Colorado Springs Shooting

[Mike Sixel]

Given that supposedly black friday gun sales set some sort of record, I don't see this changing any time soon......

 

Brock, I am worried about storage space....if we start a thread after every shooting, will TD be able to handle it?

[Squirrel]

 

It's hard for me to get any good information right now, I saw a "social services center" - has there been any clarity as to what that means?  

 

But yeah, I don't know what it's going to take to shift how we think about guns in America.  I would've thought a slaughtered bunch of 6 year olds at school would do it but we don't seem to have any initiative to change on this.

It's a center that provides services for development disabled persons. Here's the NPR report ... but not much really in there ... other than it still is being called 'active' ...

 

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/12/02/458196942/active-shooter-situation-reported-in-san-bernardino-calif

[Squirrel]

I've been reading what I could find, but there is no confirmed source ... but unconfirmed is 1-3 shooters with maybe rifles, and 20 or more victims, including fatalities. Again ... don't know what's true or not, and the NPR story even says it's chaos and that many reports out there may be wrong or misleading.

[TheLeviathan]

Center for people with developmental disabilities?  Good lord the depths of violence in the human soul just know no limits.  

 

If true we'd have people with mental illness and health needs being helped, attacked god knows what reason.  Truly sad.

[Squirrel]

I have friends in the LA area who have been posting local news on their FB pages ... it's just madness. The end will be when we are all dead. Yeah, I know ... exaggeration and hyperbole ... but honestly ... what. the. ****.

[formerly33]

Exaggeration? I don't know...

 

And don't jump to any conclusions about me, but I think that all the talk about us needing to establish safer gun laws without actually doing anything is only giving gun nuts motivation to set new sales records. It all started with good intentions, of course, but now it seems to be backfiring.

[DaveW]

In LA currently, very somber feeling around here tonight.

 

Domestic Terrorism at it's finest, let's not do this to try to fix this ****, but by all means let's ban all refugees...

[Squirrel]

 

In LA currently, very somber feeling around here tonight.

 

Domestic Terrorism at it's finest, let's not do this to try to fix this ****, but by all means let's ban all refugees...

Geez, Dave ... you know how to hit the spots ... Paris, LA ... where to next?

 

[PseudoSABR]

 

Domestic Terrorism at it's finest, let's not do this to try to fix this ****, but by all means let's ban all refugees...

We don't know what the motive was and whether they are American citizens or not, yet.   Although, the target doesn't make sense for Islamic-related terrorism, there's other evidence that suggests it could be. 

 

Whether it is or not, the Syrian refugees probably aren't to blame.

[DaveW]

 

Geez, Dave ... you know how to hit the spots ... Paris, LA ... where to next?

I mean LA is a big place, we were in Irvine and Santa Monica, my brother lived in San Bernadino last summer though.

 

The sad thing is, this **** is happening every week, throw a dart on a map and it will probably happen there.

[DaveW]

 

 

We don't know what the motive was and whether they are American citizens or not.   Although, the target doesn't make sense for Islamic-related terrorism, there's other evidence that suggests it could be.  

 

Whether it is or not, the Syrian refugees probably aren't to blame.

I was being sarcastic with the refugee comment..

 

They said earlier today they were highly likely to be American citizens and it wasn't "terrorism"

[TheLeviathan]

There are a lot of rumors floating around, it's refreshing to see the police doing their best to withhold speculation until they gather more concrete evidence.

 

Crazy.

[glunn]

Query why this happens so much more in our country than other countries.  I believe that the answer lies there.

 

We have the technology and resources to provide every child with a great education, to nip problems in the bud while people are children and part of the school system and to provide counselling to anyone who needs it.  Instead, we spend outlandish amounts on "defense" and inefficient social programs, and much of the world fears/hates us.  

 

There are millions of Americans who are unemployed or underemployed.  Many of these people could be trained to become good social workers, counselors, caretakers for the elderly and disabled.  Instead, we squander trillions of dollars on stupid wars and weapons systems that will not be effective.  I am happy to pay huge amounts in taxes so that people have food and housing, but I would rather see them have jobs that will make everyone's lives better.

 

I think that we should cut the defense budget, root out other government waste and offer a new deal to all Americans.  If you are willing to work hard, then we will guarantee you a job that will allow you to have a decent and safe place to live, healthy food, health care and a basic cable.   We have plenty of work that needs to be done and plenty of people who need work.  Instead, we waste hundreds of billions of dollars every year and tens of millions of people live miserable lives.

