Changes to rule(s) pertaining to breaking up the DP

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Wow, I think the Jays fans are right to be pissed (Atlanta fans, too).  If that's the new rule, we're a lot closer to the Japanese version of the game than I thought.  We'll see how umps are dealing with this in a few weeks but if this indicative of the how the new rule will affect games, that's pretty bad.

It will only "affect games" like this for a few weeks while everybody adjusts.  By next season, you won't even notice its effects -- guys just won't blatantly grab infielder's feet, or slide well beyond second base.

 

Were you also decrying the new rule a few years ago about home plate collisions?  It was big news when it first started getting enforced, but now it's old hat, everybody has adjusted and nobody much cares.

[formerly33]

Wow, I think the Jays fans are right to be pissed (Atlanta fans, too).  If that's the new rule, we're a lot closer to the Japanese version of the game than I thought.  We'll see how umps are dealing with this in a few weeks but if this indicative of the how the new rule will affect games, that's pretty bad.

 

Sorry, bud; I hate to disappoint, but this has nothing to do with the new rule:

 

Under the new Rule, a runner will have to make a "bona fide slide," which is defined as making contact with the ground before reaching the base, being able to and attempting to reach the base with a hand or foot, being able to and attempting to remain on the base at the completion of the slide (except at home plate) and not changing his path for the purpose of initiating contact with a fielder.

 

And nah, I wouldn't say the Jays fans have a right to be pissed. The enforcement of established rules is part of the game.

[biggentleben]

As an aside, I wish the TB second baseman had gone back on the field after the call, paused to watch the Toronto bench for 10 seconds with a smirk on his face, threw his glove 20 feet in the air, and then slowly jogged back to his dugout.

 

You know...had "fun."

Because that's exactly the same spirit and moment of Bautista's bat flip. Jeez, man, come back from the ledge please, because you're going way off the cliff trying (poorly) to make a point.

[biggentleben]

Wow.

 

They are calling this extremely tight. I'm really not sure how I feel about this one. And I definitely don't want to see middle infielders turning into finger pointers like Murphy did.

This is a story much bigger outside of the game than inside it. Murphy was trying to cover his butt for his poor defense and not turning the DP, and Markakis admitted he had a terrible slide that likely cost the team the game. The players know, and it's due to the fact that Markakis had no way to stay on the base, even though he stayed in the base line. Any tee ball player knows you can't run through second or third base; the new rule just spells it out more clearly.

[Mike Sixel]

Not every T-ball player, as a one time coach, I can promise you that......

[tobi0040]

 

Not every T-ball player, as a one time coach, I can promise you that......

 

I had my daughters first K-1 track practice Monday (as a coach).  One of the girls told me she didn't want to run.

 

So I agree with Mike.  We are giving a little too much credit here.  Somewhere between tee ball and the big's this is learned though.

[nicksaviking]

 

Ya, he clearly reached out and grabbed the second baseman's leg there. That was just plain and simple interference, and had nothing to do with the new rule. Now, maybe w/o the new rule, he tries a different way to take out the player, and the new rule actually worked.....

 

I agree, the only reason we are talking about this is because Bautista likely changed his slide to conform to the new rule, last year he would have tried to kick the 2B, now because it is implicitly not allowed, he likely thought, what the hell, I'll give this way a try.

 

Obviously grabbing the defender is interference, and it's almost certainly why guys have (had) historically tried to break up slides with their feet, using your hands to tackle the defender was clearly a no-no. If it wasn't people would have been breaking up DPs with their arms, not their legs all along.

[zenser]

I truly wonder if Bautista had not reached out to touch Forsythe if this would have been overturned. 

 

In an ESPN article it stated this, Replay umpires in New York ruled Bautista's slide was not directly into the bag and it illegally hindered Forsythe. The call was changed to a game-ending double play that preserved Tampa Bay's victory.   I, personally, don't like how that is worded saying Bautista's slide was not directly into the bag.  I thought he slide hard and into the bag.  His right leg went over the bag in fact.

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/15145584/toronto-blue-jays-manager-john-gibbons-fumes-new-rule-cost-game

 

[biggentleben]

 

Not every T-ball player, as a one time coach, I can promise you that......

 

My brothers and I and my nephew are my reference points....so I suppose I may be exaggerating just a touch based on personal experience, but it doesn't mean they haven't HEARD that instruction anyway. Whether they register it is another thing.

[biggentleben]

 

I truly wonder if Bautista had not reached out to touch Forsythe if this would have been overturned. 

