GOT season six (spoilers galore)

[Mike Sixel]

 

Compared to the source material the show has put a giant spotlight on the White Walkers.  The books opened with them and then has put virtually no effort into further unveiling their role in the series.  Or anything about them.  Or even having encounters with them.

 

They've basically been an afterthought for about 4-5,000 pages.

 

Oh, I realize that.......the books have, imo, underused a great villain.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Oh, I realize that.......the books have, imo, underused a great villain.

 

Yeah, I think the show realized that but didn't want to give too much away.  I really think a lot of the pacing problems of this season are due to the fact that the show producers planned on having Winds of Winter available to help them and then just had to wing things.  And they haven't done the best job of it.

 

But I agree, more from them is a good thing.

[jimmer]

 

 I have a hard time believing it was simply a technical issue with screen time. Wouldn't take much to plug him into a quick shot just to confirm his whereabouts. From what the audience knows, Ghost was locked up when Jon was murdered, but since then ??? We haven't seen him once I believe.

Well, it's what the director said when he was asked where Ghost was during the battle.

 

We've also seen ghost since Jon's murder, we've seen him after he came back to life.

[jimmer]

For all the complaints about this show, they have done a fantastic job taking a ton of material and streamlining it for the show.  If they followed everything to do with the book it would take 30+ years and no one would care about most of the middle years. Yes, they've had to cut some things and they've changed some things, but it's still a great story.  I've really only been bothered by one plot change.

 

It's one of the best shows of all time and easily the best of it genre.

[Brock Beauchamp]

For all the complaints about this show, they have done a fantastic job taking a ton of material and streamlining it for the show. If they followed everything to do with the book it would take 30+ years and no one would care about most of the middle years. Yes, they've had to cut some things and they've changed some things, but it's still a great story. I've really only been bothered by one plot change.

 

It's one of the best shows of all time and easily the best of it genre.

The show is miles better than the novels, no doubt about it.

[TheLeviathan]

 

For all the complaints about this show, they have done a fantastic job taking a ton of material and streamlining it for the show.  If they followed everything to do with the book it would take 30+ years and no one would care about most of the middle years. Yes, they've had to cut some things and they've changed some things, but it's still a great story.  I've really only been bothered by one plot change.

 

It's one of the best shows of all time and easily the best of it genre.

 

Oh I totally agree, I love the books but their problems are much, much worse than any mistakes the show has made.

 

The show is a milestone in taking fantasy novels and realizing them.  It should open the door to a host of other shows in the future.  It's deserved every accolade. 

[gunnarthor]

 

Oh, I realize that.......the books have, imo, underused a great villain.

They'll show up and be the big bad at the end.  I kind of like the slow development of them (and Euron) while other things are developing.  It's an interesting way to develop the story. 

[kydoty]

In loving memory...

 

http://i.imgur.com/QCvuA0u.gif

[kydoty]

And I have no doubt that Littlefinger will try to become Warden of the North, either through marriage to Sansa or conquest if he has to.  Why?  Because Littlefinger does nothing for free. 

[jimmer]

 

And I have no doubt that Littlefinger will try to become Warden of the North, either through marriage to Sansa or conquest if he has to.  Why?  Because Littlefinger does nothing for free. 

Littlefinger started this whole thing and basically controls the strongest army.  If he somehow becomes Warden of the North, he'll basically control 2 of the 7 kingdoms.

[TheLeviathan]

The preview definitely hinted at what I suggested earlier - he has genuine affection for Sansa, but he's also playing his game.  The two things work together in his eyes.

 

The question is, did he burn that bridge too badly?

[Brock Beauchamp]

They'll show up and be the big bad at the end. I kind of like the slow development of them (and Euron) while other things are developing. It's an interesting way to develop the story.

I mean, that'd be fine if they were actually developing. In ~4,500 pages of work (excluding the prologue), the White Walkers have consumed less than 50 pages and that's being generous.

 

That's not development, that's ignoring them entirely.

[Mike Sixel]

For all the complaints about this show, they have done a fantastic job taking a ton of material and streamlining it for the show.  If they followed everything to do with the book it would take 30+ years and no one would care about most of the middle years. Yes, they've had to cut some things and they've changed some things, but it's still a great story.  I've really only been bothered by one plot change.