 

I see bits on TV where they ask young people questions like "who was Abraham Lincoln?"  Some of them have no clue.  Maybe technology has made our people stupid, but I think that we should insist that every school district add a class where kids are taught about violence and the consequences of violence.  It could start with cave people and cover all of the worst incidences of violence over history, including genocides, conquests and religious persecutions.  It could also teach how violence begets violence and tends to pass from generation to generation.  It could include exercises where students act out scenarios to test nonviolent solutions to conflicts.  I am not saying that such classes would eliminate all violence, but it seems to me that we should try something like this.  

 

Or we could hope for the asteroid.

 

 

[DaveW]

 

There are a lot of rumors floating around, it's refreshing to see the police doing their best to withhold speculation until they gather more concrete evidence.

 

Crazy.

Confirmed, the shooter was a US citizen and an employee at the location, they had AR-15's, I know you like to throw out.

 

Feel free to tell us how gun control is a pointless endeavor in America.

[glunn]

 

Confirmed, the shooter was a US citizen and an employee at the location, they had AR-15's, I know you like to throw out.

 

Feel free to tell us how gun control is a pointless endeavor in America.

I don't think that it's pointless, but there are so many guns now in circulation that it may take decades to make it difficult for bad people to get them.  Also, guns are not the only way to commit mass murder.  I think that we should come at this from every direction.

[Craig Arko]

BBC World News opened its broadcast about the massacre by announcing, soberly, that it was "just another day in the United States of America: another day of gunfire, panic and fear."

 

The land of the free; the home of the brave. Where are you now? We could use your help.

[drjim]

Query why this happens so much more in our country than other countries. I believe that the answer lies there.

 

We have the technology and resources to provide every child with a great education, to nip problems in the bud while people are children and part of the school system and to provide counselling to anyone who needs it. Instead, we spend outlandish amounts on "defense" and inefficient social programs, and much of the world fears/hates us.

 

There are millions of Americans who are unemployed or underemployed. Many of these people could be trained to become good social workers, counselors, caretakers for the elderly and disabled. Instead, we squander trillions of dollars on stupid wars and weapons systems that will not be effective. I am happy to pay huge amounts in taxes so that people have food and housing, but I would rather see them have jobs that will make everyone's lives better.

 

I think that we should cut the defense budget, root out other government waste and offer a new deal to all Americans. If you are willing to work hard, then we will guarantee you a job that will allow you to have a decent and safe place to live, healthy food, health care and a basic cable. We have plenty of work that needs to be done and plenty of people who need work. Instead, we waste hundreds of billions of dollars every year and tens of millions of people live miserable lives.

 

I see bits on TV where they ask young people questions like "who was Abraham Lincoln?" Some of them have no clue. Maybe technology has made our people stupid, but I think that we should insist that every school district add a class where kids are taught about violence and the consequences of violence. It could start with cave people and cover all of the worst incidences of violence over history, including genocides, conquests and religious persecutions. It could also teach how violence begets violence and tends to pass from generation to generation. It could include exercises where students act out scenarios to test nonviolent solutions to conflicts. I am not saying that such classes would eliminate all violence, but it seems to me that we should try something like this.

 

Or we could hope for the asteroid.

I have a simpler thought. There are lots of people in this country, a small percentage are crazy, and they have way too easy access to powerful weapons that can do significant damage.

 

I don't buy more counseling or better education will do much. Those that engage in mass shootings likely already have plenty of access to these services.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Confirmed, the shooter was a US citizen and an employee at the location, they had AR-15's, I know you like to throw out.

 

Feel free to tell us how gun control is a pointless endeavor in America.

 

Holy crap Dave, you still haven't processed what I said?

 

I get we all want to say "Enough, tougher gun laws!" and as I've always said - I'm super cool with that.  But now let's talk reality.

 

Guns are freaking everywhere.  Are you going to pass laws to take those from people?  If not, as glunn correctly points out, it's going to take a LONG time to reduce the proliferation in our country.  And any law that demands people turn over their guns is going to be a total non-starter.  

 

And that's not even the hardest part.  The hardest part is that the strongest force in this conversation politically is the NRA and they have BOTH parties in their pocket.  You won't even get an effective bill passed in this country no matter what happens.  This was horrible, but we had a classroom of 6 year olds slaughtered and nothing budged.  You think this is going to change that?

