Colorado Springs Shooting

[DaveW]

 

You're going down that road again.  I'm not against trying things, I'm just talking reality.  In the majority of the country that law never even sees the light of day.

Don't give the majority of the country the right to squash that law then. They have done it before in terms of DUI law (legal limits etc)

[Squirrel]

 

Maybe I was just unclear about which line you were taking issue with.  I agree, the "mass murder" one is not one I appreciate either.  

 

I don't know how we deal with proliferation.  I mean, I'd love to say - report to your local police station and turn in your guns.  But that's just not going to happen.  And we can't knock down doors and take them.

 

So how do you deal with that other than winning the culture war and time?

I don't know, really. But it seems to me we do need to address ownership first and foremost. And yes, it might mean turning in your guns, but it should also mean very strict penalties, too. And these laws just cannot be state by state. Most of the guns that come into Chicago come in from states with greater accessibility. And maybe this is a spit in the ocean, or whatever analogy you want to use, but we can argue all we want about what will work and won't, but we won't know until we do it and until we allow for time to achieve it. Sigh.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Don't give the majority of the country the right to squash that law then. They have done it before in terms of DUI law (legal limits etc)

 

That's just not how our country works and the NRA is too powerful to let this be an exception.  Just my opinion.  Feel free to push for someone to try it though.

[DaveW]

 

I don't know, really. But it seems to me we do need to address ownership first and foremost. And yes, it might mean turning in your guns, but it should also mean very strict penalties, too. And these laws just cannot be state by state. Most of the guns that come into Chicago come in from states with greater accessibility. And maybe this is a spit in the ocean, or whatever analogy you want to use, but we can argue all we want about what will work and won't, but we won't know until we do it and until we allow for time to achieve it. Sigh.

Yeah the Chicago situation is especially frustrating, you can drive like 15 minutes to Indiana and buy whatever assault rifle etc you want with ease at a gun show etc

 

This sort of change has to come from the federal level at some point.

[DaveW]

 

 

That's just not how our country works and the NRA is too powerful to let this be an exception.  Just my opinion.  Feel free to push for someone to try it though.

It has worked before in issues of public safety (alcohol, tobacco etc)

 

Yes, the NRA is a huge problem, but in this country the power will always belong to the people, if enough people voice opinions/vote and we get some fearless politicians in office, change can happen.

[Squirrel]

 

Yeah the Chicago situation is especially frustrating, you can drive like 15 minutes to Indiana and buy whatever assault rifle etc you want with ease at a gun show etc

 

This sort of change has to come from the federal level at some point.

That's one of the reasons the police here are so frustrated. Even they have said they want stricter laws. Well, the ousted chief said that ... but let's not go down that path, that's a separate issue. Life is just so ****ed up.

[TheLeviathan]

 

It has worked before in issues of public safety (alcohol, tobacco etc)

 

Yes, the NRA is a huge problem, but in this country the power will always belong to the people, if enough people voice opinions/vote and we get some fearless politicians in office, change can happen.

 

The NRA represents a lot of people and the truth is that there is a STRONG segment of the population that doesn't agree with you and me about guns and laws and what has to change.  They don't think anything needs to change.  In fact, they'd rather double down.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I think Levi is right in that the only way this changes significantly is with a culture shift. Some segments of this nation have been sold the line "guns are the only way to protect yourself" for generations and they've bought into the idea whole-heartedly. Unfortunately, in many cases the more viciously a person stays true to that idea, the less that person should own a gun at all.

 

The more paranoid and radical the person, the more likely they are to believe gun ownership is a necessity. And paranoid, radical people are the last people we want owning guns in a civilized society.

 

How do we fix that? I don't know. We need to figure out how to make these people less radical and paranoid but given how the far right has been feeding off that paranoia for years now, I'm not sure how we do that.

 

A normal person sees these mass shootings and is horrified. They accept what we're doing is terrible and needs to change.

 

Whereas some elements of the far right see these mass shootings and are convinced the only solution is more guns. It's lunacy.

 

We can't fix the problem until we convince the most radical right elements of our society that "more guns" is not the solution. We've been trying "more guns" for years and the problem is only getting worse.

[TheLeviathan]

Well said Brock.  We can all sit here and agree that more laws and tougher laws are good.  But for every one of us there is someone putting their money where there mouth is with the NRA and funding the idea that more guns are the solution.

 

A classroom of first graders was slaughtered and we heard teachers need guns.  And a lot of freaking people believed that!  A LOT of people.