 

It's one of the best shows of all time and easily the best of it genre.

Agree with all of this. I think my expectations were raised too high.

[kydoty]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0dA9eUP85s

[gunnarthor]

 

I mean, that'd be fine if they were actually developing. In ~4,500 pages of work (excluding the prologue), the White Walkers have consumed less than 50 pages and that's being generous.

That's not development, that's ignoring them entirely.

Well, true.  But we've also heard a lot of ancient stories from a variety of stories on what the others might (or might not) be.  People have talked about them in round about ways.  So, while they haven't made many appearances, we've read about the Night's King (his bride) and the Long Night, how dragon glass kills them, and how they've ridden animals into battle (I wonder if they have a dragon, too?).  

[Mike Sixel]

 

Well, true.  But we've also heard a lot of ancient stories from a variety of stories on what the others might (or might not) be.  People have talked about them in round about ways.  So, while they haven't made many appearances, we've read about the Night's King (his bride) and the Long Night, how dragon glass kills them, and how they've ridden animals into battle (I wonder if they have a dragon, too?).  

 

An undead dragon that breathes ice.......I kind of hope not. I would like the story to remain about the characters, not become a D&D game that levels up and the DM has to keep piling more cool stuff on to make it challenging......which I can't believe I just typed, frankly. The world is sorely lacking in good high magic fantasy.

[TheLeviathan]

At some point you need to do more than have old ladies tell stories about your big villain. Showing Hardhome (an event the books glossed over) was brilliant. We do need to know the enemy, not just have them show up largely out of the blue.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

An undead dragon that breathes ice.......I kind of hope not. I would like the story to remain about the characters, not become a D&D game that levels up and the DM has to keep piling more cool stuff on to make it challenging......which I can't believe I just typed, frankly. The world is sorely lacking in good high magic fantasy.

I'd be disappointed if they had ice dragons but I'll also be disappointed if they don't have something cool hiding beyond the wall.

 

The final battle is going to have to turn the volume to 11 because we've seen battles get bigger, more complicated, and more spectacular in the eight season lead-up to the final showdown.

 

But dragons would be kind of dumb. Dunno if the white walkers could have giants, golems, or whatever but they need to have something that makes for a visually spectacular battle.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

At some point you need to do more than have old ladies tell stories about your big villain. Showing Hardhome (an event the books glossed over) was brilliant. We do need to know the enemy, not just have them show up largely out of the blue.

Yeah, exactly. To be honest, I stopped giving a **** about the white walkers in the novels because they were nothing more than "SCARY BAD GUYS RUN AWAY OH NOES" material that appeared no more than twice in the series. They were bogeymen, not legitimate villains.

 

All that changed in the show with Hardhome, Bran's interactions under the tree, and just showing the white walkers on-screen.

 

The series has handled them quite well, in my opinion. The show runners haven't revealed their hand (we still know virtually nothing about the white walkers other than how they were created thousands of years ago) but they've shown us enough to be legitimately scared of them and build them up in our imaginations (mainly due to Hardhome). We've also seen enough of them where we want to know more because they're an enigmatic entity from the beyond that teases us with visuals but little information.

 

It's a fine line to walk; the books ignored the white walkers too often and I stopped caring... But show too much and the mystery is gone. The show has done a fine job of handling that balancing act.

[TheLeviathan]

That's the key - tease us but don't let us forget about them.  Too often the book was on the wrong side of that while the show has built up the menace slowly.  

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

That's the key - tease us but don't let us forget about them.  Too often the book was on the wrong side of that while the show has built up the menace slowly.  

Also, by showing us teasers at Hardhome and the great tree, the show is feeding us a timeline of events that explain why the white walkers remain north of the wall. The king is busy dealing with Bran in the far north, which postpones any kind of southern attack.

 

I spent several thousand pages of the books asking myself "what the **** are they waiting for, anyway?" It seemed a bit contrived that the white walkers didn't attack while the south was raging civil war. The show explained some of that away with the Bran storyline (and Hardhome, giving us clues that the walkers were busy cleaning up the free folk still north of the wall).

[Mike Sixel]

Agreed, but still hard to understand what Bran will do, other than warg into a dragon. Which, I guess I would want to prevent, if I was them. Seems like a lot of time has passed since Hardhome, though.

