Another school shooting (Oregon) - Ho hum

[PseudoSABR]

...and nothing (or as little as possible) will be done to limit high-magazine semi-automatic weapons or to sincerely address mental health.

 

I'm ashamed by how desensitized I've become to this phenomenon.   

 

That said, best wishes to the families of the victims--their lives are inextricably changed.

[Mike Sixel]

Shocking that making it easier to get guns leads to more use of guns. Just. Shocking.

 

And, yes, NOW is the time to talk about it. There is no better time, frankly.

[TheLeviathan]

I really don't think gun laws are all that effective, particularly in these cases.

 

I'm convinced the real issue is a culture born on the gun that celebrates and makes it sexy and powerful.  

 

It's not laws that will fix that.  (If anything can)

[Mike Sixel]

I really don't think gun laws are all that effective, particularly in these cases.

 

I'm convinced the real issue is a culture born on the gun that celebrates and makes it sexy and powerful.  

 

It's not laws that will fix that.  (If anything can)

the rest of the world, that has a lot less shootings than us, disagrees.

[ashbury]

... limit ... weapons or to sincerely address mental health.

Honestly, it flabbergasts me that some of the most sincere advocates (and I realize that my response here is not to someone in that group) for the individual liberty that they see represented in the Second Amendment, would push any aspect at all of Mental Health as the way forward to avert these tragedies.

 

They're afraid of what the government might do to them if they don't have their guns. But they're not afraid of what the government might do if given widely expanded powers to decree, 'you, Sir, need to be institutionalized"?

 

[Mike Sixel]

Also, all those people who want guns to fight tyranny......how do those people feel about black rioters fighting racism and murder by police? Let's not pretend that there is much deep thought on this topic, here....

[Vanimal46]

The shooting happened in Roseburg, OR. A little town of 20,000 people. The company I work with helps Roseburg Forest Products with their hiring needs.. This is tragic.

[USAFChief]

Tragic.  Words are inadequate.  

 

Prayers and condolences to all involved.  

 

Don't know about you, but since I can't hug my kids tonight, I'm going to call all three and tell them how much I love them.  I'd hate to lose that opportunity not having taken it.

 

 

 

[DaveW]

The worst part about this is, it doesn't even surprise me anymore. This **** is just so common place these days, clearly nothing will ever change re: gun laws that actually prevent this, people are just too far dug into their stupid NRA stances (Duurrrrr 2nd amendment Durrr) that nothing significant will change.

 

The only thing we can do now is to refuse to give the killer any sort of meanigful press/notieriety. That is the only way to at least help curb these lone crazy murder suicide guys. STOP GIVING THEM PRESS.

[TheLeviathan]

 

the rest of the world, that has a lot less shootings than us, disagrees.

 

I don't think the rest of the world is a good argument.  Within our own borders these laws are shown to have a negligible effect on gun violence.  How our country started and the close relationship it has had with guns makes us a very unique situation.  We're better off comparing state and municipal ordinances on guns and see how effective they are.  Most studies seem to indicate the effect is difficult to pin down and varies significantly from place to place.

 

The problem isn't the availability of guns, the problem is our nation's notion of what the gun is.  Because of that notion, we find ways to make guns available regardless of the laws and it completely changes the way in which we use them and react to them.

 

If you want to pass more restrictive laws, I could really care less.  I'm just telling you it won't be as effective as you think because it isn't the root of the problem.

[Vanimal46]

The worst part about this is, it doesn't even surprise me anymore. This **** is just so common place these days, clearly nothing will ever change re: gun laws that actually prevent this, people are just too far dug into their stupid NRA stances (Duurrrrr 2nd amendment Durrr) that nothing significant will change.

 

The only thing we can do now is to refuse to give the killer any sort of meanigful press/notieriety. That is the only way to at least help curb these lone crazy murder suicide guys. STOP GIVING THEM PRESS.

They haven't released the identity of the shooter yet, and I hope the press takes the high road and refuse to release that information.

[Mike Sixel]

I don't think the rest of the world is a good argument.  Within our own borders these laws are shown to have a negligible effect on gun violence.  How our country started and the close relationship it has had with guns makes us a very unique situation.  We're better off comparing state and municipal ordinances on guns and see how effective they are.  Most studies seem to indicate the effect is difficult to pin down and varies significantly from place to place.

 

The problem isn't the availability of guns, the problem is our nation's notion of what the gun is.  Because of that notion, we find ways to make guns available regardless of the laws and it completely changes the way in which we use them and react to them.

 

If you want to pass more restrictive laws, I could really care less.  I'm just telling you it won't be as effective as you think because it isn't the root of the problem.

Uh, restrictions in Chicago aren't going to work if I can drive 5 minutes and buy a gun. That's pretty lazy, imo, in terms of arguments.

 

Of course there are other issues, but the top issue is, imo, it is really easy to get a gun. Really, really easy.

