. And if you really believe it, do something about it or STFU.

 

Not speaking to you specifically, diehard, just pointing out how problematic it is to distract and shout over someone with ideas when you have no plan whatsoever or intent to actually solve the problem. You may have ideas how to fix the problem, I have no idea, I'm only speaking in generalities.

 

Someone said it really well earlier.  LATENT RACISM is a problem.  However, I don't think racism is the problem.  A lack of a professional police force IS an even bigger problem.  Both of these can exist from people who are staunchly against racism, but the end results can certainly look racist.   Police don't simply pull over someone for that broken tail light simply b/c they are black.  They do it b/c they are doing their jobs, looking for suspects, etc.  Like it or not, that's what they are asked to do. 

 

We can discuss whether this is more often than not a simple run around the 4th amendment (I think it is), but the issue at hand is that when call this racism, you start offending a lot of people who aren't racist.  Case in point, this very discussion I've had with my sister.  Cops get called racist over this stuff all the time.  Most of these cops are hardly racist.  They do have a job to do though, and like it or not they are following the rules that they have been given.  They need to find a bad guy, and all they have is a description.  Framing this type of stuff in terms of race immediately turns many of the very people off who would be sympathetic to that cause.  I'd further argue that it really misses the point.  You don't seem media reports about the white criminals who die in similar fashion at the hands of white (or even black) cops.  Why is that?  They exist.  The problem is that these numbers likely correlate better to poverty rates than they do ethnic rates.   

 

Instead of tackling the law and how it leads to latent racism though, the debate gets charged with racial terminology that quite frankly is nothing but more latent racism.  You certainly won't get a lot of people to the table on issues of professional expectations within the force when you frame it in terms of racism.  I'd argue this is the root of a lot of that violence in that there are cops (and sadly, listening to my sister's stories I know of a few) who have absolutely no business being cops due to their internal makeup.  These are folks who demand respect when they refuse to behave in a respectful manner and are (to put it nicely) simply the childhood bullies who are all grown up and simply need someone else to beat on.  They have the same issues with white people as they do with black people.  The worst part is that they work in a system that offers little in terms of accountability, allows for retaliation, and in general gives them the benefit of the doubt.  You want to change the system, you need to change these things.  You need to be able to fire the bad apples.  You need to be able to hold unprofessional behavior accountable.  You need to set expectations with the force that says that just because someone spits on you or gives you the bird doesn't entitle you to escalate (especially since escalation usually breeds more escalation).  For all the talk about ALM not standing for something, BLM doesn't touch this problem, even though this has more to do with the plight of blacks at the hands of the police than anything else. 

 

Just because it's the folks over on the red side of the aisle (which I am not as you know) who recognize this issue doesn't make their point any less valid.  This is a problem that needs to be solved, but its root cause isn't racism.  Framing it in terms of race won't help. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

I think that's true if you take each one in isolation but taken together and over a long enough period of time, symbolic protests can change public conciousness  which ultimately can change political direction.

 

These protests are not instrumental ones, at least not yet. They are still just trying to resonate on a broader level so that someday change becomes necessary. 

 

One looks no further than Gandhi or Dr, King to know that on a broader level, protests can be effective.

 

But Dr. King and Gandhi were doing more than just sitting or marching in roads.  

 

I don't disagree that protests, as a small part of a larger effort, cna have some effect, but I'd put them towards the bottom of hte list of effective ways to get your point across or create change.

[twinsnorth49]

 

The protests accomplished that?  

 

Boycotts were far more effective, not protests.  

 

But please, correct me if I'm wrong, were small groups of 90 people sitting on interstates the reason why women's suffrage and civil rights were achieved?  Or did people put their efforts into politics, voting, boycotts, and a host of more effective practices than sitting like a lump on a road?

The were all part of the broader context imo. I don't think it's fair to minimize them based on some expected level of success on an individual level. Rosa Parks drew attention, it's a vital part of the process.

[Mike Sixel]

 

But Dr. King and Gandhi were doing more than just sitting or marching in roads.  

 

I don't disagree that protests, as a small part of a larger effort, cna have some effect, but I'd put them towards the bottom of hte list of effective ways to get your point across or create change.