 

What is "pointless" is the rhetoric that thinks you can just pass some laws and fix this.  That assumes (incorrectly in my opinion) that you can even get the laws passed and ignores the enormous proliferation already in existence. 

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the only way we're going to fix this is to neuter the NRA and attack the very idea of the gun in our country.  We need a whole scale attack on the gun in the same way we attacked the cigarette.  We turned a staple of American life into a cancer-ridden death stick.  It took some time but we totally changed the perception of the cigarette.  In so doing we greatly reduced the influence of the tobacco industry (it's still tough, but nowhere near what it was).  We can't have meaningful laws passed or reduce the existing proliferation until we get the populace to truly believe the gun is the problem. 

 

So yeah, pass whatever meager, weak law you can pass in the wake of this.  I'm fine with that, I don't care for guns at all.  But don't fool yourself into thinking that the current climate is going to pass anything with real teeth.  That's going to take something bigger.

[DaveW]

 

I don't think that it's pointless, but there are so many guns now in circulation that it may take decades to make it difficult for bad people to get them.  Also, guns are not the only way to commit mass murder.  I think that we should come at this from every direction.

I don't think its an overnight solution, and yes it would take time, however if you close the gun show loophole, and make it ILLEGAL to sell to anyone without a background check, I think you could see some results somewhat early on, and yeah, Im fine with it taking decades, this isn't about my generation, its about my future kids and their kids generation, isn't what this is all about?

Also, you are correct, guns aren't the only way to commit mass murder, they make it a helluva easier though, especially assault rifles and the like.

[Squirrel]

 

I don't think that it's pointless, but there are so many guns now in circulation that it may take decades to make it difficult for bad people to get them.  Also, guns are not the only way to commit mass murder.  I think that we should come at this from every direction.

I find this kind of argument infuriating and a HUGE part of the problem. 'Guns are everywhere. We can't stop it now. I don't want to give up my own and no one's taking it from me. And there are other ways to commit mass murder.' I like what you said about what we need as a society in your previous post above, and yes, that also would be a huge step forward and a BIIIIIIIIG part of the equation. But it goes hand in hand along with the need to start addressing gun ownership and accessibility in this country. The laws do need to made stricter and loopholes need to be closed. There is NO REASON for people to own certain types of guns and the quantities that they do. Absolutely none. Automatic and semi-automatic guns ... no. Background checks should be an absolute must ... no matter to whom, how or where a gun is purchased. No one should be able to walk into a gun store and walk out with a gun the same day. And if you sell illegally? TOUGH PENALTIES. If you are caught with an illegal firearm? TOUGH PENALTY. I have never been opposed to responsible gun ownership. But the more this goes on, and the more I hear people say what you just did, the more I want to say no gun ownership. I think your attitude on that is a really huge part of the problem.

 

And on top of this ... it's time to crack down on the hate rhetoric. That will be the toughest because I have no idea how to do that. We do not have a right to solve our disagreements by 'making a statement' with a gun. With the help of some prominent voices, we have given license and encouragement to those with guns to go out and kill.

 

And yes ... NO SOLUTION WILL BE EASY. And every solution will take its toll and will take time. But doing nothing and starting no where because we can't budge from some of our thinking and attitudes will change nothing.

[Squirrel]

 

 

Confirmed, the shooter was a US citizen and an employee at the location, they had AR-15's, I know you like to throw out.

 

Feel free to tell us how gun control is a pointless endeavor in America.

Dave, I appreciate your stance on this issue, and am pretty lock-step with you. But let's address other posters here with respect and civility.

 

Everyone, please, let's stop generalizing and characterizing other posters' comments. Let's stop taking absolutism to where we refuse to acknowledge another's opinion even if we think it's ... whatever we think it to be. Disagree with one another all you want, but let's not make comments that dismiss others, give your thoughtful reasons.

[DaveW]

 

 And if you sell illegally? TOUGH PENALTIES. If you are caught with an illegal firearm? TOUGH PENALTY. I have never been opposed to responsible gun ownership. But the more this goes on, and the more I hear people say what you just did, the more I want to say no gun ownership. I think your attitude on that is a really huge part of the problem.

Nailed it. For the people who say this "couldn't possibly work" do a little digging on what happened in NYC once they enforced tough penalties for gun ownership (illegal) and illegal dealing. Pretty sure the gun death rate went down several times the murder rate was cut in half.