[DaveW]

 

I think Levi is right in that the only way this changes significantly is with a culture shift. Some segments of this nation have been sold the line "guns are the only way to protect yourself" for generations and they've bought into the idea whole-heartedly. Unfortunately, in many cases the more viciously a person stays true to that idea, the less that person should own a gun at all.

 

For generations people were also against gay marriage and GLBT community in general, we as a country were able to come a long ways in the last 10 years or so. I believe we can come a long ways on this issue as well.

The problem is the unintelligent people who believe the NRA and politicians lies of "Obama is coming to take your guns" Which he has never tried, or thought to do. Every time even background checks get brought up, the far right leaders and NRA cry "This is step one in taking your guns and your rights!" instead of actually telling something that resembles the truth of the situation.

How ANYONE can be against background checks and closing to gun show loophole is just mind boggling to me.

[Brock Beauchamp]

One thing that could help the situation shift in the right direction is to see police unions and fire departments come out strongly in favor of gun legislation.

 

Put conservatives at odds with themselves. Make them choose between their beloved police departments and their beloved firearms. That could help swing some of the less radical gun owners away from the NRA and their destructive lobbying.

[Squirrel]

 

One thing that could help the situation shift in the right direction is to see police unions and fire departments come out strongly in favor of gun legislation.

 

Put conservatives at odds with themselves. Make them choose between their beloved police departments and their beloved firearms. That could help swing some of the less radical gun owners away from the NRA and their destructive lobbying.

The police here have said that. But as I said earlier, any laws regarding gun legislation MUST be national. State by state doesn't work. Especially not here.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

For generations people were also against gay marriage and GLBT community in general, we as a country were able to come a long ways in the last 10 years or so. I believe we can come a long ways on this issue as well.

The problem is the unintelligent people who believe the NRA and politicians lies of "Obama is coming to take your guns" Which he has never tried, or thought to do. Every time even background checks get brought up, the far right leaders and NRA cry "This is step one in taking your guns and your rights!" instead of actually telling something that resembles the truth of the situation.

How ANYONE can be against background checks and closing to gun show loophole is just mind boggling to me.

Gay marriage isn't written into the Bill of Rights. While that doesn't seem like a big deal to you or me, these people worship the Constitution. It gives this lunacy legitimacy, at least in their eyes.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

The police here have said that. But as I said earlier, any laws regarding gun legislation MUST be national. State by state doesn't work. Especially not here.

If the police unions are going to have an impact, they need to aggressively lobby for gun legislation on the national level. It's easy for conservatives to shrug off police unions from Chicago, NYC, etc. as just more "liberal nonsense". We need to see police unions across the country - specifically the Bible Belt - join in the fight.

[Squirrel]

 

If the police unions are going to have an impact, they need to aggressively lobby for gun legislation on the national level. It's easy for conservatives to shrug off police unions from Chicago, NYC, etc. as just more "liberal nonsense". We need to see police unions across the country - specifically the Bible Belt - join in the fight.

And it's doubtful that will happen, and we are back to doing nothing. This is part of the hopelessness I see in the situation.

[Squirrel]

Here's an interesting article. I don't know the source, but I trust the person who posted it ... very bright, very reasonable, and someone who really looks to all sides in discussions, and not someone I agree with on everything. It's filled with all kinds of charts and graphs and such. Some very interesting data to note, none of which is truly surprising. Conclude what you will.

 

http://www.vox.com/2015/8/24/9183525/gun-violence-statistics

 

"But America's relationship with guns is unique in another crucial way: Among developed nations, the US is far and away the most violent — in large part due to the easy access many Americans have to firearms."

 

 

 

 

[formerly33]

 

You're going down that road again.  I'm not against trying things, I'm just talking reality.  In the majority of the country that law never even sees the light of day.

One could argue that reality just comes down to the masses sitting back, legs crossed, atheists waiting for an asteroid to destroy the world and religious groups waiting for a god to save the world.

 

Which brings us nowhere.

 

So, meanwhile, why not discuss solutions? And I'd like to point out that, for instance, the 13th amendment wasn't supposed to ever see the light of day either. If you didn't like slavery, you were just supposed to free your own and not worry about other people since it was none of your business and it wouldn't work anyway. And that's essentially the same attitude people like to take about gun control.