 

And BLM isn't? Really? They aren't meeting with politicians? they aren't trying to get candidates elected? They aren't meeting with the police (where police will)?

 

That's just not true......they are doing all of those things.

 

People that are comfortable don't change for the most part. Until you make them uncomfortable, why would they?

[twinsnorth49]

 

But Dr. King and Gandhi were doing more than just sitting or marching in roads.  

 

I don't disagree that protests, as a small part of a larger effort, cna have some effect, but I'd put them towards the bottom of hte list of effective ways to get your point across or create change.

Did anyone know that in the beginning? History tells us that now. In the beginning was Gandhi doing anything  more than marching down a road to pick up some salt? At the time the end result could have been viewed as a colossal failure, in isolation. But it had greater significance and created attention that allowed for a broader goal to be accomplished.

 

 

[TheLeviathan]

If we're going to compare this to Rosa Parks, then the parallel is Castille's death.  That's what truly sparks attention.  

 

Are these highway sit-ins informing someone that somehow missed that it happened?  That seems to be the argument some of you are making.  If it's not that, then what is the effect of these?

 

From my vantage point, the effect most evident is that it is casting a lot of neutral people into a "frustrated" stance with BLM and anyone else protesting for the same cause.

[TheLeviathan]

 

And BLM isn't? Really? They aren't meeting with politicians? they aren't trying to get candidates elected? They aren't meeting with the police (where police will)?

 

That's just not true......they are doing all of those things.

 

People that are comfortable don't change for the most part. Until you make them uncomfortable, why would they?

 

Not all forms of "uncomfortable" effect change.  You have to make them uncomfortable with what is happening, not with your tactics for opposing it.

 

Basically, you seem to be arguing that you think it's sound strategy to annoy people into changing things and hoping that the annoyed reaction delivers your desired result.  I don't find that reasoning very compelling.

[Craig Arko]

"We cannot lose. We cannot."

 

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

You know, it's pointless having a discussion with you if you're going to resort to name calling. If you don't want me to categorize you alongside conservative republicans, then don't call me arrogant. I'm sorry I came off that way.

 

You keep focusing on the fact that peoples' feelings are hurt when we talk about the number of innocent black lives that are ruthlessly taken. I would like respectfully ask you to pause and think about the feelings that were hurt when these black lives were passed aside as unimportant while slain police never failed to draw media attention. I'm not saying that attention was undeserved. I'm not minimizing the atrocity of the Dallas shooting. All I'm saying is black lives matter. I won't apologize.

 

I'll accept that apology and offer one of my own.  But if you don't that response, then don't start telling people what they do and do not understand.  For my part, I apologize, so let's drop this part of it.

 

On to your second point.  No one is passing aside black lives.  No one is saying that black lives don't matter. My point is that the problem isn't racist at all.  There's plenty of whites who have died at the hands of law enforcement in similar fashion.  Here's a sad story of one of them.   It doesn't get the media attention, but it doesn't make it any less true.  Framing it in racial terms ignores this issue and forces unnecessary standards on the police who already have enough to do as it is... and it misses the problem altogether.

 

The bigger issue here goes back to professional behavior within a police force.  It is a job that is inherently contentious and people who lack conflict resolution skills have only one means to resolve it.  That lack of professionalism by the way is race agnostic.  My sister has seen the bad of that internally as sexual harassment is a common form of retaliation.   This has nothing to do with people's feelings getting hurt.  It has everything to do with the fact that problem isn't racism, and framing it as such pretty much ends the conversation.  Someone like my sister is going to get turned off pretty quick to a framed discussion around racism.  She isn't a racist and yet gets called one every day.  You start talking about the real problem (professionalism), you get people like that listening. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I'd argue the second point.  A pissed off person who doesn't agree with you is a net loss compared to an idle person.

 

Also, to cure whatever "ignorance" you are going for, your message needs to be what shines brightest, not your tactic.  If it's your tactic that gets the most attention than you are failing to accomplish what your aim is.