[TheLeviathan]

glunn wasn't saying "do nothing", that reaction to his comments is what has to stop.  I got the same crap for pointing out reality.

 

Pass laws.  Please.  Go for it.  Do whatever you can.

 

But don't think that the existing proliferation isn't a HUGE part of the problem and will continue to be for a long time.  I think you completely misrepresented what glunn said.  It was a statement of fact about how things are and how that is a huge part of the problem AND it's true.

 

It wasn't a statement about what to do, it was about how things are.

[DaveW]

 

 

Dave, I appreciate your stance on this issue, and am pretty lock-step with you. But let's address other posters here with respect and civility.

 

Everyone, please, let's stop generalizing and characterizing other posters' comments. Let's stop taking absolutism to where we refuse to acknowledge another's opinion even if we think it's ... whatever we think it to be. Disagree with one another all you want, but let's not make comments that dismiss others, give your thoughtful reasons.

Noted, I didn't think it was to far out of line, and me and Lev are "fine" and have had these discussions before, but will keep an eye on it in the future.

[Squirrel]

 

 

glunn wasn't saying "do nothing", that reaction to his comments is what has to stop.  I got the same crap for pointing out reality.

 

Pass laws.  Please.  Go for it.  Do whatever you can.

 

But don't think that the existing proliferation isn't a HUGE part of the problem and will continue to be for a long time.  I think you completely misrepresented what glunn said.  It was a statement of fact about how things are and how that is a huge part of the problem AND it's true.

 

It wasn't a statement about what to do, it was about how things are.

Levi, glunn made no suggestion on that whatsoever. In fact ended his comment with a line I've heard far too often 'Guns are not the only way to commit mass murder.' To me that signals his attitude is that we can't do much with the gun proliferation in this country and it is an attitude that needs to get turned around somehow, someway. Yes, he said we need to come at this from all angles ... but there was nothing in any of his statements about addressing the issue of this proliferation. It seemed very secondary to me and I think it needs to be primary.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Levi, glunn made no suggestion on that whatsoever. In fact ended his comment with a line I've heard far too often 'Guns are not the only way to commit mass murder.' To me that signals his attitude is that we can't do much with the gun proliferation in this country and it is an attitude that needs to get turned around somehow, someway. Yes, he said we need to come at this from all angles ... but there was nothing in any of his statements about addressing the issue of this proliferation. It seemed very secondary to me and I think it needs to be primary.

 

Maybe I was just unclear about which line you were taking issue with.  I agree, the "mass murder" one is not one I appreciate either.  

 

I don't know how we deal with proliferation.  I mean, I'd love to say - report to your local police station and turn in your guns.  But that's just not going to happen.  And we can't knock down doors and take them.

 

So how do you deal with that other than winning the culture war and time?

[DaveW]

 

Maybe I was just unclear about which line you were taking issue with.  I agree, the "mass murder" one is not one I appreciate either.  

 

I don't know how we deal with proliferation.  I mean, I'd love to say - report to your local police station and turn in your guns.  But that's just not going to happen.  And we can't knock down doors and take them.

 

So how do you deal with that other than winning the culture war and time?

Every little bit helps, you gotta start somewhere.

Closing the gun sale loophole and making background checks mandatory are a good start. If you are caught buying a gun illegally or selling a gun illegally (i.e. from some dude's trunk, house, etc) without the proper background check then you get 2 years in jail minimum, no questions asked. Again, it worked for New York, it can work anywhere.

 

Obama put it best: people who are on the do not fly list can currently legally and very easily go buy an assault rifle. Something doesn't compute there.

[TheLeviathan]

Sure those little bits do help, but they aren't likely to make a signficant impact.  Not on what is already out there.

 

And no, New York is not the same as everywhere.  In part because most places wouldn't even get that law passed.

[DaveW]

 

Sure those little bits do help, but they aren't likely to make a signficant impact.  

 

And no, New York is not the same as everywhere.  In part because most places wouldn't even get that law passed.

I said if it can work in New York, it could work anywhere.

Also, you don't know they won't make an impact until you try, at least TRY to do something.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I said if it can work in New York, it could work anywhere.

Also, you don't know they won't make an impact until you try, at least TRY to do something.

 

You're going down that road again.  I'm not against trying things, I'm just talking reality.  In the majority of the country that law never even sees the light of day.