[Musk21]

I can't really disagree with this take.  Something needs to change.  We're not going to get rid of all gun violence, but we must do something to significantly reduce it.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sara-benincasa/dear-america-heres-your-gun-solution_b_8707916.html

 

[Hrbowski]

 

One could argue that reality just comes down to the masses sitting back, legs crossed, atheists waiting for an asteroid to destroy the world and religious groups waiting for a god to save the world.

 

Which brings us nowhere.

 

So, meanwhile, why not discuss solutions? And I'd like to point out that, for instance, the 13th amendment wasn't supposed to ever see the light of day either. If you didn't like slavery, you were just supposed to free your own and not worry about other people since it was none of your business and it wouldn't work anyway. And that's essentially the same attitude people like to take about gun control.

There is quite a difference. People were never given the right to own slaves in the constitution, well the 2nd amendment is quite clear that we have the right to keep and bear arms.

[TheLeviathan]

I have talked solutions: we need to win the war of ideas. We have to change the minds of those who think arming teachers or others to solve massacres is stupid.

 

Right now there are millions that passionately believe that and fund the NRA to make that a reality.

[formerly33]

 

There is quite a difference. People were never given the right to own slaves in the constitution, well the 2nd amendment is quite clear that we have the right to keep and bear arms.

I'd care to remind you that the Constitution isn't the Bible.

 

But since it is to some, it states that "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

 

I don't recall anyone, least of all myself, saying that guns should be completely eradicated. We're talking about safer gun laws. There's a difference.

 

But if you really are worried about the government taking control of your life, I'll sit back and watch while you hash it out with the military. That's one fight I'm not willing to join in, gun laws or no gun laws.

 

And by the way, sure, people may never have been given the right to own slaves in the Constitution, but you tell me how long it was before people were actually granted the right to NOT be slaves.

[Squirrel]

 

I have talked solutions: we need to win the war of ideas. We have to change the minds of those who think arming teachers or others to solve massacres is stupid.

Right now there are millions that passionately believe that and fund the NRA to make that a reality.

Absolutely and amen. Yes. Part of the problem in talking solutions, is people right away people start characterizing others' suggestions in terms of absolutes, i.e. 'we want better/stricter gun laws' becomes 'we want to take all your guns away.' It's not going to be a swift and easy turnaround, but the propaganda machines on both sides aren't helping with any proposed solutions.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Absolutely and amen. Yes. Part of the problem in talking solutions, is people right away people start characterizing others' suggestions in terms of absolutes, i.e. 'we want better/stricter gun laws' becomes 'we want to take all your guns away.' It's not going to be a swift and easy turnaround, but the propaganda machines on both sides aren't helping with any proposed solutions.

 

Oh I wouldn't say both sides.  The NRA propaganda mean is ruthlessly effective.  It doesn't matter what stupid thing they say that the rest of us go "Really...WTF?".....there are millions who respond to taht same idea with "Hell yeah!  Ain't nobody taking my gun!"

 

It can't be said enough how strong that notion is out there.  It's why any kind of national gun law is going to be extremely hard to pass and anything that might get passed is likely to be toothless.

 

We've got to get more people shifted from "Hell yeah!" to "WTF?" every time the NRA talks.  That's going to take time and a blitzkrieg against our notion of the gun.  But it has to happen.

[Hrbowski]

 

I'd care to remind you that the Constitution isn't the Bible.

 

But since it is to some, it states that "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

 

I don't recall anyone, least of all myself, saying that guns should be completely eradicated. We're talking about safer gun laws. There's a difference.

 

But if you really are worried about the government taking control of your life, I'll sit back and watch while you hash it out with the military. That's one fight I'm not willing to join in, gun laws or no gun laws.

 

And by the way, sure, people may never have been given the right to own slaves in the Constitution, but you tell me how long it was before people were actually granted the right to NOT be slaves.

The most interesting thing is that the deadliest shootings happened in the states with the strictest gun laws: Connecticut, Oregon, California etc.

 

This article is written from a pretty unbiased point of view, and comes to the conclusion that nothing changes:

 

http://www.mintpressnews.com/the-facts-that-neither-side-wants-to-admit-about-gun-control/207152/

 

Now how about the constitution? I think that the constitution is the greatest legal document written by man, not because of the goodness of the founding fathers, but rather because it insures our right to be a free, sovereign nation, run by the people, and for legal changes to be made to fix our problems, but also making sure we don't lose our rights in the process.

 

And by the way, I don't know why you think I want to be part of a civil war, because I never dreamed of saying or writing anything that would suggest that.