 

"the US is unique", that's the same argument against socialized medicine and any other thing that most of the right doesn't want. It's a weak argument. People and societies change, look at how much changed with gay marriage in the last 10 years. If we wanted to, really wanted to, we could change gun beliefs and laws.

 

I know I have a zero percent chance of changing anyone's mind here.

[DaveW]

The shooter apparently posted on 4chan, which of course means that the 'conversation' surrounding this shooting won't be mental health, gun control or how to fix these things, it will be all about internet censorship. Mark my words.

[TheLeviathan]

Uh, restrictions in Chicago aren't going to work if I can drive 5 minutes and buy a gun. That's pretty lazy, imo, in terms of arguments.Of course there are other issues, but the top issue is, imo, it is really easy to get a gun. Really, really easy."the US is unique", that's the same argument against socialized medicine and any other thing that most of the right doesn't want. It's a weak argument. People and societies change, look at how much changed with gay marriage in the last 10 years. If we wanted to, really wanted to, we could change gun beliefs and laws.I know I have a zero percent chance of changing anyone's mind here.

We are criminalizing all sorts of things that are still readily available everywhere. You think we can stop that with guns anymore than weed?

 

Look, I hate the NRA, can't stand conceal and carry, and have no interest in owning a gun. I'm just identifying the real problem: our culture of guns. Change that. It's just going to be hard as hell, but nothing short of that is going to work.

[ashbury]

The shooting happened in Roseburg, OR. A little town of 20,000 people. The company I work with helps Roseburg Forest Products with their hiring needs.. This is tragic.

Spent the night there, as a way-stop on a road trip to Seattle this past summer. Doesn't mean anything, just brings it home somehow.

[Mike Sixel]

We are criminalizing all sorts of things that are still readily available everywhere. You think we can stop that with guns anymore than weed?

 

Look, I hate the NRA, can't stand conceal and carry, and have no interest in owning a gun. I'm just identifying the real problem: our culture of guns. Change that. It's just going to be hard as hell, but nothing short of that is going to work.

the purpose of a gun is to kill. the purpose of weed, not so much.

[TheLeviathan]

the purpose of a gun is to kill. the purpose of weed, not so much.

Im confused by how that makes it easier to eliminate trafficking and supplying illegal goods.

[Mike Sixel]

I don't want to give up, just because "it won't work". We've never really tried.

[Mike Sixel]

Im confused by how that makes it easier to eliminate trafficking and supplying illegal goods.

It works for guns in other countries, it doesn't work for drugs. Maybe it is cultural.....but not trying seems like the worst idea to me.

[PseudoSABR]

 

We are criminalizing all sorts of things that are still readily available everywhere. You think we can stop that with guns anymore than weed?

Last I checked I can't manufacture near automatic weapons under a heat lamp in my basement. 

 

The availability of guns is part and participle of the culture that demands that availability.   One way to deal with the mindset that unreasonably desires bigger, faster guns is to make bigger, faster guns illegal.  Laws have political function as well as enforcement function; sending the message that we don't approve these kinds of killing machines would certainly help delegitimize that the attitude that desires them.  

[DaveW]

 

I don't want to give up, just because "it won't work". We've never really tried.

Agreed. It has worked in NYC very well.

 

Owning a gun legally isn't impossible, but it requires a lot of time, lot of paper work and a decent amount of money (plus you have to prove you have a legit reason for owning one) if you get caught with an illegal gun in NYC? 2-3 years in jail, no plea, no nothing. You get caught, you goto jail.

 

It isn't just a conicidence that shootings/murders have gone down like 300% since these came into effect.

[DaveW]

 

 

Last I checked I can't manufacture near automatic weapons under a heat lamp in my basement. 

 

The availability of guns is part and participle with the culture that demands that availability.   One way to deal with the mindset that unreasonably desires bigger, faster guns is to make bigger, faster guns illegal.  Laws have political function as well as enforcement function; sending the message that we don't approve these kinds of killing machines would certainly help delegitimize that the attitude that desires them.  

Heat lamp? No, but you can now use a 3D printer to make guns and assault weapons, but again that takes a lot of effort and "skill" and money.  They HAVE to make guns harder to obtain, at the very least.

[Mike Sixel]

the other option is we keep doing what we've been doing, and throw up our hands and do nothing. That seems to be working well.

 

the right will fight against culture changes, law changes, education changes, anything that threatens the right to shoot someone if they want.

[PseudoSABR]

 

But they're not afraid of what the government might do if given widely expanded powers to decree, 'you, Sir, need to be institutionalized"?

I'm not sure "liberty" has really belied the 2nd-amendment rally-cry so much as self-interest.  They want the laws they want and don't want the laws they don't want, and would rather put the crazies away institutions than give up their own toys.  To fear that the government might label you crazy, requires some abstract thinking that goes counter to narcissistic self-interest that really is at the heart of pro-automatic guns crowd.

 

And let's hope as society begins to address prevalent mental and emotional instability, we don't begin with presumption that institutionalization is good idea.  

