GOT season six (spoilers galore)

[Brock Beauchamp]

The music was awesome the entire episode. It should win some award just for that, imo.

The music in the first 15 minutes was some of the best mood-setting I've seen in television.

 

The rest of the episode was good but damn, those first 15 minutes...

 

After a powerful scene, I often turn to my wife and say "How much better would that have been without music?" I hate overuse of thematic scoring but it was done brilliantly in this episode.

[Mike Sixel]

Huh, I kind of like the alliance building and politics....

 

And, I'm not even asking for more of that, I'm just suggesting, I don't see how Varys got there, sold an alliance, and got back......that's all.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Huh, I kind of like the alliance building and politics....

 

And, I'm not even asking for more of that, I'm just suggesting, I don't see how Varys got there, sold an alliance, and got back......that's all.

My point was badly stated.

 

Political intrigue and alliance-building/breaking can and will continue to happen but this story needed to set the table for the end game. And it did that quite well, in my opinion.

 

Having a dozen broken factions isn't where this story should be right now... It's too late in the series for that to continue. There are between 15-20 episodes left in the story and we've barely scratched the White Walker story. Daenerys still hasn't invaded Westeros.

 

This episode could have been called Unification. There are now four power brokers in or heading to Westeros: Daenerys, the South, the North, and King's Landing (or the Middle, I guess). On top of that, there are wild cards in Brienne, Arya, Littlefinger, Bran, the Iron Islands, and The Hound. In that group, there is still plenty of room for intrigue and betrayal and I expect that to happen in season seven (and maybe even eight). On top of all that, there is the Big Bad Enemy whom we've barely seen.

 

The latest episode required the death of a half-dozen major-to-middling characters to make it work. It was unfortunate that four major powers with their own motivations had to die but given how this series went into a holding pattern for so long, I don't know how else they could have handled it. Unlike the Red Wedding - where one power faction died - this episode had the deaths of Margerie, Tommen, the Sparrow, and Walter Frey. Those were four unique powers that were just getting in the way of what needed to happen.

 

On top of that, Dorne and Highgarden had to be brought back into the story or all those minutes/pages would have been a waste. Using a bit of teleportation here and there to reduce two dozen major characters to just over a dozen or so was the right move, IMO.

 

Now we can get into the part of the story we've wanted to see for 3+ seasons: the war for the Westeros throne followed by the war for Westeros itself.

 

And I don't see how it could have happened without killing characters wholesale and playing fast and loose with the timeline because I sure as **** didn't want to see the continuation of the seasons 4/5 storylines bleed into season seven.

[Mike Sixel]

Oh, I agree with you, they needed to (and I think Levi has been saying this) get to less locations/teams in play.

 

And, I have no issue with Varys in Dorne (I think I predicted that), I just don't see how he got back that fast. A nit......very small nit.....in a great episode. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

Who kills Cersei? It is Jamie or Dorne/Highgarden?

 

I'm still betting on Jamie. I've thought his character arc ended with the death of Cersei ever since he lost his hand and made that pact with Brienne.

[TheLeviathan]

My money is on Arya killing Cersei.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Oh, I agree with you, they needed to (and I think Levi has been saying this) get to less locations/teams in play.

 

And, I have no issue with Varys in Dorne (I think I predicted that), I just don't see how he got back that fast. A nit......very small nit.....in a great episode. 

 

You're right that it feels off.  And it feels that way because the first four seasons (I think, at least the first three) were happening on a relatively equivalent frame of time.  At least it felt that way.

 

It seems like this season they didn't do that.  And that's fine, they sacrificed time continuity for story continuity.  I accept that as the better choice, just takes a little getting used to.  I'm guessing next season we go back to things in the north and south being parallel.  It was tying up all these floating threads that forced the "teleporty" feel.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

My money is on Arya killing Cersei.

Another possibility but I think the story would be better if Jamie did it. His character made such enormous strides through books 2-4 and then stalled out... I think it'd be a bit of a betrayal of the character if he wasn't the one to kill the thing he loves most in the world: his sister.

 

I think Cersei will do something terrible (or try to do something terrible) and Jamie will stop her. After the death of Tommen, I think Jamie finally sees his sister for what she is. His character was 90% of the way there already.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Another question:

 

Dorne appears to *finally* be doing something, which is good... But remove Dorne from the story entirely. Does anything really change? Highgarden could wage the coming war by themselves given how weak King's Landing is now.