[TheLeviathan]

Good point, the Fist of the First Men happened like 5-6 years ago in the books and they haven't been heard from since other than a throw-away paragraph.  

 

I've long thought that they have been forgotten as GRRM has struggled to figure out the rest of his storylines.  He's forgotten them enough that it's easy to forget them entirely, but it's a huge mistake.  

[Brock Beauchamp]

Agreed, but still hard to understand what Bran will do, other than warg into a dragon. Which, I guess I would want to prevent, if I was them. Seems like a lot of time has passed since Hardhome, though.

Yeah, I don't really know where the Bran story is going but I consider that a plus, really. It's interesting enough that I want to see more but vague enough where it can go almost anywhere.

 

Hardhome happened awhile ago but actually having the white walker king pursuing Bran brings light to two questions: Bran is a real threat to the walkers and why the king isn't attacking the south.

[Mike Sixel]

Or, they are killing time like with Arya.....I hope not.....and I think not.

 

I don't know, a fleet of ships can sail from continent to continent, making a long stop on the way, and the WW can't find and get to Bran? The whole timeline seems messed up, story to story, at least to me.

 

I do also consider it a plus that we don't know what Bran can do, or the WWs can do, I agree. More vague hints would be good, imo. I don't need the WW every week, but a bit more would be nice.

 

Is Dorne pretty much just not relevant now? It could be such an interesting story.....

[Brock Beauchamp]

I feel the opposite about Dorne. I think it's the worst currently running story now that the Iron Islands have picked up a bit.

 

Though Dorne easily could be swapped with the Iron Islands storyline.

 

But they both suffered from the same problem, really. Isolated storylines full of characters I had no interest in learning about because they seemed one dimensional and didn't meaningfully interact with those I did care about. I lost interest in Dorne the moment they stopped interacting with King's Landing and the Mountain killed the prince.

 

It's kinda like the worst parts of a Victor Hugo novel. Sure, the convent in Les Miserables plays a part in the storyline but I didn't need a 90 page preface about the convent before it's tied into the story. By the end of 90 pages, I wanted to watch the convent burn just so *something* would happen. It's hard to reverse course and get the reader back on your side after you've pissed them off.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Or, they are killing time like with Arya.....I hope not.....and I think not.

 

I don't know, a fleet of ships can sail from continent to continent, making a long stop on the way, and the WW can't find and get to Bran? The whole timeline seems messed up, story to story, at least to me.

 

I do also consider it a plus that we don't know what Bran can do, or the WWs can do, I agree. More vague hints would be good, imo. I don't need the WW every week, but a bit more would be nice.

 

Is Dorne pretty much just not relevant now? It could be such an interesting story.....

 

The time taken to travel and do that sort of thing is absolutely messed up.  As GRRM let his story spiral out of his control, it caused a ripple effect.  The show, this season, has all but used teleporters.  They've thrown time out the window.  (Which, I think, has caused some of the issues.  Showing people slowly traveling down the road doesn't make for good television, but you can't just warp people around)

 

But like I said, the battle with the Night's Watch and the Others happened here.  That was two books and several years ago.  Look at the proximity to the Wall.  It's ridiculous to suggest they are just wandering around for that long and not attacking.  I guess you could argue they are "waiting" for winter, but they seem to be able to bring that with them. 

 

Dorne, I think, joins a Queen's Alliance with Dany.  Dany and Elia both have ample reason to hate the Lannisters and to team together for past alliances.

[Mike Sixel]

Is that where Varys went? Dorne?

 

Brock, that's fair on Dorne. To the earlier point on the thread....it's just another place, far away, that is like a string that was pulled and is now not part of the story. 

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

?

 

I think everyone agrees a dragon can kill the white walkers.....the question is, how can they fight the dragons? Because if they can't, well, that sounds like that part of the story could be kind of boring just watching them hover (how?) over the field and burning all the zombies and white walkers.

 

I'd be more concerned about Danny not really caring about the WW until it's too late.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Littlefinger started this whole thing and basically controls the strongest army.  If he somehow becomes Warden of the North, he'll basically control 2 of the 7 kingdoms.

 

He's playing the game of thrones.  You either win or you die, and I think he dies.