 

In an ESPN article it stated this, Replay umpires in New York ruled Bautista's slide was not directly into the bag and it illegally hindered Forsythe. The call was changed to a game-ending double play that preserved Tampa Bay's victory.   I, personally, don't like how that is worded saying Bautista's slide was not directly into the bag.  I thought he slide hard and into the bag.  His right leg went over the bag in fact.

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/15145584/toronto-blue-jays-manager-john-gibbons-fumes-new-rule-cost-game

 

Not directly into the bag also includes going past the bag by definition.

[gunnarthor]

 

It will only "affect games" like this for a few weeks while everybody adjusts.  By next season, you won't even notice its effects -- guys just won't blatantly grab infielder's feet, or slide well beyond second base.

 

Were you also decrying the new rule a few years ago about home plate collisions?  It was big news when it first started getting enforced, but now it's old hat, everybody has adjusted and nobody much cares.

I think we have a different view of "blatantly" (or in spycake's view "egregious")  I don't think his arm affected the throw at all.  We'll see how people adjust (including umps) but I think the first two calls mean we are looking a lot more like the Japanese version of the game than I thought we would be.  I'm sure everyone will get used to it but it seems a bit sad to me.  As Mike says, YMMV.

[nicksaviking]

 

I think we have a different view of "blatantly" (or in spycake's view "egregious")  I don't think his arm affected the throw at all. 

 

Should it matter if it affected the throw if the intent was clearly to affect the throw?

 

Personally, breaking up a double play is really, really low on my list of things that I would miss about baseball if it disappeared.

[T.C.]

The issue for me is that it looks like the runner would have been safe at first even if Bautista hadn't touched the second baseman and what Bautista did couldn't hurt him. So no harm no foul... right?

[Mike Sixel]

 

The issue for me is that it looks like the runner would have been safe at first even if Bautista hadn't touched the second baseman and what Bautista did couldn't hurt him. So no harm no foul... right?

 

That's not how the rule reads.....there is no discretion. Interfere, outs will result, whether it mattered or not.

[gunnarthor]

 

Should it matter if it affected the throw if the intent was clearly to affect the throw?

 

I think it should.  Yesterday, Carlos Correa clearly ran out of the base paths to affect a throw and was rewarded, despite it being against the rules.  So we're in this ugly situation of a bunch of "eye-of-the-boholder" calls, only some are reviewable in NY and some aren't.  

 

I understand that some people don't think a baserunner should try and break up a double play but I'm not one of them.  I would miss that about the game. 

[DaveW]

The Bautista over turn was so stupid. It wasn't over the top like Utley etc

 

It shouldn't be a reviewable play to begin with, good lord baseball games go long enough without these stupid reviews. The only time IMO you should get "punished" is when you don't even touch the base when breaking up a slide.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I understand that some people don't think a baserunner should try and break up a double play but I'm not one of them.  I would miss that about the game. 

Baserunners can still try and break up double plays, and they will.  They just won't be able to go far out of their normal path (i.e. sliding way past the base) to do it.  I think breaking up DPs now will actually take more skill than before, and should be more fun to watch.  But, I know you disagree.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

The only time IMO you should get "punished" is when you don't even touch the base when breaking up a slide.

So a drop-kick that lets you land near enough to the base that you can reach it with your hand is cool?

 

Is it really too much to ask that the runner STAYS on the base?

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

So we're in this ugly situation of a bunch of "eye-of-the-boholder" calls, only some are reviewable in NY and some aren't.  

 

 

It shouldn't be a reviewable play to begin with, good lord baseball games go long enough without these stupid reviews. 

 

Instant replay reviews are largely a separate problem, and should be treated as such.  Given the current rule construction, the umps on the field probably want to err on the side of "least harm done" so they call the runner safe, and will let their colleagues and/or replay officials overturn it if they want.  It would be much harder to undo an initial automatic out call.

[T.C.]

 

That's not how the rule reads.....there is no discretion. Interfere, outs will result, whether it mattered or not.

I understand that. But if it didn't influence the outcome, it shouldn't influence the outcome. That's why I disagree with how it was handled last night. The MLB shouldn't complicate it, just let the umpires use a little discretion on those judgement plays, that's why they're there.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

So we're in this ugly situation of a bunch of "eye-of-the-boholder" calls, only some are reviewable in NY and some aren't.  