 

I still think Dorne was the biggest misstep in the series. I'm glad they're being woven into the story now but I still don't see the point of them existing at all.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Another question:

Dorne appears to *finally* be doing something, which is good... But remove Dorne from the story entirely. Does anything really change? Highgarden could wage the coming war by themselves given how weak King's Landing is now.

I still think Dorne was the biggest misstep in the series. I'm glad they're being woven into the story now but I still don't see the point of them existing at all.

 

That's like 1/4th of the books....

 

not sure the show changes at all, except we don't get one of the more entertaining characters...

[TheLeviathan]

 

Another possibility but I think the story would be better if Jamie did it. His character made such enormous strides through books 2-4 and then stalled out... I think it'd be a bit of a betrayal of the character if he wasn't the one to kill the thing he loves most in the world: his sister.

 

I think Cersei will do something terrible (or try to do something terrible) and Jamie will stop her. After the death of Tommen, I think Jamie finally sees his sister for what she is. His character was 90% of the way there already.

 

I think, unfortunately, Cersei is sort of the end-game of both characters.  Killing Walder Frey doesn't complete Arya's mission, but I see your point about Jamie too.

 

Maybe Jamie decides not to save her when he knows she is done for and Arya levels the killing blow?  I'm not sure, it's an interesting predicament.

 

Dorne is a cool story and Oberyn was a necessary piece to it.  Their involvement from this point I think has more to do with Westeros unifying behind Dany.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Dorne is a cool story and Oberyn was a necessary piece to it.  Their involvement from this point I think has more to do with Westeros unifying behind Dany.

Oberyn was the one character in the Dorne storyline that I really liked.

 

He died in book three.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Who kills Cersei? It is Jamie or Dorne/Highgarden?

 

I'm still betting on Jamie. I've thought his character arc ended with the death of Cersei ever since he lost his hand and made that pact with Brienne.

 

There are days I want it to be jaime....there are days I want to hate him since he's willing to kill an entire planet to have sex with 1 woman. Remember his speech....same speech Cersei gave, just a different list of things that are the goal. 

 

There are days I want it to be someone else, but that list changes.....Arya, the Hound (though he probably kills his brother, freeing someone else to kill Cersei), Sansa (hahahahahaha), not sure.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Oberyn was the one character in the Dorne storyline that I really liked.

 

He died in book three.

 

I think that's my thought also.....not sure how I feel about the sand snakes, since I can't recall the books anymore, it has been so long.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I think, unfortunately, Cersei is sort of the end-game of both characters.  Killing Walder Frey doesn't complete Arya's mission, but I see your point about Jamie too.

Another option is for Arya to kill Cersei and then Jamie to kill Arya.

 

Actually, that could lead to a pretty great scene. The audience wants to see both characters live.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I think that's my thought also.....not sure how I feel about the sand snakes, since I can't recall the books anymore, it has been so long.

I found them too chaotic and childish to care about. They're largely one-dimensional and just kinda evil; not exactly the type of character I want to follow or cheer for a prolonged period of time.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

There are days I want it to be someone else, but that list changes.....Arya, the Hound (though he probably kills his brother, freeing someone else to kill Cersei), Sansa (hahahahahaha), not sure.

Ooh, good point. I could easily see Arya hooking up with the Hound and then blazing a trail to King's Landing to kill Cersei and the Mountain.

 

Actually, this just keeps getting better.

 

Arya kills Cersei, the Hound kills the Mountain, Jamie kills the Hound, Arya and Jamie square off.

 

I'd watch that episode. Probably twice.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I found them too chaotic and childish to care about. They're largely one-dimensional and just kinda evil; not exactly the type of character I want to follow or cheer for a prolonged period of time.

 

I could be ok with them as villains of some kind....but I generally agree, they were very one dimensional and chaotic neutral/evil.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I could be ok with them as villains of some kind....but I generally agree, they were very one dimensional and chaotic neutral/evil.

They're basically the Mountain without a Cersei to point them in a more complex and intriguing direction. Or, in comic book terms, they're Harley Quinn. Fun characters you want to follow for awhile but only if they're alongside something with more depth and/or ambition (the Joker).

 

Those characters have their uses but they really need someone to complement their motivations... And the Snakes killed everybody else. But now that they're allied with Highgarden, they could have their puppetmaster again.

[gunnarthor]

Cercei will be killed by her younger brother - Jaime.  