That's a fair point but I don't know what else the community can do. It's not like this problem is new and it's not like it hasn't been known to exist for decades.

 

I believe there's a net gain found in awareness. Some will turn against you but many will turn toward you... And without awareness, something the black community has failed to get for years, nothing changes.

 

And Castile's death would have been a footnote without the past two years of protests. How do we know this? Because there are literally thousands of dead black men over the past few decades and we've never seen anything approaching this kind of media traction over police brutality... With one *very* notable exception: Rodney King.

 

What followed the trial of King's murderers? The most violent and destructive riot of the past 40 years.

 

What followed those riots? A drastic overhaul of the LAPD and its tactics.

 

Awareness counts and without all that turmoil to keep King in the news, it's possible, probably even likely, nothing significant changes with the LAPD.

[twinsnorth49]

 

Someone said it really well earlier.  LATENT RACISM is a problem.  However, I don't think racism is the problem.  A lack of a professional police force IS an even bigger problem.  Both of these can exist from people who are staunchly against racism, but the end results can certainly look racist.   Police don't simply pull over someone for that broken tail light simply b/c they are black.  They do it b/c they are doing their jobs, looking for suspects, etc.  Like it or not, that's what they are asked to do. 

 

We can discuss whether this is more often than not a simple run around the 4th amendment (I think it is), but the issue at hand is that when call this racism, you start offending a lot of people who aren't racist.  Case in point, this very discussion I've had with my sister.  Cops get called racist over this stuff all the time.  Most of these cops are hardly racist.  They do have a job to do though, and like it or not they are following the rules that they have been given.  They need to find a bad guy, and all they have is a description.  Framing this type of stuff in terms of race immediately turns many of the very people off who would be sympathetic to that cause.  I'd further argue that it really misses the point.  You don't seem media reports about the white criminals who die in similar fashion at the hands of white (or even black) cops.  Why is that?  They exist.  The problem is that these numbers likely correlate better to poverty rates than they do ethnic rates.   

 

Instead of tackling the law and how it leads to latent racism though, the debate gets charged with racial terminology that quite frankly is nothing but more latent racism.  You certainly won't get a lot of people to the table on issues of professional expectations within the force when you frame it in terms of racism.  I'd argue this is the root of a lot of that violence in that there are cops (and sadly, listening to my sister's stories I know of a few) who have absolutely no business being cops due to their internal makeup.  These are folks who demand respect when they refuse to behave in a respectful manner and are (to put it nicely) simply the childhood bullies who are all grown up and simply need someone else to beat on.  They have the same issues with white people as they do with black people.  The worst part is that they work in a system that offers little in terms of accountability, allows for retaliation, and in general gives them the benefit of the doubt.  You want to change the system, you need to change these things.  You need to be able to fire the bad apples.  You need to be able to hold unprofessional behavior accountable.  You need to set expectations with the force that says that just because someone spits on you or gives you the bird doesn't entitle you to escalate (especially since escalation usually breeds more escalation).  For all the talk about ALM not standing for something, BLM doesn't touch this problem, even though this has more to do with the plight of blacks at the hands of the police than anything else. 

 

Just because it's the folks over on the red side of the aisle (which I am not as you know) who recognize this issue doesn't make their point any less valid.  This is a problem that needs to be solved, but its root cause isn't racism.  Framing it in terms of race won't help. 

Apparently it can happen, I posted this earlier but I'll put it here again in relation to your statement.

 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/afn-meeting-niagara-falls-1.3674114

 

 

Racism is part of the issue, no it's not the only issue, taken in a broader social context it's not nearly the biggest one, but it's one that needs to be dealt with and it's the one a lot of people want addressed sooner than later.

[ashbury]

Never heard of k©atty corner. What is that?

Diagonally across. As in, if you're outside the Starbucks on the northwest corner of the intersection, and you want to get instead to the Starbucks on the southeast corner, you can save a little time by going catty-corner.

[TheLeviathan]

 

That's a fair point but I don't know what else the community can do. It's not like this problem is new and it's not like it hasn't been known to exist for decades.

 

I believe there's a net gain found in awareness. Some will turn against you but many will turn toward you... And without awareness, something the black community has failed to get for years, nothing changes.