[TheLeviathan]

 

It works for guns in other countries, it doesn't work for drugs. Maybe it is cultural.....but not trying seems like the worst idea to me.

 

Again, the very idea of the gun is different here.  When is the last action movie in America you've seen that isn't almost constant gunfire.  Foreign action films are dramatically less dependent on guns.  We have made guns sexy, powerful, cool, and all these other things.  That culture is what matters.

 

You can't turn around in our culture without guns being a part of our daily life.  They are part of children's shows, TV shows, advertisements, and on and on and on.  They are as engrained in America as apple pie.

 

Pass whatever laws you want, I don't care.  I'm just telling you that won't work like you think it will.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Last I checked I can't manufacture near automatic weapons under a heat lamp in my basement. 

 

The availability of guns is part and participle of the culture that demands that availability.   One way to deal with the mindset that unreasonably desires bigger, faster guns is to make bigger, faster guns illegal.  Laws have political function as well as enforcement function; sending the message that we don't approve these kinds of killing machines would certainly help delegitimize that the attitude that desires them.  

 

Not all drugs can be manufactured under a heat lamp either, don't intentionally miss the point because you don't like it.  You can't use the argument against illicit drugs that criminalization doesn't work and then turn around and expect it to be a magic elixir for gun violence.  That's not how it works.  

 

The availability of guns is a symptom of the problem.  We want them available and we make them available because people have the perception that they are the difference between safe and unsafe.  That to own one is cool.  That it makes you a man.  That walking around showing it off makes you sexy or cool.  That attitude is no more changed about guns than it is about drugs.  Criminals don't care about the law, they don't take subliminal messages about it to dictate their day to day life.  That isn't how it works.  

 

I'm telling you as someone that has worked with criminals in Chicago that the gun laws there, and the failures of them, have nothing to do about availability in nearby locations and everything to do with the perceived need to own and possess a gun at all times.  

 

Making a law against it isn't going to change that perception or the desire to obtain it.

[Mike Sixel]

Ya, let's just quit. That's working well. Nothing we do to stop this will be acceptable to those that worship guns like a false idol.

 

I'm not convinced that mass shooters and common street criminals are the same when it comes to access to guns being an issue.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Not all drugs can be manufactured under a heat lamp either, don't intentionally miss the point because you don't like it.  You can't use the argument against illicit drugs that criminalization doesn't work and then turn around and expect it to be a magic elixir for gun violence.  That's not how it works.  

 

The availability of guns is a symptom of the problem.  We want them available and we make them available because people have the perception that they are the difference between safe and unsafe.  That to own one is cool.  That it makes you a man.  That walking around showing it off makes you sexy or cool.  That attitude is no more changed about guns than it is about drugs.  Criminals don't care about the law, they don't take subliminal messages about it to dictate their day to day life.  That isn't how it works.  

 

I'm telling you as someone that has worked with criminals in Chicago that the gun laws there, and the failures of them, have nothing to do about availability in nearby locations and everything to do with the perceived need to own and possess a gun at all times.  

 

Making a law against it isn't going to change that perception or the desire to obtain it.

 

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/59775658.jpg

 

 

I didn't intentional ignore your point because I didn't like it; don't insult me.  It's obvious that if guns weren't manufactured legally they'd be harder to obtain, and even the most chemical complex drugs are probably easier to make and distribute than illegal weapons.  You come at the availability angle, you come at the mental health angle,  and you come at the culture angle.  You don't stop one because it is difficult (like changing a mindset for instance).

[TheLeviathan]

 

I didn't intentional ignore your point because I didn't like it; don't insult me.  It's obvious that if guns weren't manufactured legally they'd be harder to obtain, and even the most chemical complex drugs are probably easier to make and distribute than illegal weapons.  You come at the availability angle, you come at the mental health angle,  and you come at the culture angle.  You don't stop one because it is difficult (like changing a mindset for instance).

 

Look, I don't know if you and mike have comprehension issues today or what, but i'll say it a third time:  Pass whatever laws you want.  Go ahead and see if they help.  I'm just telling you it's highly unlikely they will unless you're willing to go farther and not just limit guns but impose stop and frisk and a variety of other programs most people against guns also bitch about.  That includes more media and entertainment censorship.  More restrictive laws for those with mental health issues.  And more aggressive policing.

 

I have had unique experiences working with actual criminals.  Have you?  I don't like the conclusions it lead me to, but I'm not going to be in denial of them either.  Criminalization isn't going to have the effect people want.  Pass whatever laws you want, I could care less. (Fourth time if you're keeping score) It's just not going to work any more than criminalizing drugs limited the availability of those.  

 

Illegal weapons trafficking is happening already, to the tune of billions of dollars, just fine even in a legal environment.  And drugs, illegal in all forms, are freely available to half-wit burnouts and teenagers.  The truth is that criminalization is just not all that effective as a deterrent.  

[Mike Sixel]

then we do what, just let the gun worshippers have their way, and live with gun deaths and give up?

 

I'm waiting for one of the right wingers to come in here with an idea.....anyone?