 

As for Dorne, I've actively enjoyed the Dorne stuff in the books but the show has been just horrible for it. I think it's pretty clear the show runners didn't know what to do with it after it caught up with the books.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Ooh, good point. I could easily see Arya hooking up with the Hound and then blazing a trail to King's Landing to kill Cersei and the Mountain.

 

Actually, this just keeps getting better.

 

Arya kills Cersei, the Hound kills the Mountain, Jamie kills the Hound, Arya and Jamie square off.

 

I'd watch that episode. Probably twice.

 

I don't know, could Arya or the Hound get over that "ending" to their relationship?

 

Here is a "theory" I don't believe......Varys is working the Qyburn, and they programmed the mountain to kill Cersei at some point (just throwing this out for fun, I don't believe it for a minute).

[PseudoSABR]

Tremendous finale.  Really.  

 

I think Cersei will end being far more competent than her immediate predecessors.  Her need to scheme and eliminate threats from within is largely at an end.  I just don't think the shows producers are going to continue to set up Kings Landing as some house of cards which can easily be toppled.  

Will Jaime be hand of the Queen? An interesting role for him vis-a-vis his little bro.

 

I think Melissandre, Arya, and the Brotherhood will have their own entangled storyline next season--amounting to what? I'm not sure.  I imagine that Melissandre, now further south, will sound the alarm on the threat beyond the wall.  

 

I think Gendry will emerge as a factor, now that Cersei is on the thrown; which brings to the question, on what authority or right does Cersei have the Iron Throne? Is she a usurper?  Are all the Baratheon's dead; shouldn't one of Robert's blood relatives technically be next in line? Or is there some precedence (within the books) for a Queen-mother to rule after her King-child has died?  

 

The teleporting Varys didn't bother me.  Evidently, redditors spotted Terrell ships in Dany's fleet.  The occasional time-stamp would be helpful: "months later" printed on screen or "weeks before".  Such time-stamps would only be needed for great aberrations from an episodes plot.  It feels a bit lazy, but I'm with Levi and Brock, favor narrative over logistics. 

 

I have other thoughts, but not enough time to get them out in one post...

[Mike Sixel]

Tyrell ships would explain the size....was wondering about that. Is it better to send more ships, though? Wouldn't a combo land/sea (and I know they can still attack from land) attack be better?

 

I think Cersei tries to "burn them all", and Jaime kills her, then himself. Most of the combatants die, leaving Dany and 2 of the dragons to join the fight in the North with about 1/3 her army.*

 

*I don't know if I think that, it just occurred to me. I gave it as much thought as it took to type. Like about 1/2 my posts here.....

[Brock Beauchamp]

I assumed the larger fleet was due to the commandeered fleet of the Masters.

 

And I was looking at the flags, trying to figure things out... Then I realized I have no idea what ANY of the flags look like for the various families and stopped.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I assumed the larger fleet was due to the commandeered fleet of the Masters.

And I was looking at the flags, trying to figure things out... Then I realized I have no idea what ANY of the flags look like for the various families and stopped.

 

Well, there were no Lions or Wolves....does that help?

[TheLeviathan]

There were Tyrell ships (rose), Martill ships (sun spear), Greyjoy flags, and Targ flags.  It was the full armada of the alliance.

[TheLeviathan]

The Dornish plot-lines in the book were largely non-sensical too.  Princes and Princesses trying desperately to marry someone so Doran had allies rather than just letting natural alliances happen as they would.  

 

Not to mention most of those plotlines revolve around a character cut out of the show that will probably ruin the narrative's impact and drama to begin with.  (Fake Aegon)

[Mike Sixel]

 

The Dornish plot-lines in the book were largely non-sensical too.  Princes and Princesses trying desperately to marry someone so Doran had allies rather than just letting natural alliances happen as they would.  

 

Not to mention most of those plotlines revolve around a character cut out of the show that will probably ruin the narrative's impact and drama to begin with.  (Fake Aegon)

 

If we stopped reading the books because of non-sensical plot lines, well, not sure how far we would have made it......I seem to remember liking the Dorne parts, mostly.

 

Really, there are like 3-5 book series in this series.....but they are all mashed into one.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Well, there were no Lions or Wolves....does that help?

No, because those are the only two flags I recognize.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Of all places, ArsTechnica wrote up a piece that mirrors pretty much everything Levi, Mike, and I have been saying about the series:

 

http://arstechnica.com/the-multiverse/2016/06/game-of-thrones-sixth-season-provided-what-the-show-sorely-needed-motion/