 

And Castile's death would have been a footnote without the past two years of protests. How do we know this? Because there are literally thousands of dead black men over the past few decades and we've never seen anything approaching this kind of media traction over police brutality... With one *very* notable exception: Rodney King.

 

What followed the trial of King's murderers? The most violent and destructive riot of the past 40 years.

 

What followed those riots? A drastic overhaul of the LAPD and its tactics.

 

Awareness counts and without all that turmoil to keep King in the news, it's possible, probably even likely, nothing significant changes with the LAPD.

 

There's a lot to unpack here that you blurred together.  To the first thing - if your tactic isn't working, pick a new tactic.  Laying in the road, so far as I know, is not the only tactic available.

 

I'll ask again - what "awareness" are you creating that wasn't already created by Castille's death, the subsequent events in Dallas, and non-stop media coverage?  This isn't 1960, awareness is pretty easy to gain.

 

What you are comparing these to are not in the same ballpark.  This isn't thousands of people demonstrating, it's a small bunch trying to overcome their lack of numbers with degree of annoyance in tactics.  I don't think it works that way and it certainly doesn't seem to be working.

[nicksaviking]

 

The protests accomplished that?  

 

Boycotts were far more effective, not protests.  

 

But please, correct me if I'm wrong, were small groups of 90 people sitting on interstates the reason why women's suffrage and civil rights were achieved?  Or did people put their efforts into politics, voting, boycotts, and a host of more effective practices than sitting like a lump on a road?

 

Well the picture is still famous today:

 

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/kummwn/picture7402148/ALTERNATES/FREE_640/Selma%20march%202.jpg

 

Looks to me like Selma was having a few traffic issues that day too.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Not all forms of "uncomfortable" effect change.  You have to make them uncomfortable with what is happening, not with your tactics for opposing it.

 

Basically, you seem to be arguing that you think it's sound strategy to annoy people into changing things and hoping that the annoyed reaction delivers your desired result.  I don't find that reasoning very compelling.

 

Well, nothing else was working. Sitting around talking to the police....where they would...not working. Talking to politicians, who are gerrymandering the crap out of the county to actively weaken your message? not working......

 

what, exactly, would you have people actually do that will, you know, make a difference?

 

And, you are actually arguing that political protest makes no difference in the world? I just want to get that one answered....you believe that protests make no difference?

[TheLeviathan]

 

Well the picture is still famous today:

 

Looks to me like Selma was having a few traffic issues that day too.

 

Yes, there was a march in Selma.  There was also a direct, purposeful reason for it.

 

They wanted to show how determined they were to vote by marching over 50 miles to demonstrate their commitment.  They did not lay in the road chanting to annoy people into changing.

 

Are the differences not stark?  That's the difference between a meaningful protest and one that basically has the same effect as a hashtag.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I'll accept that apology and offer one of my own.  But if you don't that response, then don't start telling people what they do and do not understand.  For my part, I apologize, so let's drop this part of it.

 

On to your second point.  No one is passing aside black lives.  No one is saying that black lives don't matter. My point is that the problem isn't racist at all.  There's plenty of whites who have died at the hands of law enforcement in similar fashion.  Here's a sad story of one of them.   It doesn't get the media attention, but it doesn't make it any less true.  Framing it in racial terms ignores this issue and forces unnecessary standards on the police who already have enough to do as it is... and it misses the problem altogether.

 

The bigger issue here goes back to professional behavior within a police force.  It is a job that is inherently contentious and people who lack conflict resolution skills have only one means to resolve it.  That lack of professionalism by the way is race agnostic.  My sister has seen the bad of that internally as sexual harassment is a common form of retaliation.   This has nothing to do with people's feelings getting hurt.  It has everything to do with the fact that problem isn't racism, and framing it as such pretty much ends the conversation.  Someone like my sister is going to get turned off pretty quick to a framed discussion around racism.  She isn't a racist and yet gets called one every day.  You start talking about the real problem (professionalism), you get people like that listening. 