[DaveW]

Again, states with a strict "gun control" policy doesn't really fix the issue when someone can simply drive a few minutes (or hours) to a neighboring state and buy any gun they want at a gun show. This has been shown time and time and time and time and time again in Chicago (Indiana)

 

Change needs to come from a federal level. It's going to take a ton of work from everyone, but I think a good start would be to close the gun show loophole and make a mandatory national background check for all new purchases moving forward.

[Craig Arko]

Data is good. Data is our friend.

 

 

http://www.startribune.com/where-u-s-mass-shootings-happened-in-2015/360467241/

[formerly33]

 

Now how about the constitution? I think that the constitution is the greatest legal document written by man,

Then capitalize it.

 

...not because of the goodness of the founding fathers, but rather because it insures our right to be a free, sovereign nation, run by the people, and for legal changes to be made to fix our problems, but also making sure we don't lose our rights in the process.

 

And by the way, I don't know why you think I want to be part of a civil war, because I never dreamed of saying or writing anything that would suggest that.

I was referring to the general GOP attitude that we all need to be armed with AR-15s to protect ourselves from potential democratic takeover.

 

That said, I've heard people say that our founding fathers would roll over in their graves if they knew how immoral our country is just a few centuries later. I suppose they'd get off their tummies and dance for joy quick enough when they heard the news that any crazy wacko is completely enabled (and one could even go so far as to add encouraged) to "protect" themselves and their people by opening fire outside of PP?

 

Yeah...it makes sense to me.

 

And hey, I think it'd only be illegal to try to moderate gun sales if they took away our right to keep and bear arms. Think of how difficult it can be to prove that you're worthy of being an American citizen, all to protect the people. Why can't it be just as difficult to prove that you're worthy of owning a gun, this to also protect the people?

[Hrbowski]

 

Then capitalize it.

 

I was referring to the general GOP attitude that we all need to be armed with AR-15s to protect ourselves from potential democratic takeover.

 

That said, I've heard people say that our founding fathers would roll over in their graves if they knew how immoral our country is just a few centuries later. I suppose they'd get off their tummies and dance for joy quick enough when they heard the news that any crazy wacko is completely enabled (and one could even go so far as to add encouraged) to "protect" themselves and their people by opening fire outside of PP?

 

Yeah...it makes sense to me.

 

And hey, I think it'd only be illegal to try to moderate gun sales if they took away our right to keep and bear arms. Think of how difficult it can be to prove that you're worthy of being an American citizen, all to protect the people. Why can't it be just as difficult to prove that you're worthy of owning a gun, this to also protect the people?

No Republican believes that we need to be armed with AR-15s to protect themselves from "potential democratic takeover" and since you obviously don't know what you are talking about, maybe you shouldn't talk about it.

 

Your comment about the founding fathers is absolutely immature, since of course they wouldn't be rejoicing, and another, they have no evidence that the attack on Planned Parenthood was encouraged by anyone.

 

And no, it would not only be illegal to moderate gun sales by taking away the right to keep and bear arms, not anymore than it would only be illegal to moderate religion, or book sales etc. by taking away the right to exercise freedom of religion and the press.

 

Anyways, if the only gun control you propose is having to be an American citizen, I don't think that will do any good, but none of it would.

[TheLeviathan]

The problem with the "right to bear arms" is that it has become the "right to bear whatever high octane weaponry I think is kick ass"

 

I'm ok with people owning hunting rifles and things like that.  But people are able to purchase weapon caches the Punisher would be proud of.  

[formerly33]

 

No Republican believes that we need to be armed with AR-15s to protect themselves from "potential democratic takeover" and since you obviously don't know what you are talking about, maybe you shouldn't talk about it.

 

Your comment about the founding fathers is absolutely immature, since of course they wouldn't be rejoicing, and another, they have no evidence that the attack on Planned Parenthood was encouraged by anyone.

 

And no, it would not only be illegal to moderate gun sales by taking away the right to keep and bear arms, not anymore than it would only be illegal to moderate religion, or book sales etc. by taking away the right to exercise freedom of religion and the press.

 

Anyways, if the only gun control you propose is having to be an American citizen, I don't think that will do any good, but none of it would.

I don't remember proposing that, but you're deliberately missing the point so I won't explain.

 

It's quite refreshing to hear that you're the only person in this conversation who knows what he/she is talking about.

 

And if sarcasm is immature, yuuup.