 

Exactly. I would add it's already turning into a ticky-tack, finger pointing play which managers will begin challenging and guys in New York will be ruling on instead of the umpires.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Players and umpires are still adapting.  I think the challenges/replays/appeals will die down.

 

In 2014, there were 92 "home plate collision" challenges:

http://baseballsavant.com/apps/replays.php?ddlTypes=home-plate%20collision&ddlTeams=&ddlGameDate=&ddlChallenger=teamchallenging&ddlYear=2014

 

In 2015, there were only 27:

http://baseballsavant.com/apps/replays.php?ddlTypes=home-plate%20collision&ddlTeams=&ddlGameDate=&ddlChallenger=teamchallenging&ddlYear=2015

 

I expect we will soon see a similar effect in 2nd base takeout slide challenges.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

So a drop-kick that lets you land near enough to the base that you can reach it with your hand is cool?

Yeah, you know, dropkicks, roundhouse kicks, folding chairs over the head, the types of slides you see all the time at second base.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

The issue for me is that it looks like the runner would have been safe at first even if Bautista hadn't touched the second baseman and what Bautista did couldn't hurt him. So no harm no foul... right?

If the throw had no chance of beating the runner, why would Bautista try to grab the fielder's ankle?

 

Even if such discretion was allowed, I think you are over-rating the likelihood of the runner being safe at first.  This wasn't some kind of desperation attempt that the infielder was using to deke Bautista.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Players and umpires are still adapting.  I think the challenges/replays/appeals will die down.

 

In 2014, there were 92 "home plate collision" challenges:

http://baseballsavant.com/apps/replays.php?ddlTypes=home-plate%20collision&ddlTeams=&ddlGameDate=&ddlChallenger=teamchallenging&ddlYear=2014

 

In 2015, there were only 27:

http://baseballsavant.com/apps/replays.php?ddlTypes=home-plate%20collision&ddlTeams=&ddlGameDate=&ddlChallenger=teamchallenging&ddlYear=2015

 

I expect we will soon see a similar effect in 2nd base takeout slide challenges.

Whether the base runners feel it's fair or not, it will be on them to change their behavior.

 

I hope you are right that managers don't get too carried away with challenges on this!

[USAFChief]

 

I think it should.  Yesterday, Carlos Correa clearly ran out of the base paths to affect a throw and was rewarded, despite it being against the rules.  So we're in this ugly situation of a bunch of "eye-of-the-boholder" calls, only some are reviewable in NY and some aren't.  

 

I understand that some people don't think a baserunner should try and break up a double play but I'm not one of them.  I would miss that about the game. 

So nothing should be reviewable?  Not HRs, not fair/foul?  Not out/safe on a force play?  Or should everything be reviewable?  

 

 

Also...Who thinks a baserunner shouldn't break up a DP?

 

 

[biggentleben]

 

Players and umpires are still adapting.  I think the challenges/replays/appeals will die down.

 

In 2014, there were 92 "home plate collision" challenges:

http://baseballsavant.com/apps/replays.php?ddlTypes=home-plate%20collision&ddlTeams=&ddlGameDate=&ddlChallenger=teamchallenging&ddlYear=2014

 

In 2015, there were only 27:

http://baseballsavant.com/apps/replays.php?ddlTypes=home-plate%20collision&ddlTeams=&ddlGameDate=&ddlChallenger=teamchallenging&ddlYear=2015

 

I expect we will soon see a similar effect in 2nd base takeout slide challenges.

 

This...

[Thrylos]

 

   I, personally, don't like how that is worded saying Bautista's slide was not directly into the bag.  I thought he slide hard and into the bag.  His right leg went over the bag in fact.

 

 

Unless he has legs on his butt, this is not true.  Only his rear end grazed the bag, while he was doing the hand tackling thing.  His slide was a full body width to the left of the bag.

 

Love these rules, but they have to fine 10% checks the umpires who refuse to enforce them.  The guy was looking at it and did not call it.   If umpires have no accountability rules will never get enforced. 

[gunnarthor]

 

So nothing should be reviewable?  Not HRs, not fair/foul?  Not out/safe on a force play?  Or should everything be reviewable?  

 

 

Also...Who thinks a baserunner shouldn't break up a DP?

Man, I'd like to trade some of my wood for all that wheat you apparently have ...

 

If these two plays are indicative of how the rules will be enforced, I think any hard slide when the throw is a bit late will be in violation of the rule.  We will see.

[alskntwnsfn]

 

Man, I'd like to trade some of my wood for all that wheat you apparently have ...

 

Are we still doing phrasing?