 

"it happens to white people too" isn't actually a compelling argument in the face of facts and statistics that point out it happens at a MUCH HIGHER rate to non-whites than whites.

 

Are you actually arguing there is no systemic racism in the US?

[formerly33]

 

On to your second point.  No one is passing aside black lives.  No one is saying that black lives don't matter. My point is that the problem isn't racist at all.  There's plenty of whites who have died at the hands of law enforcement in similar fashion.  Here's a sad story of one of them.   It doesn't get the media attention, but it doesn't make it any less true.  Framing it in racial terms ignores this issue and forces unnecessary standards on the police who already have enough to do as it is... and it misses the problem altogether.

 

The bigger issue here goes back to professional behavior within a police force.  It is a job that is inherently contentious and people who lack conflict resolution skills have only one means to resolve it.  That lack of professionalism by the way is race agnostic.  My sister has seen the bad of that internally as sexual harassment is a common form of retaliation.   This has nothing to do with people's feelings getting hurt.  It has everything to do with the fact that problem isn't racism, and framing it as such pretty much ends the conversation.  Someone like my sister is going to get turned off pretty quick to a framed discussion around racism.  She isn't a racist and yet gets called one every day.  You start talking about the real problem (professionalism), you get people like that listening. 

But people are passing aside black lives. Yes, "all lives matter" sounds wonderful - I don't disagree with that. But the phrase has antagonistic origins and insinuates that in this day in age, all lives are treated as if they do matter without a single exception to the rule. That simply isn't true.

 

You are right; it's stupid, pointless, and even harmful to assume all cops are racist. Racism, however, does exist, and the police force isn't immune. I've heard of enough cases of police brutality in which blatant racism played a key roll to know this. To me, it seems stupid, pointless, and harmful to assume it's not a problem.

 

It may be hurtful to a certain segment of the white population to hear the phrase "black lives matter." Guess what - it's hurtful to another segment of the population to hear that the only (ONLY) issue here is police brutality.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/09/09/you-really-can-get-pulled-over-for-driving-while-black-federal-statistics-show/

 

We all agree there is a problem. You can focus on police brutality. Or you can focus on police brutality directed towards black people. Or you can focus on lack of professionalism in the police force. Or you can focus on lack of professionalism in the police force directed towards people of different ethnic groups.

[TheLeviathan]

 

what, exactly, would you have people actually do that will, you know, make a difference?

 

And, you are actually arguing that political protest makes no difference in the world? I just want to get that one answered....you believe that protests make no difference?

 

I believe protests, like hastags, are ineffectual for the most part. 

 

What should people do?  Well, getting out and voting would seem to me to be at the top of the list.  Boycotts have had a much better track record of success as well.  Do more on the organization end of things.

 

This?  This is the same BS thinking that makes people believe adding a hashtag on Twitter is changing the world.  It's not.  It's empty.  I think Psuedo said it best earlier - it's grandstanding and righteousness.  Not strategy.

[twinsnorth49]

Diagonally across. As in, if you're outside the Starbucks on the northwest corner of the intersection, and you want to get instead to the Starbucks on the southeast corner, you can save a little time by going catty-corner.

Uh, I think you mean "kitty corner" pal.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I believe protests, like hastags, are ineffectual for the most part. 

 

What should people do?  Well, getting out and voting would seem to me to be at the top of the list.  Boycotts have had a much better track record of success as well.

 

In gerrymanded states, where systemic racism is real, that's going to change things? 

 

Who do you boycott, if the police are the issue? Are you suggesting they boycott helping the police? that's not working either. 

[ashbury]

Racism is part of the issue, no it's not the only issue, taken in a broader social context it's not nearly the biggest one, but it's one that needs to be dealt with and it's the one a lot of people want addressed sooner than later.

With regard to the issue that this thread is about, fear looks to me like the core problem. Cops fear for their lives all the time (but particularly during encounters with citizens), black citizens fear for their lives in police encounters. White folks who aren't in law enforcement haven't been aware of this so much.

 

Racism is part of the cycle of fear - a proximate cause but also an outcome when things continue to go badly. It might be we need all sides to focus a bit more on the fear factor (and not the TV show by that name).